Thread For Christians Only.

[SnakeLord]

1) Maybe you allready got your answer?

If I did, we would not be discussing this. The post that I responded to was the one that said: "To find god all you need to do is ask". I have not found god, although I have asked. As such the statement made By FreedomCry is false, and number 1 can safely be excluded.

2) Maybe you didn't really need the answer?

I really did need the answer. My son had just died.

3) Maybe God saw that the answer would do more harm to you than good?

Why? Could he not have made himself known to me and told me my child was in heaven? Of course you could be right though - perhaps my son is in hell, because as god clearly states in the bible: he punishes children for the sins of their fathers. While telling me he'd done that wouldn't make me like him, it would clarify his existence.

However, regardless to any of that number 3 would again shows FreedomCry's statement as false - and that's all I was debating against.

4).. maybe not but think that maybe the consequences you got from Him not answering were the consequences you should have had

So in other words: god wanted me to remain an atheist. Thus I am only an atheist because god wants me to be, and am doomed to hell because god wants me to be.

About the fourth one:
Maybe you haven't had the same experiance as I have, but sometimes I have made a choice not to do someones request because I've sensed that it might be bad for him, and afterwards I've felt like he was feeling that I let him down, and I have hoped that he understood that it was for his best.

A) You are completely irrelevant to the discussion. You are not an "all-loving" god, and nobody made the statement that "all you have to do is ask", with regards to you. If you go back you'll see my original post was that FreedomCry's statement was wrong. It still is wrong.

However, what you're saying is that all these atheists that have at one time or another asked for god to make himself known have been refused, (because god was worried that getting to know him would be a bad thing for them), are forced into remaining as atheists - and ultimately doomed to hell because of it. I thought hell was as bad as it gets, so the excuse that god wont say 'hi' because he think's it's bad for them is seriously weak.

Anyway, God won't show Himself to you at your command

And he wont show himself to you at your asking either - which is what my first post was all about - to debunk FreedomCry's claim of "all you have to do is ask". It's no longer a case of just asking, indeed no - you have added all kinds of qualifying criteria to it: from waiting for a decade to somehow thinking that an eternity of hell is less "harmful" to me than god saying 'hi'.

and remember not to test God.

So now asking god to come to you is testing him? This guy seemingly has a whole load of excuses for remaining non-existant. But then perhaps it's not him, but just you?

I'm sure if I had have come in this post stating how I asked for god and he came down and filled my heart with joy, you'd be telling me how awesome god is and that he loves his children and "never lets them down" and is always there for them yada yada yada - but because I said he never did, you instantly pull out your book of one million and one excuses for a non-existant deity and think it will work. Give it up.

All you've ended up doing is arguing my point that "all you have to do is ask", is wrong. We're all in agreement here, including god - who stated in the bible:

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

As an undeniable result of that, it stands that one can only find god if god wants them to, one can only believe in jesus if gods wants them to - and man is doomed to hell if god wants them to be.

 

[jayleew]

So you're saying we don't need god? If not I fail to see the worth of your statement in the context of discussion. It was stated that: "To find god all you need to do is ask", to which I responded that it has been tried and tested, and failed. That instantly negates the posters statement.

Obviously, we don't need God to live this life. The question is how we want to live this life and how we want to spend eternity, if there is one.

God does not fail, we fail him, and sometimes we fail him by not waiting, pretending like we are immortal.

I was then told that I have not waited long enough to which I have asked how long is the waiting list.

As you can see, there is no implication from anyone that people cannot 'take care of things' by themselves.

I am asking a) How long one must wait after asking, and b) Why an "all-loving" being would wait so long.

I don't know, I'm not God. But I have had long times of waiting before. Sometimes years, but not always. Besides, patience builds character.

So why do you religious folk bust my balls for being an atheist when I am so simply because I'm still stuck on god's waiting list? Nobody can rush that list except god - and if he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to. As such we can only conclude that I am an atheist because god wants me to be.

True, you are who you are on purpose. I would not be who I am today had I not gone through my agnostic years. That burns my butt too, we should not be busting your balls for being an atheist. It just gives the image of a blathering idiot and does no good whatsoever. Jesus never busted anyone's butt for not believing in him. He busted the balls of people who did so, when they themselves were not perfect.

In over 29 years my mother has never let me down, the local hospital has never let me down, the cigarette shop has never let me down, my car has never let me down, this computer has never let me down - but for the past decade or so god has decided to ignore me - ergo; let me down.

Yes, you can say that's his right as god, but basically I just negated any worth your statement might have had.

Is it God who has let you down, though? If you are asking God, you need help with something, right? So, who or what has let you down? I love it when I am let down by the world because it reminds me that I don't belong here.

I seriously don't think God has let you down, but perhaps you have let him down by shutting and locking the door on his existence...but what choice do you have. The evidence demands you to conclude the non-existence of God.

The nature of God is to empower us and include us in the solutions of life, not do the work for us. I can understand your questioning that if he loves you, why make you wait when he knows it will destroy your faith. That is a good question. Sometimes, there are no answers. Which leaves an illogical choice to believe in something that has not proved itself true, but that is why they call it faith.

And when you go ahead and make the illogical choice to continue to believe, God honors your faith that you didn't shut the door. Then he answers. He does that to me sometimes, and I always understand why after I have gone through the test.

Remember, some of the most righteous men and women today and yesterday sought to erase Christianity's illogical faith. Those people became Christians. Men like the Apostle Paul who made it his mission to debate the church, little did he know the tables would be turned, and he would be the one being ridiculed for his faith.

 

[SnakeLord]

Obviously, we don't need God to live this life. The question is how we want to live this life and how we want to spend eternity, if there is one.

This isn't of any relevance to what I asked or what I was saying.

God does not fail, we fail him, and sometimes we fail him by not waiting, pretending like we are immortal.

How do you get to "pretending we are immortal"? Wouldn't it be "acting like we are mortal" instead? When it comes down to the crunch I cannot wait forever - after all, I might get splatted by a bus tomorrow. How would a persons need to find god, to have a relationship with god, to even be impatient to get to know the most loving being in the universe be "failing god"? Well? Can you explain that please - how you consider trying real hard, and not wanting to wait for a decade as failing him?

But I have had long times of waiting before. Sometimes years, but not always.

Times? Surely it only happens once and then you know he exists? It would seem that you have confused the issue, (most likely my fault), and think that I was asking for a handout. That is not my nature. I merely asked to know god - for him to say "hi", and he didn't manage. You would claim that I didn't wait long enough for him to say hi, and somehow that equates as being me failing him.. I personally consider that borderline lunacy. If one cannot say hello to the most all-loving being in the universe without having to wait over a decade to get a "hi" back, there is a serious problem.

Besides, patience builds character.

The issue is not patience, and you know it.

True, you are who you are on purpose.

There you go.

Is it God who has let you down, though?

So an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all loving being can't take 10 seconds to say hello and it instantly becomes my fault? I've somehow let him down, (as you implied earlier)? You religious types are amusing, I'll give you that.

If you are asking God, you need help with something, right?

I am not quite so shallow. I shall leave that in the hands of the devout religious folk. All I wanted was a "hello".

So, who or what has let you down?

Once again I would ask that you not try and point fingers at me. A simple hello from an all loving, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent is not asking for much is it?

I seriously don't think God has let you down, but perhaps you have let him down by shutting and locking the door on his existence

Again blaming me. Look pal, he did that all by himself.

...but what choice do you have. The evidence demands you to conclude the non-existence of God.

I have no choice. This doesn't even have to come down to demands of evidence - but as even yourself stated: "True, you are who you are on purpose."

god wants me to be an atheist. (As it states clearly in 2 Corinthians).

The nature of God is to empower us and include us in the solutions of life, not do the work for us.

No offence, but I cannot say "hello" from him for him. Only he can do that. I did not ask for solutions or wads of cash. I asked for a hello. Even the strange checkout woman at the local Tesco's can manage that much.

Sometimes, there are no answers.

That's the problem with being religious. No answers, just wild guesswork and make believe.

Which leaves an illogical choice to believe in something that has not proved itself true, but that is why they call it faith.

One cannot have faith when god has made him an atheist "on purpose", (to use your own words).

And when you go ahead and make the illogical choice to continue to believe, God honors your faith that you didn't shut the door.

Now you're just being silly. We've already agreed that I have no choice in the matter. god made me the way I am "on purpose". Nothing I can do about it.

Remember, some of the most righteous men and women today and yesterday sought to erase Christianity's illogical faith. Those people became Christians.

Remember, some of the most christian men and women in the world became non-believers. While your example is understandable, the latter isn't - and shows the complete worthlessness of faith.

 

[Hapsburg]

If "Adam and Eve" only had two boys, "Cain" and "Abel", and if Cain killed Abel, who did Cain fuck to make more children? His mother Eve?

So? Oedipus did it. Who cares? We're all the same species anyway.

 

[Huwy]

Unless they had family planning I just cannot believe that adam and eve would not have had other children - you dunce!!!!

Cain would have had numerous sisters - at the time the genetic effects of incest would not affect their offsprings because they were just one generation away from being created by GOD.

Oh how convenient for you!! How come it doesn't mention that important detail in the almighty bible? Perhaps because it was written by human beings?

Isn't genetics - and the science of genetics and genetic defects, kind of a science thing, that contradicts the bible?
OH I SEE! "God" must have CLONED "Eve" from "Adams" RIB!!! WOW!

Don't call me a dunce, I'm studing a double bachelors degree in Science at University. I don't believe there are any academic requirements to become a priest.

By the way, it was 1992 when the Vatican apoligised to Galileo, and admitted that infact, the world was ROUND after all....

 

[Asguard]

Huwy catholics (at least the way it is offically taught here, including at the registed University where my mother got her Batular of education) dont belive that the earth is the center of the universe anymore or they belive that god comes through in science and that the 2 are not mutually exsulsive. That is what they have been teaching since vatican 2

adam and eve is a story told to people without the background science we have to explaine the reality to them, just like most of the other storys are metifores or have a similar purpose in explaining the unexplainable when they were written

 

[Cris]

AB,

It is only today that some mentally sick people are committing incest - a thing that was later on banned by GOD a coupole of generations after adam and eve.

You cannot be serious.

 

[Cottontop3000]

I think it's possible that he may be.

 

[Cris]

AB Jadon,

It is sadly interesting that you and people like you keep on pestering me.

I think you have that in reverse.

I wonder if this is just the Spiritual Law of Nature where sinners like you like to associate with Godly people like me.

So, you aren’t a sinner then? Nice example of arrogance.

Thanks atheists/sinners - I am beginning to understand you better now. You just can't help yourself, you are attracted to Godly people like me because deep inside each of you, you are hurting and you feel safe around Godly people.

LOL. More like a pack of hyenas who can smell weakness a mile off and are here for the kill.

Memo: atheists/sinners are scared and insecure.

If you are a descendent of A &E, as you seem to believe then you must also be a sinner – doesn’t that make you scared and insecure as well according to your assertion?

Except for the Unreedemable Sinners - The Creator Loves You.

Naturally – the Creator is fickle and unjust – as expected from Christian insanity.

 

[LightEagle]

how can you make such a statement? if there is a god, you would be claiming to know its mind. where is the basis for your claim that "god" loves anyone?

p.s. when I opened a thread for just atheist, all kinds of Christians posted, this is payback =]

What if God revealed His mind in the form of the Bible and in everyday life?

 

[john smith]

Any one know where mr 'Angelic Being' disapeared off too??

 

[Cyperium]

If I did, we would not be discussing this. The post that I responded to was the one that said: "To find god all you need to do is ask". I have not found god, although I have asked. As such the statement made By FreedomCry is false, and number 1 can safely be excluded.



I really did need the answer. My son had just died.



Why? Could he not have made himself known to me and told me my child was in heaven? Of course you could be right though - perhaps my son is in hell, because as god clearly states in the bible: he punishes children for the sins of their fathers. While telling me he'd done that wouldn't make me like him, it would clarify his existence.

However, regardless to any of that number 3 would again shows FreedomCry's statement as false - and that's all I was debating against.



So in other words: god wanted me to remain an atheist. Thus I am only an atheist because god wants me to be, and am doomed to hell because god wants me to be.



A) You are completely irrelevant to the discussion. You are not an "all-loving" god, and nobody made the statement that "all you have to do is ask", with regards to you. If you go back you'll see my original post was that FreedomCry's statement was wrong. It still is wrong.

However, what you're saying is that all these atheists that have at one time or another asked for god to make himself known have been refused, (because god was worried that getting to know him would be a bad thing for them), are forced into remaining as atheists - and ultimately doomed to hell because of it. I thought hell was as bad as it gets, so the excuse that god wont say 'hi' because he think's it's bad for them is seriously weak.



And he wont show himself to you at your asking either - which is what my first post was all about - to debunk FreedomCry's claim of "all you have to do is ask". It's no longer a case of just asking, indeed no - you have added all kinds of qualifying criteria to it: from waiting for a decade to somehow thinking that an eternity of hell is less "harmful" to me than god saying 'hi'.



So now asking god to come to you is testing him? This guy seemingly has a whole load of excuses for remaining non-existant. But then perhaps it's not him, but just you?

I'm sure if I had have come in this post stating how I asked for god and he came down and filled my heart with joy, you'd be telling me how awesome god is and that he loves his children and "never lets them down" and is always there for them yada yada yada - but because I said he never did, you instantly pull out your book of one million and one excuses for a non-existant deity and think it will work. Give it up.

All you've ended up doing is arguing my point that "all you have to do is ask", is wrong. We're all in agreement here, including god - who stated in the bible:

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

As an undeniable result of that, it stands that one can only find god if god wants them to, one can only believe in jesus if gods wants them to - and man is doomed to hell if god wants them to be.

I'm sorry for your loss, some people feels God reveals things to them when such a thing happen, that is not to say it happens to everyone.

Now, I don't know in what way God would reveal Himself to you, and I think that He might allready have done that. It depends on how much you really want to know and what you expect. God reveals Himself to man in many ways. God also know more about what you need than you do. I don't know you, I don't know how you handle the tragedy of your son.

I guess;
You can't do anything without God, so with Him you can find Him (that doesn't mean that you'll see Him though).


No one can see God and live.


It just sounds like excuses to you, and you think less of people that talk to you. To me it sounds you need to work on that, I wonder how you would handle Gods appearance...

Sorry. I just hope you allow yourself to feel relieved and let life continue.

 

[(Q)]

God reveals Himself to man in many ways.

That makes no sense. If he did such a thing, everyone would have a different perspective of him, contrary to what he would expect of us. Why would he want everyone to disagree?

Do these commandments mean nothing?

Protestant: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Catholic: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me."

Hebrew: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth..."

 

[Cyperium]

God reveals Himself to man in many ways.

That makes no sense. If he did such a thing, everyone would have a different perspective of him, contrary to what he would expect of us. Why would he want everyone to disagree?

Do these commandments mean nothing?

Protestant: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Catholic: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me."

Hebrew: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth..."

God knows. Thus what He does and what He see that we understand as a symbol for His appearence and His love.

 

[(Q)]

God knows. Thus what He does and what He see that we understand as a symbol for His appearence and His love.

He may, but you certainly don't. And that is entirely the point.

 

[jayleew]

So an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all loving being can't take 10 seconds to say hello and it instantly becomes my fault? I've somehow let him down, (as you implied earlier)? You religious types are amusing, I'll give you that.

I'm sorry for laying blame on you, I am just going on my experience that I find out in my own impatience that God was always there and I was foolish to doubt. I'm just trying to relate my own experiences with God, so that it could help you understand at least, not the existence of God, but that your situation was not any different between you and I. I just made a different choice and became agnostic. As I recall, there was an occasion in the scripture where Gideon tested God's existence. Not tempting, but testing.
I left the door cracked because of if God is real, there is a lot at stake.

I have no choice. This doesn't even have to come down to demands of evidence - but as even yourself stated: "True, you are who you are on purpose."

god wants me to be an atheist. (As it states clearly in 2 Corinthians).

Perhaps for now God does. Perhaps God sees you as a fire-builder, but fire consumes.

That's the problem with being religious. No answers, just wild guesswork and make believe.

Problem? I see it as a strength to admit one will never have all the answers. It is also a credit to the might of God. As I said before, if I had all the answers God could not exist. Science is too hasty and often changes its conclusions due to new evidence. Science stems from philosophy of old years, and philosphy said the world was flat, then round after new evidence was discovered. In short, I cannot put my faith in my perception of the evidence.

Remember, some of the most christian men and women in the world became non-believers. While your example is understandable, the latter isn't - and shows the complete worthlessness of faith.

We can speculate the meaning: Those who leave Christianity are like I was. First, I claimed to be a Christian, then I didn't as reason entered in. Faith like that is worthless and might as well had never been. It is unchangeable and rigid like a brick, black and white, with no allowance for God to be greater than what we read about in a book.

 

[jayleew]

God reveals Himself to man in many ways.

That makes no sense. If he did such a thing, everyone would have a different perspective of him, contrary to what he would expect of us.

Isn't that one of the problems of world religions?

Why would he want everyone to disagree?

It could be God's intention, or it might not be.

We are imperfect and only convinced of truth by our perception of what we experience through the senses.

There was one instance where we all did agree, or so the story goes of the Tower of Babel.

 

[(Q)]

Isn't that one of the problems of world religions?

More precisely, it is one of the many problems of all religions.

It could be God's intention, or it might not be.

If it was gods intention, what purpose would a god serve if he confuses everyone and then punishes the confused? If it wasn't, why then not rectify the situation?

We are imperfect and only convinced of truth by our perception of what we experience through the senses.

Then, by your own logic, all religions must be wrong.

We may be imperfect, but wouldn't god want everyone to have a crystal clear perception of him?

Again, what is his intention, to confuse or not?

 

[jayleew]

Then, by your own logic, all religions must be wrong.

I never thought of it like that, but it makes sense to me, but that does not validate that all religions worship the same God.

If all religions are wrong, then how can one teaching be the right teaching? In my agnostic years, I came to the conclusion that if one teaching is right, it would be Christianity. I support this view mostly on two facts: that the prevelant religions today were centered on one man's perceptions, and they were created at the point of a sword. I trust no one man's perception, and I am against oppression and brainwashing of tyranny. The Christian Crusades were wrong (after the first) and not as successful as the first, which was the only one that should have taken place because they were being oppressed by Isalmist states. Muhammed was a man who converted Christians nations by Jihad war. Today, I experience God, so I know that Christianity is wrong, but follows the right and one god. So, yes, all religions are wrong, but Christianity and Judaism follow the right god. The others know that there is a God, but are blinded by their perception. My own perception is wrong, but it is in the process of clearing every day I live.

We may be imperfect, but wouldn't god want everyone to have a crystal clear perception of him?

Again, what is his intention, to confuse or not?

I cannot presume to know God's intention, but I can speculate, because he is my friend, that he does want everyone to have a clear perception but we get in the way and muddle things up because we have free will. We want the Bible to say this, so that we can understand it. We want to worship like this, because we like it that way. God says this so you are wrong. Our desires distort our perception of God. We Christians need to back off and just let God be greater than our imagination.

 

[c7ityi_]

We Christians need to back off and just let God be greater than our imagination.

You Christians are better than others, aren't you?