ROFLMAO, you are hilarious dude. You explained absolutely nothing, you're more content on attacking me. Which is a good sign. It shows you have nothing else, but that.
Let's see now:
the blind dude interpreted it as:
- This passage is advocting violence for the interest of God. However, at the same time, it says it should be in limitation? What are those limitations?
this is biased interpretation, it says to fight "those who fight you".. so tell me is there anything wrong with defending yourself? as for what the limits are.. we will see in the context.
It is ironic how you call me blind, when you actually have shown yourself to be blind here. I made no such conclusion, that it is wrong to to defend yourself, nor does this passage indicate anything about defending yourself, nor did I say this particular passage was wrong.
However, had you looked further, you would see this:
I have acknowledged the first quotes as the measure against "wrong doers". I can see it is perhaps righteous to fight against wrong, but what exactly is wrong as per Islamic standards? If you examine this passage:
So, pretty much, I acknowledged what you just said here, that if it means fight against wrong doers, than it would be perhaps the righteous thing to do. You owe me an apology, don't you think.
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
- This statement which follows abvocates murder against wrong doers. So what happend to the limitation as prescribed above.
so this dude first asks what the limits are, then he talks like he knows what they are and they are being broken.. do you see the ignorance here??
see in the verse it says "and turn them out from where they have Turned you out", ie if they take over your home, you take them out. the key words here is "tumult and oppression".. so once again is self defense wrong? and do you see where it says "those who suppress faith", there is a context.. this verse was revealed to a people suffering from oppression, where they were not allowed to practice their faith.
And again, my friend, I have said, "this advocates murder against wrong doers" notice the keyword, "Wrong doers" and, just above it, it suggests it should be done in limits - so there is a limit beyond murder, I see
for some reason the dude didn't show the verse right after it..
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [2:192]
Oh, that makes such a vast difference, doesn't it?
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. [2:193]
- This suggests a continued campaign against oppressors, sounds like the Jihad's of today. However, the 2nd line, does not entirely suggest oppression, as it associates oppression with "Faith in Allah" In other words, let the "Faith in Allah" prevail over the oppressors. Untill they cease their hostility. Does oppressors mean non-muslims in this context, and their hostility, their alternate beliefs?
this was addressed to the same people, but this interpretator dude likes to show it as if its a bad thing to fight against oppressors and to defend yourself, he wants to make it look like different beliefs = oppression, but it says clearly in the last few words "but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.". this oppression is the violence the muslims being addressed were facing, the theft of their homes, the oppression of not being allowed to practice islam.
It's not a bad thing to fight against oppressors, it is what is meant by oppressors in this context, and why it links the prevailing of "faith in Allah" to oppressors. Of course, I did not draw a conclusion from this - I merely asked a question "Does oppressors mean non-muslims in this context, and their hostility, their alternate beliefs?" You are the one drawing the conclusions.
2:216 was addressed to same group of people, but to those in particular who were a little hesitant, who feared men more than they should really be fearing God, because God was on their side and God would not let them down. the interpretor said.
2:216 was addressed to same group of people, but to those in particular who were a little hesitant, who feared men more than they should really be fearing God, because God was on their side and God would not let them down. the interpretor said
- This suggests, we are suppose to fight, and it's God's will. There is also more deeper implications felt by this passage. That our emotional being that is marred by inflicting pain on others, is our ignorance, and we should not let that come in our way.
he tried to make it out like, the people were hesitant in fighting because our emotional being (humanity) was getting in the way, but this is not true.. this was addressed to those who were scared of fighting their oppressors.. in the context, the verse before it says..
Umm, no:
“Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216
Nor do the passages you quoted before it, and after it, made any difference, to what this passage says. This clearly suggests, that these are trials to get to the garden of eden, that one must do.
then the islam expert posted verse 9:5 and said:
- This further reinforces the above passage, and here it suggests a pro-active role of Islamic conversions, by seeking non muslims, and converting them. Thus, the Islamic crusades, and how it spread, by forcing non-muslims to convert, or perish, is preached in this passage.
he doesn't show you the context, and who it was addressed to..
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. [9:4]
I am humbled, that you think I am an Islam expert
I'm not however, I'm just reading what I can get hold of regarding Islam, and the passages themselves have spoke volumes to me.
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. [9:4]
[/QUOTE]
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5
Interesting that, so make alliances with them, and when the forbidden months are past, go on a rampage. The passage 9:5 does not make a distinction between the pagans who have aliied, and those who have not.
How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. [9:8]
But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. [9:12]
so you get an idea what the pagans were like. and the next verse explains it clearly why there is this fighting..
Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! [9:13]
so you can now see that it was the pagans that started the aggression, so it comes down to the question.. is self defense okay?
The classic kindergarten argument, "He hit me first" from the passages you quote, I can see a lot of prejudice against pagans, calling them wicked, untrustworthy, and questioning if they should be made peace with. Does not sound very encourgaing, does it.
Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). [4:74]
and the sheik had to say about this:
- This is a disturbing passage. If one fights for Islam, he is right, and he will be rewarded, in life, or after life. It sounds like brainwashing.
ooh how much brainwashing.. why did he not post the verse straight after this??? here it is again in context..
Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). [4:74]
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" [4:75
That does not sound like brain washing actually - "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah, and of those, being weak, are ill-treated"
Something to this affect, "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Islam, and of those being ill-treated by the US"
All you've proven, that Islam regarded pagans as untrustworhy, wrong, oppressive, evil, blah blah, to justify it's wars against them, and do remember, not only did Islam fight against jews, and christians, but also Hindu's and Sikhs, and Buddhists.
Interestingly, you did not discuss the Hadith. Sorry I am not convinced.
Also, the reason, I have not quoted the surroundings passages, is because I don't have the Quran at my finger tips
