The Problem of Hell

Dead people can "reach out and ask for help."

Who do they ask for help?

Well I did not say they were dead. The soul does not die.

They can ask spirits or souls from the higher spheres or God for help.
Sorry, I can't provide empirical evidence for this unless you consider the work of Victor Zammit as such.
http://www.victorzammit.com/

It's just my belief system based on MY intuition, that's why I don't go around condeming atheists or trying to convert them.
 
Respect to you and your belief system :)...there is room for all our variety of thoughts...
 
I was referring to nova900...you presumed I was including you - this is an error on your part.
 
Well I did not say they were dead. The soul does not die.

They can ask spirits or souls from the higher spheres or God for help.
Sorry, I can't provide empirical evidence for this unless you consider the work of Victor Zammit as such.
http://www.victorzammit.com/

It's just my belief system based on MY intuition, that's why I don't go around condeming atheists or trying to convert them.

Nova900, is it the soul or the spirit? Which one? I cannot grasp why people continue to throw out these terms like soul and spirit like they mean nothing. It is either soul or spirit.


iceagecivilizations said:
Dead people can "reach out and ask for help."

Who do they ask for help?

According to the Holy Bible, Iceage, which you defend so vigilantly, you were way off base with this post.

You talk about dead people not being able to reach out yet Jesus said it was very possible:

Luke 16:19-31
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
NKJV


So the rich man was dead, yet reached out to heaven to ask for some water. He also asked for his family to be warned of hell and that it exists.
 
Respect to you and your belief system :)...there is room for all our variety of thoughts...

Thanks! And the same to you. While I may not agree with other peoples' beliefs or lack of one, I will defend their right to do so.
 
Agreed - as long as that belief doesn't require the conversion of non-believers to validate it.
 
I said He will allow people who trust Him to have eternity with Him. I trust Him and i have posed questions to Him, thousands of them. But i do not lay allegations against Him and accuse Him of Evil doings. That’s the line you have transgressed. God is longsuffering to people like you But He is not eternally longsuffering. Either you withdraw your allegations against Him or He will harden your heart and use you as a vessel of His wrath. Do you want to be used by God as a vessel of grace or a vessel of wrath? It is up to you.

Legally executing someone is not murder. God is the ultimate judge perfect in all His decisions. He has the right to give life and take it whenever He likes. And if He chooses to use His followers as agents to carry out His wrath upon offenders then so be it. He can use us or He can use those who are in rebellion against Him, He has used both in the past. You keep on calling God a murderer and you will regret it for eternity. God rightfully carries out wrath upon those who love evil, He has done it in the past and will do it in the future. You don't like that???? Then you side with those who are in rebellion against God and place yourself in a position to justifiably receive his wrath. Eternal wrath in the lake of fire.

Then why do you suppose that you can judge the God of the Bible and declare him guilty? Only God could make such a call. The audacity and pride that you have is astounding. And to think you do not have 100% confidence in your own perfection but still you think your perfect enough to gamble your eternity away by judging God to be evil. Like a fly to beat it’s trying to cool a star going into supernova.


Simply stated, Adstar, I am saying that I think that God is incapable of doing many of the things that are attributed to Him in the Bible, primarily in the Old Testament. I believe that I am not going to hell simply because I dare to think that God might be too good for such behaviors.

And I am also saying that the Bible, which the “evil” (in your own view) Catholic Church canonized, is at the very least, partially an unreliable source of revelation about God. That should be no surprise at all looking at the source. What real basis might you have for claiming that the Catholic Church was ever capable of determining what was and what was not scripture. You really do have a lot of misplaced faith in these people, my friend! But on the other hand, you are also willing to condemn them all to hell. Anyway, this does not make much sense to my warped brain!

I would further dare to apply this same, what I will call, “high moral” view of God’s motives across the board, universally, to examine the actions of any religion or the claims of any religious texts in the entire world. You seem to be willing to do this, as well, but only to every other religion and text but your own, for what appear to be arbitrary reasons.

I know! I will still probably burn eternally just for thinking all of this, right?

I see no reason to continue our current conversation here, do you? I don't know about you, but if I keep going down this road with you I will just end up repeating myself over and over again.

So, until our next conversation, I wish you all the best, Adstar!

And as for all of you atheists out there, thank you, I already know that I am a stupid, idiot! Best wishes to you all as well, anyway!
 
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God can use any vessels He wants to achieve His objectives, including those early Catholics to canonize the texts.

It is interesting that the later Catholics added to the text, which according to Revelation is anathema.
 
But according to some of these verses, there will never be a resurrection.

Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

This verse teaches that there is no resurrection at all. Man is "consumed" and "vanishes away" and "shall come up no more."

I think the context shows it is talking about the present earth because the following verses talk about "his house" and "his place" which are clear references to the present earth. his house or his place will be destroyed at Christ's second coming.

Job 14:10. 12
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

This one teaches that their will not be any resurrection, at least, "till the heavens be no more". Does that really work with any theology you have ever considered? Isn’t it really just saying that a resurrection will never happen? "They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

Yes this fits into the SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) theology. The contextual clue (as you stated) here is in verse 12 "till the heavens are no more". Therefore this refers to the present earth until the second coming of Christ when this earth is destroyed.

Isaiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.

This verse also teaches that there will not be a resurrection. Again, it says, "they shall not rise."

It does not say they shall never rise. Verse 11 shows that the writer is talking about what will happen at Christ's second coming. The context is clear from verses 19-21

This is in clear contradiction to many other texts in the Bible. But this is also exactly what the Jewish Sadducee sect believed and taught their people.

Thanks!


I don't think these are contradictory, it is a mater of perspective. These texts are talking about what happens in this present earth until Jesus comes.

good thread, I enjoy your comments!
 
God can use any vessels He wants to achieve His objectives, including those early Catholics to canonize the texts.

It is interesting that the later Catholics added to the text, which according to Revelation is anathema.
And these later catholics were not vessels of god? What a load of guano.
 
IceAgeCivilizations, Adstar, TheVisitor, and any other Christian out there, I need your help.

I am arguing with someone right now on a different thread as to weather the Holy Spirit is above God. I think that it is pretty clear that nothing and no one is above God, but they seem to think that the Holy Spirit is above God.

So I need you to answer me two questions so that I can use that quote in the other thread. Thank you very much for any responses, I truly appreciate it.

Question 1: Is the Holy Sprit "above" or greater than God in any way, shape, or form?

Question 2: Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God?
 
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Answer 1: Depends

Answer 2: If you really, really want it to be.

Answer 3: If your philosophy is strong and true then it will prevail without recourse to consensus.
 
Is the Holy Sprit "above" or greater than God in any way, shape, or form?

The holy spirit is the spirit of god.

Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God?

Yes!

At least that's how I was tought when I was a catholic. It's truly non-serquitus isn't it?

And btw jesus is also god! :rolleyes:

Go figure!
 
Simply stated, Adstar, I am saying that I think that God is incapable of doing many of the things that are attributed to Him in the Bible, primarily in the Old Testament. I believe that I am not going to hell simply because I dare to think that God might be too good for such behaviors.

And I am also saying that the Bible, which the “evil” (in your own view) Catholic Church canonized, is at the very least, partially an unreliable source of revelation about God. That should be no surprise at all looking at the source. What real basis might you have for claiming that the Catholic Church was ever capable of determining what was and what was not scripture. You really do have a lot of misplaced faith in these people, my friend! But on the other hand, you are also willing to condemn them all to hell. Anyway, this does not make much sense to my warped brain!

I would further dare to apply this same, what I will call, “high moral” view of God’s motives across the board, universally, to examine the actions of any religion or the claims of any religious texts in the entire world. You seem to be willing to do this, as well, but only to every other religion and text but your own, for what appear to be arbitrary reasons.

I know! I will still probably burn eternally just for thinking all of this, right?

I see no reason to continue our current conversation here, do you? I don't know about you, but if I keep going down this road with you I will just end up repeating myself over and over again.

Do you think i reply to you to move you? I don't really. I think your too far gone to be moved at all. I reply to you for the benefit of those who may be reading but not posting. Some of them are open to the Word of God.

God often throws anti-christs in my way to bring out the message he has given me to give. The resistance gives me an opportunity to give wisdom. If not to the one i reply to, then to another who is reading along who is not here just to trash talk the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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