Thread For Christians Only.

[Marlin]

It's amazing--Angelic Being has come full circle, from accusing me of committing the unpardonable sin, to being accused of it himself by Adstar!

Lesson to be learned from all of this ugliness: Judge not, that ye be not judged. Man has no divine sanction to declare his fellow man "unforgivable." That is God's judgment, not ours, to condemn or exalt.

 

[Cyperium]

That's a rather strange way of looking at murder. Man can kill man, too. A person that kills another person certainly knows the earthly implications - that they brought someone's life to an end, that that person's family or loved ones will be bereaved. You are excusing God because He "made the rules" while acting in an obviously unacceptable way. There are many die-hard theists who would resist this argument to the depths of their very being. But in any case, atheists are not really "putting God on trial" when they ask such questions. The question that they are really asking is, "How can you worship a God who kills?"

The death of the body isn't the worst thing that can happen. Everything that we experiance is humanly conceivable and natural. Natural in the way that we are built to face such things. Even you must agree with that? A lighter has to tolerate heat. As such a living being has to tolerate the environment in which it lives.

We must not kill, not only because it is by human morals intolerable, but because we don't know when is the time for another one to die. God lets us have a chance to follow the right way.

Whether God kills or not is not my concern. What is my concern is why American Christians are happy to be subjects to a religious system which fundamentally goes against everything they were brought up to believe. The United States is a Republic. Christianity teaches them to be subject to a King. The United States uses a system of due process and trial by ones peers. Christianity teaches that all are under the summary Judgement of an entity. The United States decrees laws and punishments by consent of the People. Christianity teaches that the Law is what God has decreed it to be - like the most despotic and tyrranical ruler - and the penalty for transgression is not life imprisonment but eternal torture, or (to put it in mathematical terms) all the punishments and tortures imposed on every human being - on every sentient creature, in fact - in all history, imposed upon one soul...... times infinity.

You say American society is better than God? God told us to follow the rules and laws of the society since they were inspired by Him.

 

[the preacher]

We must not kill, not only because it is by human morals intolerable, but because we don't know when is the time for another one to die. God lets us have a chance to follow the right way.

wtf, it's the belief in a god and the belief in an afterlife, that causes the most deaths in the first place, it should be intolerable period.
by killing you deprive a person of the one chance they have of a life.

You say American society is better than God? God told us to follow the rules and laws of the society since they were inspired by Him.

any society is better than a god, gods are fictitious, god told us nothing.
we had morallity long before we started imagining gods.

 

[cole grey]

It's amazing--Angelic Being has come full circle, from accusing me of committing the unpardonable sin, to being accused of it himself by Adstar!

Lesson to be learned from all of this ugliness: Judge not, that ye be not judged. Man has no divine sanction to declare his fellow man "unforgivable." That is God's judgment, not ours, to condemn or exalt.

"He knew he was in the grip of the unforgivable sin, despair."
-Graham Greene "The Power and the Glory"

 

[Cyperium]

wtf, it's the belief in a god and the belief in an afterlife, that causes the most deaths in the first place, it should be intolerable period.

Belief in God doesn't cause death. Can't speak of the other religions though.

by killing you deprive a person of the one chance they have of a life.

You think I disagree?

any society is better than a god, gods are fictitious, god told us nothing.
we had morallity long before we started imagining gods.

Society is blind. You can't give something without letting yourself be known? The gift itself shows your nature.

 

[Satyr]

Naming a thread “Thread for Christians only” is like excluding a jock from participating in a D&D session: The players instinctively know how pathetic and sad they are and what ridicule and pains they will suffer if they include the symbol of the opposite spectrum.

They prefer to enjoy the fantasy where reality is determined by a simple saving-throw.

 

[Hapsburg]

The created is allways lower than the creator.

Unless the created rebel.
Revolution!

 

[Adstar]

The created is always lower than the created revolution or no revolution.

And how apt that you should give us a picture of a statue of Lenin. A man who's vain thoughts lead to the deaths of millions and untold suffering of millions more. For What? he is dead and his revolution is dead. The russian people now live under a corrupt gangster capitalism. The chinese are salves to their communist party elite’s, who sell them as cheap labour for a profit hungry globalized industry.

Rebelling against God is the ultimate vanity. As if mere men could overcome God. They have got no chance. Their quest is as hopeless as worldly looser pictured above and the millions that followed his delusion to their deaths.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Hapsburg]

You obviously underestimate the human will to live, will to be free, autonomous. The will to be human.
And, since god doesn't exist anyway, your point is moot.

 

[mustafhakofi]

The created is always lower than the created revolution or no revolution.

And how apt that you should give us a picture of a statue of Lenin. A man who's vain thoughts lead to the deaths of millions and untold suffering of millions more. For What? he is dead and his revolution is dead. The russian people now live under a corrupt gangster capitalism. The chinese are salves to their communist party elite’s, who sell them as cheap labour for a profit hungry globalized industry.

Rebelling against God is the ultimate vanity. As if mere men could overcome God. They have got no chance. Their quest is as hopeless as worldly looser pictured above and the millions that followed his delusion to their deaths.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I happen to agree with you, that the created are always lower then the creators, my mum and dad are the ones I look up, to and always goto when I need information. there the only people in the world that have to right to tell me what to do.( but not so much now days)

your wrong in regard to lenin, it was stalin, and he was a catholic.
just as saddam who idoled himself after him is a muslim.
the chinese people are better treated than those who lived under Torquemada.

rebeling against an imaginary god, is the ultimate sanity, because mere men are vastly superior to an imagining, for they are real.

 

[KennyJC]

The created is always lower than the created revolution or no revolution.

And how apt that you should give us a picture of a statue of Lenin. A man who's vain thoughts lead to the deaths of millions and untold suffering of millions more. For What? he is dead and his revolution is dead. The russian people now live under a corrupt gangster capitalism. The chinese are salves to their communist party elite’s, who sell them as cheap labour for a profit hungry globalized industry.

Rebelling against God is the ultimate vanity. As if mere men could overcome God. They have got no chance. Their quest is as hopeless as worldly looser pictured above and the millions that followed his delusion to their deaths.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

See, this is where you are wrong and where the misconception lies with many theists. They say an "athiest" nation results in deaths of millions (ignoring for the moment religious nations have a similar past and presant).

In fact in all developed secular states (in this day and age), society is much better off than that of a nation ruled by God. If you had read the topic I made on the forum last week you can read an article on this. A godless society is a more health society, as places like Europe, Japan and Austrailia show.

 

[c20H25N3o]

There is plenty here attacking religion because of what people misuse it for and the relative impacts that that brings for the everyday peace loving person whether they be believer or not. Fair enough ... but do you also attack science for nuclear advancement because of the potential abuse that comes with it? Is scientific advancement also a great evil?

Should we give up scientific discovery because people may abuse the knowledge for their own selfish ambitions? Should we revile the young scientists for getting involved in a project that could ignite the war to end all wars?

Of course not! To do so would be 'irrational' .

peace

c20

 

[Adstar]

You obviously underestimate the human will to live, will to be free, autonomous. The will to be human.
And, since god doesn't exist anyway, your point is moot.

Oh i understand mans will to be their own gods. They have tried and tried and tried again to achieve a perfect society some kind of worldly paradise. The ranks of the nazi ss and the communist youth where full of starry eyed idealists who thought they could create heaven on earth through the efforts of man. But like the starry eyed boys of pol pot or the islamic radicals of today they only bring disaster to the people of this world. There is nothing more dangerous that a mob of starry eyed idealists who think they are have found the way to worldly nirvana.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

See, this is where you are wrong and where the misconception lies with many theists. They say an "athiest" nation results in deaths of millions (ignoring for the moment religious nations have a similar past and presant).

In fact in all developed secular states (in this day and age), society is much better off than that of a nation ruled by God. If you had read the topic I made on the forum last week you can read an article on this. A godless society is a more health society, as places like Europe, Japan and Austrailia show.

Correction.

There has only ever been 1 nation governed by God and that is ancient pre-monarchy Israel.

No other nation has been governed by God.

The next nation that will be God governed will be the Messianic kingdom of Jesus.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

your wrong in regard to lenin, it was stalin, and he was a catholic.

So what? Who cares why lenin’s vanity failed. It failed. Therefore it could not overcome mans inability to achieve a perfect state... Just like all the rest of the vain attempts by men to achieve the perfect system on earth. They will all fail just like lenin’s. I am proven right.

just as saddam who idoled himself after him is a muslim.

So what? saddam could not achieve his goal of a reformed Babylonian empire. And he was one totally committed and ruthless psycopath who sent millions to their deaths to achieve it. Another abject failure.

the chinese people are better treated than those who lived under Torquemada.

What does it matter? both are failures. Keep on giving me more examples, You only prove me correct.

rebeling against an imaginary god, is the ultimate sanity, because mere men are vastly superior to an imagining, for they are real.

You poor thing. If your going to believe in faulty humanity that has proven itself time and time and time again to be expert at stuffing up and falling down then your whole life is going to be one big disappointment after another. Why don't you learn from history? Oh i forgot no one ever learns from history.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[KennyJC]

There is plenty here attacking religion because of what people misuse it for and the relative impacts that that brings for the everyday peace loving person whether they be believer or not. Fair enough ... but do you also attack science for nuclear advancement because of the potential abuse that comes with it? Is scientific advancement also a great evil?

Should we give up scientific discovery because people may abuse the knowledge for their own selfish ambitions? Should we revile the young scientists for getting involved in a project that could ignite the war to end all wars?

Of course not! To do so would be 'irrational' .

peace

c20

Bit of a contradiction there. Sure science has created things which can be used for destruction, but by whom? Perhaps by G.W. "God told me to do it" Bush.

So the moral therein lies, that with the responsability of knowledge and technology - a secular world is required so that we have the maturity to handle these things.

Besides, all science has it's uses. You might be very glad one day that nuclear weapons are there when an asteroid is heading to Earth...

 

[KennyJC]

Correction.

There has only ever been 1 nation governed by God and that is ancient pre-monarchy Israel.

No other nation has been governed by God.

The next nation that will be God governed will be the Messianic kingdom of Jesus.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Perhaps I should have worded it differently... A nation that has strongly held religious beleifs... such as America... As opposted so a nation that is more secularized, such as Europe.

Nice way of avoiding my point though.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Sure science has created things which can be used for destruction, but by whom? Perhaps by G.W. "God told me to do it" Bush.

So it seems to me that the problem is neither with science or religion but rather it is with individuals who are happy to corrupt either to suit their own selfish ambition. I still do not see how either can be negated because of the potential for abuse.

In the example where I may be glad that the nuke hits an asteroid, by the same token you may be glad of the newly converted Christian who takes you in and helps you recover after you have been mugged and left for dead.

peace

c20

 

[SnakeLord]

I happen to agree with you, that the created are always lower then the creators, my mum and dad are the ones I look up, to and always goto when I need information.

Personally I disagree. I think it depends vastly on the creator.. Take for instance if your father was an uneducated, alcoholic wife beater. You then, if you try, can easily become greater than your creator.

The same would be true of the jewish god, for if it exists the way the bible portrays it to, then most humans are far more moral, more forgiving and kind, more loving and caring than it could ever hope to be.

 

[(Q)]

Fair enough ... but do you also attack science for nuclear advancement because of the potential abuse that comes with it? Is scientific advancement also a great evil?

It is for the Christians who ultimately have already abused it. It was Christians who dropped the bomb.