Thread For Christians Only.

[MartianInExile]

Dear Angelic Being,
May I just ask of you not to post anything so, how should I say, self-righteous and bigoted? Hey man, I'm a Christian like you, but please don't make Christians look bad. I'm trying to ask you kindly so you wont let this "holy war" continue. I really think you approached this thread in the entire wrong direction. I mean, unless you're God, please step off your "high horse" and be a little more generous and accepting of others. Closing out Mormons and Atheists is not the way. Remember, the Bible says not to judge. Please, my friend, don't let this get to your head. Besides, look at this website's url (http://www.sciforums.com), trying a 'Christian-only' does nothing but hurts and discourages people from looking around, or intices them to get hardened hearts. Now, I'm no Gandhi, but I can see this trouble and what it may mean for any potential seekers. I just thought you may want another perspective on this.
Oh, one more thing, it was the upper-class Jewish elite in the Roman Empire that killed the Jewish-born Jesus.

 

[Hapsburg]

This doesn't deserve a response, but I'll give you one anyway. I am not anti-Semitic--I myself have the blood of Israel coursing through my veins. It is a fact that some of the Jews in Jesus's day conspired against him and were responsible for his death. That doesn't mean that all Jews killed him, nor did I indicate that. If I say that the Germans killed many Jews during World War II, does that make me anti-German?

Oh. Sorry. It just seemed implied. Y'know, a lot of christians hated all jewish people just because a stupid book said that a few jewish people wanted jesus dead. Ever heard of the Inquisition and all that stuff, eh?
The fact is, the Romans had no historical accounts of a man named "jesus" ever existing. The Romans took a census and kept records of everything. If your "jesus" existed, he would've shown up in the Roman's records.
Jesus never existed. Simple as that.

 

[Huwy]

www.jesusneverexisted.com

 

[Marlin]

Oh. Sorry. It just seemed implied. Y'know, a lot of christians hated all jewish people just because a stupid book said that a few jewish people wanted jesus dead. Ever heard of the Inquisition and all that stuff, eh?

Apology accepted. Yes, I'm aware that many have persecuted the Jews in the name of revenge for Jesus's death. I should have said that some of the Jews in Jesus's day killed Him, not just the Jews. My bad.

The fact is, the Romans had no historical accounts of a man named "jesus" ever existing. The Romans took a census and kept records of everything. If your "jesus" existed, he would've shown up in the Roman's records.
Jesus never existed. Simple as that.

Hmm. I don't know much about Roman record-keeping, but I do know that Jesus lived, and furthermore, that He lives today. He stands at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and guides the prophets and apostles of said Church.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

I don't know much about Roman record-keeping, but I do know that Jesus lived,

How do you know that then?

and furthermore, that He lives today.

And, again, your proof is?

 

[Marlin]

I don't know much about Roman record-keeping, but I do know that Jesus lived,

How do you know that then?

and furthermore, that He lives today.

And, again, your proof is?

I have a personal relationship with Him, that's how. I studied and prayed about the Book of Mormon, and He answered and told me within my heart that it (and the Bible) are true. Please see Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon for insight into how to get a testimony of God and of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

I have a personal relationship with Him, that's how.

That’s just an unsupported claim, not proof. It could more credibly be just your imagination. Can you demonstrate how we can distinguish your fantastic claim from the more believable conclusion that your claim comes only from your imagination?

I studied and prayed about the Book of Mormon,

Independent and objective research has revealed many times that the book of Mormon is based on fraud and the creative imagination of a snake-oil salesman (confidence trickster). It has no credibility outside the cult of gullible people who cannot see this.

and He answered and told me within my heart that it (and the Bible) are true.

Your heart is a blood pump - your statement has no meaning. Usually such statements mean you have allowed your emotions to override your ability to reason. Emotional conclusions are inherently significantly unreliable as a form of proof.

Please see Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon for insight into how to get a testimony of God and of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

As I said the book has no credibility and is hence worthless as a form of evidence or proof of gods.

Your proof will need to be something far more credible and independent than the claims made by a somewhat bizarre Christian cult.

 

[Facial]

no you dont - if you did understand me you will be feeling sorry for yourself.

I think it's about time that I prostrate myself before Mecca and pray to my great Christian God that communism will do away with his Fanatics.

 

[Marlin]

Marlin,

I have a personal relationship with Him, that's how.

That’s just an unsupported claim, not proof. It could more credibly be just your imagination. Can you demonstrate how we can distinguish your fantastic claim from the more believable conclusion that your claim comes only from your imagination?

Take it as you please. For myself, I know that He is real; I've spoken with Him and received answers to prayers from Him. He has rebuked me for wickedness and encouraged my repentance. He leads me in my quest for forgiveness of sins and righteous living.

I studied and prayed about the Book of Mormon,

Independent and objective research has revealed many times that the book of Mormon is based on fraud and the creative imagination of a snake-oil salesman (confidence trickster). It has no credibility outside the cult of gullible people who cannot see this.

What "independent and objective research" are you talking about? Mormonism is true.

and He answered and told me within my heart that it (and the Bible) are true.

Your heart is a blood pump - your statement has no meaning. Usually such statements mean you have allowed your emotions to override your ability to reason. Emotional conclusions are inherently significantly unreliable as a form of proof.

In my heart, soul and mind, God has proven His existence and love towards me. I use the word "heart" as "center of my being," sort of. Words can't really express what God has made me to feel and know. The English language just doesn't do it justice.

Please see Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon for insight into how to get a testimony of God and of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

As I said the book has no credibility and is hence worthless as a form of evidence or proof of gods.

Your proof will need to be something far more credible and independent than the claims made by a somewhat bizarre Christian cult.

You'll never know if you don't try and put "Moroni's Promise" to the test (Moroni 10:3-5). For myself, I am completely convinced that God exists and loves us, His children, and that He has an active part in our affairs. I could no more deny His existence than I could my own parents'.

 

[(Q)]

I've spoken with Him and received answers to prayers from Him

Kindly ask him then for peace on earth, rid the world of disease and feed all the starving children, would you? You do have a personal relationship with him, so that should be no problem at all, right?

He has an active part in our affairs

Ask him why he creates wars, kills people with disease and starves children to death?

Words can't really express what God has made me to feel and know. The English language just doesn't do it justice.

Try, at least. We would all like to know exactly what it is that you and no one else experiences.

I could no more deny His existence than I could my own parents'.

So, you've seen god? What does he look like?

 

[water]

Q, Cris,


Do yourself some good and stop fighting ghosts.
I think you know by now that a person cannot show you God -- so why do you keep insisting that others should show you God?

 

[(Q)]

I think you know by now that a person cannot show you God

Despite the fact theists continue to claim to have seen and talked with god? Why can't they simply ask their god to reveal himself to us non-believers? Wouldn't that put an end to our doubts?

And why is it that god tends to talk with theists, yet manages to not keep his comments consistent amongst his flock?

Do yourself some good and stop fighting ghosts.

Perhaps you should stop believing in ghosts.

 

[Hapsburg]

Hmm. I don't know much about Roman record-keeping, but I do know that Jesus lived, and furthermore, that He lives today. He stands at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and guides the prophets and apostles of said Church.

You have no solid proof to back up your ridiculous statements.
Furthermore, if the Roman authorities in Judaea, or Syria as it was known then, had no records of jesus existing, then your jesus did not exist. The Romans kept track of everything, they had the most intricate, sophisticated, and comprehensive bureaucratic and records-keeping system up until the Third Reich. If jesus wasn't on any of thier records, he simply wasn't there.

 

[Marlin]

You have no solid proof to back up your ridiculous statements.
Furthermore, if the Roman authorities in Judaea, or Syria as it was known then, had no records of jesus existing, then your jesus did not exist. The Romans kept track of everything, they had the most intricate, sophisticated, and comprehensive bureaucratic and records-keeping system up until the Third Reich. If jesus wasn't on any of thier records, he simply wasn't there.

Again, I don't know anything about Roman record-keeping, but this I do know: that Jesus lives and is the Christ, the living Son of God. My logic goes like this:

The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and is true, according to the testimony God has given me of it;
Therefore, the biblical account of His mortal ministry is also true, as it doesn't conflict with the Book of Mormon, and both books testify of Him.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

For myself, I know that He is real

Again, how do you know? Why is what you believe any different to what you imagine?

What "independent and objective research" are you talking about? Mormonism is true.

Pretty much anyone who isn’t a Mormon – just read the origins of M, it simply isn’t credible.

In my heart, soul and mind, God has proven His existence and love towards me.

Again, how is that any different to your emotions and imagination?

Words can't really express what God has made me to feel and know.

Which is consistent with strong emotional desires that have no logical foundation.

You'll never know if you don't try and put "Moroni's Promise" to the test (Moroni 10:3-5).

Good ol’ snake-oil salesman pitch. Can you show that what you believe is in any manner not your personal fantasy? I’ve tried the “try it and see” approach – it doesn’t work if you tend to use logical reasoning.

For myself, I am completely convinced that God exists and loves us,

I don’t doubt you are so convinced, but it would be nice if you could show that what you believe has any shred of truth.

I could no more deny His existence than I could my own parents'.

Similar to the conviction a small child has for the existence of Santa Clause – without some meaningful evidence your conviction is no different to fantasy.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

My logic goes like this:

The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and is true, according to the testimony God has given me of it;

For this premise to be valid you need to show that a god has given you such a testimony, and I do not see any such proof in the reasoning here. That pretty much destroys your logic on this.

Therefore, the biblical account of His mortal ministry is also true,

Invalid since the previous premise wasn’t valid.

as it doesn't conflict with the Book of Mormon, and both books testify of Him.

You’ll need to show that such books are true before you can use them in such a way.

 

[Cris]

Water,

Do yourself some good and stop fighting ghosts.

Ghosts? What are those?

I think you know by now that a person cannot show you God -- so why do you keep insisting that others should show you God?

Duh! Because they keep insisting that such things exist.

 

[water]

(Q),

I think you know by now that a person cannot show you God

Despite the fact theists continue to claim to have seen and talked with god?

Why are you so self-victimizingly gullible?
You believe that anything any theist says about God is true about God. It's a shame, what strawmen you argue with.

So what if those theists claim they have seen God and talked to Him? What is that to you?

Why can't they simply ask their god to reveal himself to us non-believers? Wouldn't that put an end to our doubts?

Maybe God is revealing Himself to you, right now as we speak. But you can only see so much right now.

And why is it that god tends to talk with theists, yet manages to not keep his comments consistent amongst his flock?

Does He? I think this is just your fear, preconceptions, ignorance and pain speaking.


Do yourself some good and stop fighting ghosts.

 

[water]

Ghosts? What are those?

The strawmen you fight against.

Duh! Because they keep insisting that such things exist.

So what? Do you really love it so much to bang your head against the wall?

 

[Hapsburg]

Again, I don't know anything about Roman record-keeping,

I do. I just told you.

but this I do know: that Jesus lives and is the Christ, the living Son of God.

That's not knowledge, that's ignorance.

My logic goes like this:

A christian with logic? Isn't that an oxymoron?

The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and is true, according to the testimony God has given me of it;

That is not proof. That's a book. It's about as true as the race theories of "Mein Kampf".

Therefore, the biblical account of His mortal ministry is also true, as it doesn't conflict with the Book of Mormon, and both books testify of Him.

Again, those are just books. Where is your proof?