Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Some Christians seem to have a similar flexibility around lying....
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1999/may24/9t6068.html
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1999/may24/9t6068.html
True Lies
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
That's interesting...
I remember speaking to a Mulsim friend many years ago and he told me that, according to the Muslim faith there is nothing more sacred than truth and he would sooner die than tell a lie.
That was what I respected most about Islam.
That is how it is supposed to work, but only from Muslim to Muslim. Us non-believers are not offered the same courtesies.
Fortunately it is perfectly fine to lie and deceive?
I find that sad.
Not only for you, but for me.
As I said, it was what I respected most about Islam and now I feel like I am mourning a bit.
Utter nonsense, and you know it.
Then again, you admitted that you lie to further the cause of your faith, so what is one to believe?
What you call pragmatism, I call justification. :shrug:
I think people are more important than any notion of truth. Truth itself is relative. If a man kidnapped your wife and asked you if you had informed the cops and a cop was standing right next to you, would you tell him? I think the Hadith, whether from the Prophet or not, is entirely correct. If your truth could result in someone else getting hurt, that truth is worse than a lie.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
She did? Perhaps I am viewing what she wrote too positively. My impression, partly influenced by earlier impressions of Islam, is that the general goodness of telling the truth can be overridden if it is righteous to do so. At no point have I gotten the impression, nor can I see it in this thread that SAM is saying lying is righteous per se. Only that, for example in the scenario with the person questioned about their being Jewish, lying can be moral. You admired the Jehovah's Witnesses for being honest about their beliefs despite facing death for that honesty. Could you, however, consider a non-Jewish German who said 'I do know the whereabouts of any Jews,' to a Nazi interrogator while knowing that he is hiding jews in his basement
someone who is being moral while lying?
The main issue I have is the fact that the passage includes the "conciliation of people" and is quite general and broad-reaching.
It is quite easy to take that as saying that propaganda is acceptable if the perpetrator believes his/her lies will bring about a greater good.
I disagree.
I also think it is quite easy to read that as stating lies are acceptible to convert people to your religion and bring people together under a common faith.
I disagree with that as well.
A simple statement which essentially says, "It is OK to lie for the greater good" I find reprehenisble because of man's uncanny ability to justify any means to reach his own ends.
Do I lie? No.
Do I find it immoral to lie? Yes.
Have I ever lied? Of course - I am not perfect.
I hold honesty quite high in my value system - but integrity higher.
If a corrupt officer for the secret police comes to my door looking for my mother, and I am fully aware that he is out to kill her, I will admit that lying serves the greater integrity.
There are very few scenarios in which I see any justification for lying, however, and "the greater good" is a a term that leaves the door wide open to interpretation and twisting means for justification.
It is quite easy to take that as saying that propaganda is acceptable if the perpetrator believes his/her lies will bring about a greater good.
I disagree.
I also think it is quite easy to read that as stating lies are acceptible to convert people to your religion and bring people together under a common faith.
I disagree with that as well.
A simple statement which essentially says, "It is OK to lie for the greater good" I find reprehenisble because of man's uncanny ability to justify any means to reach his own ends.
Do I lie? No.
Do I find it immoral to lie? Yes.
Have I ever lied? Of course - I am not perfect.
I hold honesty quite high in my value system - but integrity higher.
If a corrupt officer for the secret police comes to my door looking for my mother, and I am fully aware that he is out to kill her, I will admit that lying serves the greater integrity.
There are very few scenarios in which I see any justification for lying, however, and "the greater good" is a a term that leaves the door wide open to interpretation and twisting means for justification.
And there it is in a nutshell. What more reason than that is needed to eradicate Islam from the planet?
But, I'm sure I've heard something along those lines from other people...
Hitler: I am glad that Nazism puts the good of people above abstract notions of right and wrong.
Stalin: I am glad that Communism puts the good of people above abstract notions of right and wrong.
Pol Pot: I am glad that Dictatorship puts the good of people above abstract notions of right and wrong.
One can twist anything in any way, but I would rather have someone say, its okay to lie if it helps save a life, than consider it a sin to lie under any circumstances. Conciliation of people? Everyone lies for that. Its called diplomacy.
It's called lying and propaganda.
I think there isn't much of a greater transgression than lying to the masses and manipulation of people.
To each his own, however.
I agree.
Not all acts of conciliation are lying and propaganda, but I thought it was quite clear that I was referring to utilizing lies and propaganda as a method of conciliation of people.
Isn't that the point of this thread and discussion?
Was I really being that vague or are you purposely being disingenuous to "win"?
By the way, that is a quite modern, specific and legal definition of conciliation.
Are you quite sure that's what the prophet had in mind?
Look up the constitution of Medina.