THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know

[Sock puppet path]

Regarding Spain
Firstly Muslims INVADED Spain they took islam to Spain BY THE SWORD. Imagine a christian power ruling muslim lands. I think Spanish history actually shows the failure of islam as a system of governance and a faith(at least in regards to europe). The spanish had 800 years to embrace islam but they didn't if muslim rule and the behaviour of muslims in spain was all diamnod claims then it would make no sense for the people of spain not to become muslim.

some snippets

here

The Almohades conquered Córdoba in 1148, and offered the Jewish community the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile. Maimonides's family, along with most other Jews, chose exile. For the next ten years they moved about in southern Spain, avoiding the conquering Almohades, but eventually settled in Fes in Morocco, where Maimonides acquired most of his secular knowledge, studying at the University of Fes. During this time, he composed his acclaimed commentary on the Mishna.

Maimonides is frequently referred to as a paragon of Jewish achievement facilitated by the enlightened rule of Muslim Spain, his own words debunk this utopian view of the Islamic treatment of Jews:

"..the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.."

Maimonides obviously wasn't anti-muslim since he fled Spain for Egypt but this says something about conditions in muslim spain.


From Richard Fletchers "Moorish Spain"

The witness of those who lived through the horrors of the Berber conquest, of the Andalusian fitnah in the early eleventh century, of the Almoravid invasion -- to mention only a few disruptive episodes -- must give it [i.e., the roseate view of Muslim Spain] the lie. The simple and verifiable historical truth is that Moorish Spain was more often a land of turmoil than it was of tranquility...Tolerance? Ask the Jews of Granada who were massacred in 1066, or the Christians who were deported by the Almoravids to Morocco in 1126 (like the Moriscos five centuries later).In the second half of the twentieth century a new agent of obfuscation makes its appearance: the guilt of the liberal conscience, which sees the evils of colonialism -- assumed rather than demonstrated -- foreshadowed in the Christian conquest of al-Andalus and the persecution of the Moriscos (but not, oddly, in the Moorish conquest and colonization). Stir the mix well together and issue it free to credulous academics and media persons throughout the Western world. Then pour it generously over the truth. In the cultural conditions that prevail in the West today, the past has to be marketed, and to be successfully marketed it has to be attractively packaged. Medieval Spain in a state of nature lacks wide appeal. Self-indulgent fantasies of glamour...do wonders for sharpening up its image. But Moorish Spain was not a tolerant and enlightened society even in its most cultivated epoch."

 

[Huwy]

I laugh at the first post.

 

[Huwy]

I'd be fired up too if I was named after a child rapist.

 

[Huwy]

At a 2002 scientific conference Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf described the Islamic world as "the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most unenlightened, the most deprived and the weakest of all the human race".

 

[(Q)]

I did, and I also said I respect Jewish religion and ethnicity.

Then, you are a hypocrite.

I don't believe in the right of Zionists to colonize on Palestinian land. I am against Zionists and their supporters. Colonialism and Genocide is evil, and any state based on this is evil, and I don't only mean Israel.

What about the colonization of Muslims in the world, are you against that, is that also evil?

And you speak of genocide:

"In a BBC interview on March 19, the U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Sudan, Mukesh Kapila, said of the genocide in Darfur that it is "the world's greatest humanitarian crisis, and I don't know why the world isn't doing more about it. . . . The only difference between Rwanda and Darfur now is the numbers involved."

The Arab killers and rapists in Darfur are Muslims, and so are the victims—black African farmers. The Arabs are herdsmen, and have been competing for water, forage, and the land itself with the African farmers. Sudan's government is supporting the Arab Janjaweed militia's ferocious intent to make Darfur, in the west of Sudan, "Zurga-free." That term is the equivalent of "nigger" used by white racists. It also echoes the Nazis' mission to make Europe "judenfrei"—Jew-free."

http://villagevoice.com/news/0420,hentoff,53562,6.html

 

[(Q)]

20. The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.

24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. [Hellfire for those who reject faith]

25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever)...

39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

2:104. O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger. words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment. [Hellfire]

That makes no sense at all. If Allah is the creator of all things and has power over all things, then Allah MUST have created all the evil in the world and has power over that as well. If that were the case, no one should ever go to hell.

Why doesn't Allah have control over me? He is powerless.

115. To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

Again, it makes no sense whatsoever if Allah is "all-pervading and all-knowing" if there is evil in the world, he must have created that evil and he allows it to exist. Therefore, we can blame all evil in the world on your god, he created it and he sustains it.

Allah is therefore evil.

2:159. Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah.s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-

160. Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

161. Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah.s curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

162. They will abide therein: Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot).

163. And your Allah is One Allah. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Again, why would Allah curse "all mankind" when he created mankind? How can he be gracious and merciful when he created all the evil to which he curses?

Allah is going around in circles, first creating evil, cursing it and then tossing into hellfire. What is the purpose of that nonsense?

165. Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah.: They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty.

166. Then would those who are followed clear themselves of those who follow (them) : They would see the penalty, and all relations between them would be cut off.

Didn't Allah create those men?

168. O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.

You said it yourself, Allah is the creator of ALL things, therefore he created evil, therefore he is the evil one that should not be followed.

6. He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

In other words, Allah will create evil as he pleases and then tosses you into the hellfire, as he pleases. How is that wise?

7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Well, it appears the so-called "men of understanding" have completely missed the obvious, that Allah created all evil in the world.

10. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah. They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.

It is Allah that made them reject the faith, for he created them and molded them as he pleases. He created them to keep the fires of hell burning. Allah is entirely at fault.

21. As to those who deny the Signs of Allah and in defiance of right, slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty.

There you go Diamondhearts, you yourself placed that quote here. So, stop telling us we are making it up. It states quite clearly that those who do not follow Islam will be met with a grievous penalty; death.

27. "Thou causest the night to gain on the day, and thou causest the day to gain on the night; Thou bringest the Living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the Living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure."

Hogwash! Allah resurrects the dead? Who was resurrected exactly?

29. Say: "Whether ye hide what is in your hearts or reveal it, Allah knows it all: He knows what is in the heavens, and what is on earth. And Allah has power over all things.

ALL THINGS, Diamondhearts, which includes evil.

31. Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

So, now your saying Allah will forgive sins after saying he will toss you into the hellfire? Make up your mind, which one is it?

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Fear and obey, the tenets of most religions.

54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

That is silly, all it says is my god can beat up your god. Childish.

56. "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

57. "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."

Of course, those are the same people Allah created, for which he will not punish with terrible agony or pay them their full reward, as he pleases.

73. "And believe no one (in regards to faith) unless he follows your religion."

And again, Diamondhearts, you placed that quote here, so don't tell us we're making it up.

Those are brainwashed into racism and bigotry who would believe what you wrote.

What do you mean, clearly anyone who reads the about quotes certainly cannot take Islam seriously when there are so many contradictions, paradoxes and statements that simply make no sense at all.

How can anyone worship a god who creates all the evil in the world, controls the evil for his own pleasure and then punishes those doing evil, the very same evil HE created?

If Allah didn't create evil, then who did?

 

[Michael]

YES or NO: Was it OK when Tariq ibn Ziyad led the Muslims to kill the Catholic Visigoths and conquer Spain? Where those Muslims evil colonizers?

Ohh wait, they can not be evill, because they are Muslims and Muslims never do anything bad. They are perfect. They just came to Spain offering candy and love. The Spaniards were so happy to have them there that they offered up their daughters, gave up control of their land and were so happy to obey their new wonderful lovey-dovey Muslim rulers. And the Muslims were happy and stayed and everyone lived happily ever after worshipping Allah in the local mosque in one big happy Islamic family where no one went without and no one got sick and everyone was happy happy happy.

La la la … la da dee la la deed la la la la....

*puff puff*

happy happy happy

…..

 

[DiamondHearts]

Nice cut and paste job diamonshithead, this however proves fucking nothing, people still are killing in the name of your stupid religion, and other religions do the same, in the eyes of secularist, all you fuckers are fucking nuts! :bugeye:

Godless

I presented the full context and proper translation of the whole verses rather than phrases you presented.

Anyone who will have read the quotes, should have no question after this about Islamic beliefs regarding what you asked.

The fact that you are being overly rude, does not make your point any more valid.

About Spain:

María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University, has argued that "Tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society"

The family of Wittiza then fled to Ceuta on the northern shore of the Maghreb. In Ceuta, Visigothic rivals of Roderic gathered along with Arians and Jews fleeing forced conversions at the hands of the Catholic bishops who controlled the Visigothic monarchy. The surrounding area of the Maghreb had recently been conquered by Musa Ibn Nosseyr, who established his governor, Tariq ibn Ziyad, at Tangier with a Moorish army of 1,700 men.

In Spain there was internal fighting among the Visigoths. Among the factions were the sons of a recently deceased king who felt that they had unfairly been stripped of power. They appealed to Musa to intervene in their civil war, and Musa obliged. He sent his deputy, Tariq bin Ziyad, to Spain, whose armies landed at Gibraltar on April 30, 711, from whence they proceeded to take most of Spain. Their major victory came in September of the same year when the Muslim armies defeated Roderic at the Guadalete River.

wikipedia.org

At a 2002 scientific conference Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf described the Islamic world as "the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most unenlightened, the most deprived and the weakest of all the human race".

You bring this up, but do you know why? Constant and continuous interference in Islamic countries policies. Continued genocide against Muslims. Very little western and foreign invastment in Muslim countries. This is all a remnant from the heavy handed colonization of the Muslim world and also discontent and hatred of anything Western due to double standards against Muslims. Look at countries like Afghanistan and Iraq where sanctions and mistrust was the western way to deal with them, and now violence and heavy occupation are their day to day lives.

President Musharaff is not very much liked in his own country, let alone the Muslim world. He is viewed as a dog of the US and a traitor of Islamic causes.

I believe he does have a point in this quote however. Muslims need to stop relying on Western systems and stop sucking up to the West and take charge of their own countries. Demand more money for oil, increase trade among themselves and boycott those nations who oppress Muslims. We can do alot, but we need to get organized and stand together.

Then, you are a hypocrite.

Zionism does not equal Judaism.

Ju·da·ism Audio pronunciation of "judaism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jd-zm)
n.

1. The monotheistic religion of the Jews, tracing its origins to Abraham and having its spiritual and ethical principles embodied chiefly in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud.
2. Conformity to the traditional ceremonies and rites of the Jewish religion.
3. The cultural, religious, and social practices and beliefs of the Jews.
4. The Jews considered as a people or community.

Zi·on·ism Audio pronunciation of "zionism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (z-nzm)
n.

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

What about the colonization of Muslims in the world, are you against that, is that also evil?

And you speak of genocide:

"In a BBC interview on March 19, the U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Sudan, Mukesh Kapila, said of the genocide in Darfur that it is "the world's greatest humanitarian crisis, and I don't know why the world isn't doing more about it. . . . The only difference between Rwanda and Darfur now is the numbers involved."

The Arab killers and rapists in Darfur are Muslims, and so are the victims—black African farmers. The Arabs are herdsmen, and have been competing for water, forage, and the land itself with the African farmers. Sudan's government is supporting the Arab Janjaweed militia's ferocious intent to make Darfur, in the west of Sudan, "Zurga-free." That term is the equivalent of "nigger" used by white racists. It also echoes the Nazis' mission to make Europe "judenfrei"—Jew-free."

http://villagevoice.com/news/0420,hentoff,53562,6.html

When it was founded by Dan Wolf (Jewish), Ed Fancher and Norman Mailer in October of 1955, The Village Voice introduced free-form, high-spirited and passionate journalism into the public discourse. As the nation's first and largest alternative newsweekly, the Voice maintains the same tradition of no-holds-barred reporting and criticism it first embraced when it began publishing fifty years ago.

Nat Hentoff, is the author Jewish as well?

I see, that is why they compares this to Nazism and Holocaust.

Because the southern Sudanese started a civil war with the government of Sudan and some of the tribes in Darfur have engaged in skirmishes, this means there is Muslim colonization in Sudan?

What is the purpose of your story? To encite hatred against Arabs?

Read this instead:

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/headlines/the_janjaweed_militia_in_darfur

http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=431

What do you mean, clearly anyone who reads the about quotes certainly cannot take Islam seriously when there are so many contradictions, paradoxes and statements that simply make no sense at all.

You are inventing your own paradoxes.

How can anyone worship a god who creates all the evil in the world, controls the evil for his own pleasure and then punishes those doing evil, the very same evil HE created?

If Allah didn't create evil, then who did?

Allah swt created all that is in the word including men who are capable of evil and Iblis (Diablos) the Devil who whispers evil in the hearts of men.

Allah swt allows man to make his choices and has allowed man to do evil if man chooses to. Allah swt says He has made evil to test those who are good, and see who will choose good over evil when given the free choice by Allah swt to do either.

Allah swt allows evil, and those who make mischeif and evil in the land are allowed to by Allah swt. He allows evil to go on by His will. He tests humans and rewards those who do good and oppose evil. Allah swt has promised He will punish the wicked in this life and the next. The punishment is just, because they chose of their own will to do evil instead of good.

Peace.

 

[GeoffP]

I presented the full context and proper translation of the whole verses rather than phrases you presented.

And ignored their meaning, and lability to strike one meaning or another, and their usage in the present day, for which we have no evidence whatsoever that they will change.

Anyone who will have read the quotes, should have no question after this about Islamic beliefs regarding what you asked.

Indeed, I don't. And don't talk to others about rudeness, when you refuse to answer any of my questions, or accuse me of insulting islam.

Tolerance in Spain? Tell it to the Almohides. And read "Sword of the Prophet", or "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance".

The Nation, Vol. 274, May 27, 2002

"...but its [islam's] much-vaunted tolerance ended many years before, in the twelfth century, when power was seized by the Almohads, a fanatical Islamic sect from Morocco, which does bear comparison to the Taliban. They waged a campaign of terror on all Christians..."

You bring this up, but do you know why? Constant and continuous interference in Islamic countries policies. Continued genocide against Muslims. Very little western and foreign invastment in Muslim countries.

Oh? But Osama tells us that islam doesn't want us in islamic land. How ought the West to invest in islamic nations and then also not to do so? Where is this genocide against muslims? Are you referring to the war in Serbia which the West stopped? And yet you have no criticism of genocidal statements by the enemies of Israel, and you dismiss the evidence that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem himself was a Nazi sympathizer planning his own Holocaust for Jewish settlers - and why? Because he, after all, is muslim, and thus, to your eyes, perfect. Methinks your outrage is selective.

And as for interference in islamic countries: please. Everyone practices that, including islamic nations. When Western powers intervene to save the life of someone who is sentenced to death merely for converting to a non-islamic religion, interference is a good thing.

President Musharaff is not very much liked in his own country, let alone the Muslim world. He is viewed as a dog of the US and a traitor of Islamic causes.

Because he doesn't kill apostates?

Because the southern Sudanese started a civil war with the government of Sudan and some of the tribes in Darfur have engaged in skirmishes, this means there is Muslim colonization in Sudan?

Um...because hundreds of thousands of people (300,000; 180,000 in the last eighteen months) have been murdered by the government of Sudan, those being animist, Jewish, Christian or minority-sect muslim?

Allah swt allows evil, and those who make mischeif and evil in the land are allowed to by Allah swt. He allows evil to go on by His will. He tests humans and rewards those who do good and oppose evil. Allah swt has promised He will punish the wicked in this life and the next. The punishment is just, because they chose of their own will to do evil instead of good.

And he already knows what the answer will be, and he controls all the factors in the game. How can he want to "see" who will make the good and bad choices? Doesn't he already know? Isn't he omniprescient?

You seem to be attributing characters to this deity of yours more or less at will to try and make the points you need to make. First he knows everything, then he doesn't. First life is a test of free will, but Allah controls everything, so that nothing can really be free.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

I have stopped giving any meaning to your tirades a long time ago.

Almost everything that comes out of your mouth is meant to insult Islam, Arabs, Muslims, or the Holy figures of Islam.

Your concept of Islam is completely wrong, that is why you always find hidden meanings in other people's words.

You not only criticize the practitioners of Islam and invent false charges against them, but you criticize anyone who says anything nice about Muslims or Arabs.

This can be seen with your avid support of Israeli brutality against Palestinians in the politics threads.

Liars, decievers, and propagandists are not needed in this forum. Please leave.

 

[(Q)]

Liars, decievers, and propagandists are not needed in this forum. Please leave.

Why haven't you left? You have lied, decieved and delivered more propaganda than we can shake a stick. Why are you still here?

 

[Godless]

I have stopped giving any meaning to your tirades a long time ago.

Me too

Why haven't you left? You have lied, decieved and delivered more propaganda than we can shake a stick. Why are you still here?

He's like the vacum salesman that comes to your home, and never wants to leave untill you buy it!.

Godless

 

[Michael]

AND I STILL have a list of questions with YES or NO answers that were never answered with a YES or a NO.

This is a good example: "María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University, has argued that "Tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society".....

So what? Sure, after the Spainish is conquered and time passed, yeah people may become tolerant. Kind of like here in Australia and the conquest of the Aboriginals. Does that make the initial conquest OK?

Or my question about Jews that are born in Israel TODAY?

Its funny, Muslims have no problem (and indeed seek to) move to the USA or Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etcetera. Well, that land was conquered. SO why be a hypocrite and move there? Oh I know, because it doesn’t matter because its not the Middle East and there are no tribal Arab feuds disputing the land.

Bloody Hypocrite. Why don’t you move to Egypt and bitch to the Coptic Christians there. I’m sure they’d love to hear you spew it.

The Assyrians and Kurds and Persians and Armenians and Arabs have continued to feud and conquer one another lands since 1000s of years before Islam and continued to kill and conquer one another 1400 after Islam.
- Similar to Christians and the Pagans before them, Muslims performed genocide on entire groups of people, such as the Xian Armenians.
- Islam produced fat wealthy petulant Sultans similar to any other kings.
- Just like in Communism, Islam’s irrational belief in the Islamic System has only led to a bunch of poor people being ruled and bullied by a few rich at the top.
- As a matter of fact, in an Islamic society the person with the worse case of paranoid delusion (hearing voices from God, seeing visions, talking with God) gets promoted to the top spot? IN the West we usually institutionalize and medicate such a person. And one wonders why the ME is and has been in such a shit shape?!?!??!
- Hell, DiamondHearts even thinks it OK to have Slaves and wants to be a Hindu’s Slave someday.

One would think that after 1400 years of Slavery and Servitude that one would figure it out. But I suppose that’s the power to telling someone they get something AFTER…yeah that’s right AFTER they die!

Still falling for the oldest trick in the book .... How sad.

Face it, the only time the ME did well was when they controlled the trade between the Chinese and Indians and European and you know, that wasn’t all the great for most Muslims people. Most of Islam’s existence in the ME is marked by absolutely NO CHANGE in the behavior of the Muslim people. They are just as tribal now as pre-Islam. This is the same pattern we see in all societies run by religion. The ME now is just like in Europe in the Dark Ages.

I'm seriously beginning to doubt that most ME have the mental facilities to move past Religion. I say we put our money and efforts into new fuel (oil is killing the planet anyway – oh wait, maybe global warming is just Gods will :bugeye: ) and move on to trading with the East. When the ME turns into even more of an Islamic dust bowl than it already is, I suppose DiamondHearts will keep pleasure in knowing that everything happens because of Gods will.... You know, the next time you hear of a young Muslim girl or boy being raped and killed you can be safe in the knowledge that THAT act was Gods will. You know … a TEST.

Again, how sad. But what can you expect from people who believe in round squares.

Cheer,
Michael

 

[DiamondHearts]

- Similar to Christians and the Pagans before them, Muslims performed genocide on entire groups of people, such as the Xian Armenians.

You have a date for Armenian genocide? It was in the early 1900s when the Khilfat was destroyed. The European educated Young Turks organization, with Western blessing, was responsible for this. These same people destroyed the Ottoman Empire.

- Islam produced fat wealthy petulant Sultans similar to any other kings.

A stereotype. You talk about the peoples of Middle East, but I would tell you in the Middle East there are very few people who are as fat as people in America. People in Middle East know the meanings of hard work and healthy eating. Because some of your Western cartoonists draw our kings this way, doesn't make it a true sterotype. The West has always had false and racist stereotypes against Muslims.

- Just like in Communism, Islam’s irrational belief in the Islamic System has only led to a bunch of poor people being ruled and bullied by a few rich at the top.

If you are talking before European Imperialism that devasted our people, I would very much disagree with you. Our people enjoyed a prosperous and beautiful history before the advent of European armies into the Middle East before World War 1 who subjugated, murdered, and enslaved our people.

The modern governments in Islamic countries are aristocrats who have come to power and oppress their own people with the blessings of the West. These are the descendants of the dogs who supported European genocide in our native lands, they are not of us and they violently suppress all oppostion and especially Islamic resistance.

This proves that when other systems are in place of rule in the Islamic world, especially the governments loved and supported by our enemies, that we will not get anywhere. For progress and development in the Muslim world, we must first break our shackles of European dominance.

- As a matter of fact, in an Islamic society the person with the worse case of paranoid delusion (hearing voices from God, seeing visions, talking with God) gets promoted to the top spot? IN the West we usually institutionalize and medicate such a person. And one wonders why the ME is and has been in such a shit shape?!?!??!

Our crime is that we recognize a prophet of Allah swt and you don't?

The West is in love with a lying fraud by the name of Bush who murders and kills innocents all throughout the world. Those who support such a tyrant and are accomplices to the extermination of our people have no need for our sympathy.

- Hell, DiamondHearts even thinks it OK to have Slaves and wants to be a Hindu’s Slave someday.

I said Islam allows the taking of captives (prisoners of War) by the Muslim army. This type of captive is considered a slave in Islamic law. However, what I mean when I say slave is not the European concept of slavery or captive. Prisoners of war in the Islamic state can be released if they vow not to fight against the army again, or ask forgiveness and choose to become citizens of the Islamic State, or give a valid reason and proof that they were forced to fight and did not fight of their own accord, or teach ten people to read or right, or give money to the government for release. These slaves can choose to serve Muslims as household servants for an alloted period of time to gain complete freedom as well.

This is complete justice in Islamic law.

OK Michael, I have studied very hard in college to aspire to become a Hindu slave, it is my lifelong endeavor. ...

Peace.

 

[Xerxes]

teach ten people to read or right

Best line ever!

 

[(Q)]

I said Islam allows the taking of captives (prisoners of War) by the Muslim army. This type of captive is considered a slave in Islamic law. However, what I mean when I say slave is not the European concept of slavery or captive. Prisoners of war in the Islamic state can be released if they vow not to fight against the army again, or ask forgiveness and choose to become citizens of the Islamic State, or give a valid reason and proof that they were forced to fight and did not fight of their own accord, or teach ten people to read or right, or give money to the government for release. These slaves can choose to serve Muslims as household servants for an alloted period of time to gain complete freedom as well.

This is complete justice in Islamic law.

But of course, that is not justice of any kind. It is slavery, and slavery has only one meaning, the state of being under the control of others.

Lets look at Muslim slavery:

Ninth Century, slave armies were used extensively throughout the Islamic empire. The Muslim ruler of Egypt had 24,000 Mamaluks and 45,000 Nubians. Seventeenth Century, the Muslim Sultan of Morrocco had a whopping 250,000 slaves. As late as 150 years ago, Muslim rulers were sending slaves over to Mexico to support the French, regardless of the fact that Europeans abolished slavery by 1800.

It was during 1870's that British armies were forced to go to Africa in order to abolish the Islamic slave trade. Of course, Muslim rulers balked at that and continued the slave trade until the end of World War I. It was only finally abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1960 and finally made illegal in the Arabian Peninsula in 1962.

And NO, conversion to Islam did NOT automatically provide a slave freedom, or their children for that matter. In fact, anyone who was outside the Islamic borders was free game to make as slaves, no military training required.

And of course, slaves were not acquired due to some army who wanted to conquer the Muslims, NO, they were acquired in conquest, during the spread of the Muslim Empire.

And although Islamic law prohibited mutilation, Muslims would bid higher for Eunuchs, hence men were castrated before crossing Islamic borders. And by law, Muslim slave owners were allowed to use slaves for sexual pleasure, whether male or female.

But, I'm sure Diamondhearts will call all of it lies, regardless of the fact that those slavery documentation is available for viewing by all.

 

[GeoffP]

I have stopped giving any meaning to your tirades a long time ago.

That explains why you keep feeling the need to respond, then.

Almost everything that comes out of your mouth is meant to insult Islam, Arabs, Muslims, or the Holy figures of Islam.

How? As I keep saying, I keep referring back to your own explanations for islam. If someone is insulting islam, it's you, not me.

Besides, if you knew me, you would know that that simply isn't true. I insult many, many things besides islam.

Your concept of Islam is completely wrong, that is why you always find hidden meanings in other people's words.

Am I wrong in conceiving that you would execute those who leave islam? Or homosexuals? You even threatened someone here who said he was an apostate!

You not only criticize the practitioners of Islam and invent false charges against them, but you criticize anyone who says anything nice about Muslims or Arabs.

Both those statements by you are lies. I criticize some practitioners, and sometimes I feel pity for them. I invent nothing, but rather quote from islam and muslims themselves. And where have I "criticized anyone who says anything nice about Muslims or Arabs". This, too, is a lie, I regret to say.

This can be seen with your avid support of Israeli brutality against Palestinians in the politics threads.

Another falsehood. I support brutality against no one, although I do believe in a nation's right to defend itself.

Liars, decievers, and propagandists are not needed in this forum. Please leave.

I regret to have to tell you that I have not needed at any point to resort to lying either about you or about islam at any point in this thread. It is you who have been progressively maligning my character, first terming any criticism of islam an "insult" (and how, then, is one able to criticize islam in your world? Sad) and now stooping to outright lies against me. Increasingly your position is growing desperate. My position stands: there is something at the least wrong with islamic practice, and at the worst wrong with islam itself - I hope for the former, but frankly expect the latter.

Your contributions on this thread, far from helping you, have been supporting what I've been saying all along. So, far from leaving: please stay.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

(Q), you might believe in those figures and statements, but I disagree completely with you.

there is alot of propaganda and lies spreading for hundreds of years in the West about Islam, those who live in the Middle East, and indeed many Non-Muslims will deny your figures as untrue.

The Muslim government did take prisoners of war, however they took it for the state, not for an individual.

The point of mutilation of genitals is new to me. I have lived in the Middle East, studied history there, and have a thorough knowledge of the history of my people. I have never heard this before, I believe it is another one of your misconceptions of Islamic history.

How? As I keep saying, I keep referring back to your own explanations for islam. If someone is insulting islam, it's you, not me.

... ok Geoff I completely hate Ilam and love to insult Islam... sure

Besides, if you knew me, you would know that that simply isn't true. I insult many, many things besides islam.

You must be a very tolerant person then.

Am I wrong in conceiving that you would execute those who leave islam?

False

Or homosexuals?

False

You even threatened someone here who said he was an apostate!

False, please provide quote.

Both those statements by you are lies. I criticize some practitioners, and sometimes I feel pity for them. I invent nothing, but rather quote from islam and muslims themselves. And where have I "criticized anyone who says anything nice about Muslims or Arabs". This, too, is a lie, I regret to say.

Go to the world events forum and your responses on palestinians. You have insulted many muslim ethnic groups. You constantly say Muslims want to enslave others and make them in sevitude tot hem. Which you invant a new meaning to dhimmi, which means protected people. somplete opposite of enslaved.

Another falsehood. I support brutality against no one, although I do believe in a nation's right to defend itself.

.. and kill innocent Palestinians.

I regret to have to tell you that I have not needed at any point to resort to lying either about you or about islam at any point in this thread. It is you who have been progressively maligning my character, first terming any criticism of islam an "insult" (and how, then, is one able to criticize islam in your world? Sad) and now stooping to outright lies against me. Increasingly your position is growing desperate. My position stands: there is something at the least wrong with islamic practice, and at the worst wrong with islam itself - I hope for the former, but frankly expect the latter.

You did not need to, however you have. You cannot debate islam without lying and inventing wierd ideas saying Muslims want to enslave others, making up lies against family of prophet (s), maligning Prophet's character.

You have lied many times on this forum and in particular on your posts concerning Islam. I really don't care what you say about me as I have proved you to be a source of unreliable information.

Your contributions on this thread, far from helping you, have been supporting what I've been saying all along. So, far from leaving: please stay.

Geoff

Because you post replies to almost every post I make in the rleigion forum and try to twist the meaning of my words, you think somehow that i am proving your points.

Hypocrisy is Truth... right Geoff

 

[Michael]

You know anyone can justify Slavery using some BS or another.

White Mans burden ring any bells?

ALL Slavery is wrong. I wonder how you can explain the enslavement of some of the Spanish during the Islamic conquest (not defense) of Spain.

Also there is a series of YES or NO questions still waiting to be addressed.

Michael

 

[GeoffP]

there is alot of propaganda and lies spreading for hundreds of years in the West about Islam, those who live in the Middle East, and indeed many Non-Muslims will deny your figures as untrue.

And they would know because...?

The point of mutilation of genitals is new to me. I have lived in the Middle East, studied history there, and have a thorough knowledge of the history of my people. I have never heard this before, I believe it is another one of your misconceptions of Islamic history.

I believe it may be more of an African islamic thing, but it is far from uncommon. Methinks your ignorance might be feigned.

... ok Geoff I completely hate Ilam and love to insult Islam... sure

You do? Hate's a strong emotion. You should try not to hate things.

Seriously: I disagree with you, ergo I must "hate" islam? There's no doubt I hate parts of it very much: the murder of apostates and homosexuals, the degradation of women (witness: Iran), the supremacism behind which always seems to stand the threat of violence - and which does, in islamic countries - in every religious debate, but I don't hate it per se, athough do tend to think it's a load of codswallow.

You must be a very tolerant person then.

Good lord, grow a sense of humour, please.

False

But none of those things are false. You believe in the killing of apostates and homosexuals. You've admitted it many, many times.

False, please provide quote.

Not false; here's quote:

I would bring him to the Islamic court and if he did not agree with rejecting his new faith, I would allow the Islamic court to dealwith him and perform his execution in a swift and unpainful manner.

That's an implied threat to mustafhakofi.

Go to the world events forum and your responses on palestinians. You have insulted many muslim ethnic groups.

I have not, and I expect an apology for that insult. I have not 'insulted' any ethnic groups, though I have presented an alternative viewpoint that you only seem to be able to interpret as insult. Why is that? Is it because you see islam as being so absolutely right that every disagreement with it can only be founded in - what? "Obstinacy"?

You constantly say Muslims want to enslave others and make them in sevitude tot hem. Which you invant a new meaning to dhimmi, which means protected people. somplete opposite of enslaved.

Wrong and wrong. I do not believe muslims want to enslave others, although your own attitudes suggest that you want islam to become dominant which inevitably means the oppression of all other faiths - mine included. I invent no new meanings to "dhimmi"; I merely record the facts of dhimmitude in the sense in which Mohammed apparently intended it. "Feel themselves subdued", the sura reads. That doesn't mean the same thing as "protected", and it certainly isn't the opposite of enslaved.

.. and kill innocent Palestinians.

Accidentally, sometimes. Compared to Palestinians who always kill innocent Israelis? Ah, but you probably see all Israelis as guilty or evil, no?

You cannot debate islam without lying and inventing wierd ideas saying Muslims want to enslave others, making up lies against family of prophet (s), maligning Prophet's character.

This is a lie. I have illustrated negative aspects of islam and Mohammed; it is not my fault that you have nothing to say in return.

You have lied many times on this forum and in particular on your posts concerning Islam. I really don't care what you say about me as I have proved you to be a source of unreliable information.

Proved where? More lies. Don't lie about me again, please, unless you have proof to back up your accusations.

Because you post replies to almost every post I make in the rleigion forum and try to twist the meaning of my words, you think somehow that i am proving your points.

Again wrong - I reply to the posts I choose to. I twist nothing of your words, but merely emphasize the lengths you would go to to justify your religion - murder and oppression. That's all. Don't lie about my intents, Diamond.

Hypocrisy is Truth... right Geoff

Show me my hypocrisy first, Diamond, and prove to me your truth. Until then you appear to have invective and bile, and nothing else. Well, doublethink, maybe. Do you or do you not understand that no one else here accepts the idea that people who leave islam must be murdered to protect an excuse for a state?

Geoff