True Lies

[(Q)]

You assume I will lie of course. But in my experience with children, telling them [for example] that their pet dog was brutally murdered by a psychopath is not really a useful sort of honesty.

The problem is you don't know when to stop. There is the little problem of settling conciliation's with lying, which is what you're trying to do with your posts. You lie when you debate anything as this it the way you would settle a conciliation.

No one cares about your ridiculous paradoxes you contrive about pet dogs and such. Irrelevant to the fact that your religion condones lying, which IS the point. And, it is an immoral religion that would do so.

 

[S.A.M.]

No one cares about your ridiculous paradoxes you contrive about pet dogs and such. Irrelevant to the fact that your religion condones lying, which IS the point. And, it is an immoral religion that would do so.

See? Even you lie.

Quran:

“O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in word and deeds).” (Quran 9:119)

“Woe unto those who give short measure, those who, when they are to receive their due from people, demand that it be given in full but when they have to measure or weigh whatever they owe to others, give less than what is due. Do they not know that they are bound to be raised from the dead (and called to account) on an awesome Day, the Day when all men shall stand before the Sustainer of all the worlds?” (Quran 83:1-6)

"Oh ye who believe! Eat not up each other's property by unfair and dishonest means." (4:29)

"Allah doth command you to render back your trust, to those to whom they are due."(4:58)

"Those who faithfully observe their trusts and their covenants."(24:8)

Prophet Hadiths:

"Remember, there is no faith in him who is not trustworthy; there is no place for him in religion who cares not for his pledged word or promise."

"He who cheats is not of us. Deceitfulness and fraud are things that lead one to Hell."

"Why did you not then keep (the wet portion of) it above the dry corn, so that men may see it? He who deceives, is not one of us."

“Truthfulness leads to righteousness, and righteousness leads to Paradise. In addition, a man keeps on telling the truth until he becomes a truthful person. Falsehood leads to wickedness and evil-doing, and wickedness leads to the (Hell) Fire, and a man may keep on telling lies till he is written before God, as a liar”.


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So tell me (Q), why do you lie?

 

[(Q)]

See? Even you lie.

So tell me (Q), why do you lie?

Tell me Sam, where did I lie?

Or, is this the kindergarten argument of, "I know you are, but what am I?"

And, considering you have already admitted your cult condones and promotes lying, why would now say such a thing?

Oh yes, because that's the way you discuss things.

Pathetic, Sam. But, at the very least, you and the other Muslims have taught us a great many things about your worldviews and how you "think" for use of a better term.

 

[Simon Anders]

ah
of course
the factoid is accompanied by a qualifier...... but/however/and/whatnot
the truthteller elaborates and emotes

i like it
a rather sophisticated honesty
it appears other, perhaps distinctive qualities are bundled into your def of honesty. compassion? empathy? integrity?

i must mull further

thank you, mr anders

You're welcome. I knew we could find the same page and that you would not hold a rigid line. This last is a rare quality. Very.

 

[iceaura]

So if you tell a lie to save someone's life, for example, this universally tends to do more harm than good? Diplomacy is a pointless exercise? Being brutally honest more useful?

No, the assertion is that those justifications for lying are used far more often than they apply, in any perspective except that of the liar. Meanwhile, the cost of the lying is incurred by all the lies, not merely the justified ones.

For example:

An example I think that's more in keeping with the intent of the quote in the OP would be the recent question of whether or not Turkey had commited genocide against the Armanians a hundred years ago.

In truth, it seems that they did. - - [but] - - . The greater good is served by, pretty much, brushing that ancient history aside.

SAM, do you believe the greater good has been served these past hundred years, by Turkey's lying and so forth ?

bbtw, on topic still:

People need their heros, especially children. Is it really important to point out every personal foible and misdeed of our heros?

And so we see that children should get their heroes and so forth from fiction, myths, stories, as has been traditional among the wise for thousands of years. And not from lies told about real, verifiable events and actual people.

 

[S.A.M.]

No, the assertion is that those justifications for lying are used far more often than they apply, in any perspective except that of the liar. Meanwhile, the cost of the lying is incurred by all the lies, not merely the justified ones.

For example: SAM, do you believe the greater good has been served these past hundred years, by Turkey's lying and so forth ?

No more or no less than Australians and Americans lying back and forth.

bbtw, on topic still: And so we see that children should get their heroes and so forth from fiction, myths, stories, as has been traditional among the wise for thousands of years. And not from lies told about real, verifiable events and actual people.

Yeah, myths have an important function in society. We grew up on the Ramayana and Mahabharata and Buddha. Compared to the history of the British occupation or the current war on terrrrorz, I think I learned more about values from mythology than I ever have from real actual people. Do you read bedtime stories to your kids or do you read the newspaper?

Morality and heroism itself, if considered objectively, are a myth, assigning accountability and demonstrations of free will in a society that is increasingly lacking both. Its why Harry Potter sells.

 

[Gustav]

This last is a rare quality. Very.

why, thank you again, mr anders
i had a vague and niggling suspicion that i was, in no small way, special!
your affirmation reinforces and lends credibility to that notion

ja
vague no more

/hoohah

 

[iceaura]

For example: SAM, do you believe the greater good has been served these past hundred years, by Turkey's lying and so forth ?
”
No more or no less than Australians and Americans lying back and forth.

So how much is that, more or less ?

From the liar's perspective, these are beneficial, justified lies. Do you agree ?

 

[Carcano]

What is the morality of such a statement? Is is evil to lie to support good or bring about conciliation in people?

"Those unwilling to lie...can't possibly know what the truth is."
-Neitzsche.

 

[S.A.M.]

So how much is that, more or less ?

From the liar's perspective, these are beneficial, justified lies. Do you agree ?

Its not, because they are not doing it for conciliation between the groups, but to steal their resources and avoid accountability.