The Problem of Hell

[kl5k]

Please consider the following...

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.

There are many other verses that suggest this same thing.

Thank you for your comments!

So how come the bible (Jude 1:7) says Sodom and Gomorrah expierences "enternal fire" but 2 Peter 2:6 clearly says they were burned to ashes? Either that is a contradiction, or it means eternal should be read as an eternal result not a continous action. Like Malachi says, the wicked will be ashes under the righteous feet. How can they be still burning if they are ashes? Besides that it is contrary to a loving and just God. If people were tortured in a burning hell for eternity, then sin would be around for enternity and that is exactly the point of hell is to get rid of sin.

Here are some other texts to ponder (underline is my emphsis):

Malachi 4: 1-3: ""For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the Lord of hosts."

2 Thes. 1:8,9: "... They will be punished with everlasting destruction ... "

destruction means it does not go on forever.

Matt 10:28: "... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

destroy means there is an end to it.

Rev. 20:9: "Fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

devoured means they are consumed and there is and end to it.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

thank you for pointing out my mistake. Discussions "evovle" (did I just type that). That is true, but why move on when you have not even come to a conclusion, unless you have arrived at truth and you never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion. Notice how you understood what I meant despite my spelling mistake. How was that possible?

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

At the time, I was of the understanding that Adstar was chalking my entire argument up to one thing, pride. I saw no point in continuing that avenue with him so I changed it. Adstar did not object to the turn in our conversation, so why should you?

I personally know of nothing in our conversation that was a "red herring". Would you please explain how you think this applies. Or am I misunderstanding you in some way here?

Thank You!

 

[Warrior61]

I do not see why you would want to move to pride. Yes Adstar did follow, why, I do not know. I am jsut wandering why it would change that quickly. If you guys came to a conclusion then ok, but I saw at no point in time where you guys did, so I truly apologize for labeling it as "red herring." I apologize.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I do not see why you would want to move to pride. Yes Adstar did follow, why, I do not know. I am jsut wandering why it would change that quickly. If you guys came to a conclusion then ok, but I saw at no point in time where you guys did, so I truly apologize for labeling it as "red herring." I apologize.

Thanks! No Problem!

 

[SnakeLord]

That is true, but why move on when you have not even come to a conclusion, unless you have arrived at truth and you never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion. Notice how you understood what I meant despite my spelling mistake. How was that possible

Why? Because that's what conversation does. Perhaps it is a negative side-effect of being human, and we can all pray to the gods to change it, but for now it is the way people are. They get side-tracked, they get distracted. Why, just the other day I was talking to my neighbour... (see, that's my point).

Let it be said that there is no such thing as "never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion".. What you need to take into account is that everyone you're expressing your opinion to also has an opinion, (and some have slightly more), and as such discussion will digress and evolve. get used to it..

 

[SetiAlpha6]

So how come the bible (Jude 1:7) says Sodom and Gomorrah expierences "enternal fire" but 2 Peter 2:6 clearly says they were burned to ashes? Either that is a contradiction, or it means eternal should be read as an eternal result not a continous action. Like Malachi says, the wicked will be ashes under the righteous feet. How can they be still burning if they are ashes? Besides that it is contrary to a loving and just God. If people were tortured in a burning hell for eternity, then sin would be around for enternity and that is exactly the point of hell is to get rid of sin.

Here are some other texts to ponder (underline is my emphsis):

Malachi 4: 1-3: ""For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the Lord of hosts."

kl5k, is it possible that Malachi was talking only about the physical, or the earthly, or in other words, what will happen to their body, and is not referring to hell at all?

Or, is their something that I am missing in the context?

 

[Warrior61]

Why? Because that's what conversation does. Perhaps it is a negative side-effect of being human, and we can all pray to the gods to change it, but for now it is the way people are. They get side-tracked, they get distracted. Why, just the other day I was talking to my neighbour... (see, that's my point).

Let it be said that there is no such thing as "never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion".. What you need to take into account is that everyone you're expressing your opinion to also has an opinion, (and some have slightly more), and as such discussion will digress and evolve. get used to it..

I am fully aware of that, however if you go to talk to someone about fixing your car and they start talking about a car they bought how is that pertinent? While the discussions might have things in common it is isnt logical to move on with out actually coming to a conclusion. Your example about distraction is true but here you can see things as a whole. I am all for a debate evolving but lets come to a conclusion.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

 

[zenbabelfish]

I think its hegemonic tool to control both the individual and masses. It is self-regulating (everyone monitors one another for signs of possession), confession relieves the pain of guilt - now the principle is being centralised and technologized.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I am fully aware of that, however if you go to talk to someone about fixing your car and they start talking about a car they bought how is that pertinent? While the discussions might have things in common it is isnt logical to move on with out actually coming to a conclusion. Your example about distraction is true but here you can see things as a whole. I am all for a debate evolving but lets come to a conclusion.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

You do realize that this very conversation is off the topic of the original thread, don't you? And that you are doing exactly the same thing that you are complaining about!

 

[Bruce Beal]

Why argue about something you do not believe and cannot dissprove?
That is a more fitting exercise for Astro-physicists.

 

[Warrior61]

You do realize that this very conversation is off the topic of the original thread, don't you? And that you are doing exactly the same thing that you are complaining about!

You do realize that the topic of this thread has evolved and my "complaining" is pertinent. Thank you though. Honestly. You started the thread and now you come and enlighten me of me talking about something different. See how frustrating it is. Now you see my point or atleast share in my frustration. But I was wrong. Let me type it again and underline it because I do not think that is seen here often. I was wrong. What I saw as moving away from a topic without it being resolved was simply the progression of a debate/discussion where conclusions are drawn with out acknowledement. I am sorry. But again you see why I would be frustrated.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

 

[The Devil Inside]

by any chance, are you the "Ultimate Warrior"?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

In an effort to pick up were we left off...

We obtained the knowledge of Both Good and Evil and we have the free will to love one and hate the other. We decide from our own free will what we will love and what will distain.

Adam and eve decided they wanted to be Gods just like the God of Abraham. They decided to take satans bait. They had contact with God they knew what He said but choose to disbelieve Him and believe satan. But God had a plan to offer reconciliation and healing to humanity but again it is up to the individual to accept of reject His offer again. People still disbelieve the Word of God.

Adstar, Adam and Eve made their decision before they even knew what the knowledge of Good and Evil was. They did not make their decision with a full understanding of it! They made their decision without knowing what they were doing. So, how was their condemnation just?

Isaiah 5
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!

I agree completely with this scripture! Your faith justifies genocide over and over again, justifies slavery in general and actually provides instructions on how to sell your own daughter into sexual slavery, legalizes and encourages polygamy in the Old Testament, celebrates the killing of children for acting like children, teaches that the killing of a person for merely picking up sticks on the Sabbath is good, and calls people who really are seeking the truth, arrogant and prideful...etc. etc. And you are calling me evil? Why? Because I object to all of these atrocities?

But only a God who conformed to your sence of what is right... Right. The only God that you would want to sit at the feet of is a God in your own image. As soon as any God taught you something against your ideas of what a God should teach you would spit in His face and turn your back and walk out.

I am sorry, I do have morals. If God actually told me to kill all my children I would not do it. I would even go to Hell instead! You would kill them, because you would have no other choice, to preserve your ticket to heaven, and because you are amoral. If you try and save your life, you will lose it. Seems like I heard that before somewhere! Hmmm?

Are you saying that God will only allow "yes men" into His kingdom? And that everyone who actually has any character or backbone of their own will be kicked out, or excluded, or thrown into hell? You cannot be! Can God really be that small and insecure?

Time for you to tell me how prideful I am again.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Why argue about something you do not believe and cannot dissprove?
That is a more fitting exercise for Astro-physicists.

Over time, it helps me figure out where I am wrong in my thinking!

 

[broadandbeaver]

Yes, according to the Bible, Hell is indeed under our feet in the heart of the earth, that is, unless God moved it or something and did not tell us. It is supposed to be somewhere between where I live and China. I will be happy to find the references for you if you wish.

Would you please so kind as to point out chapter and verse that states this. Maybe I missed it on one of my readings.

My understanding of the locations of heaven and hell are not physical locations but moral ones...[as described in the bible] hell being beneath man and heaven being above him. A place for one to strive for is a high point [heaven] in mans moral make-up. Hell being beneath mans make up.

I don't know if I believe that GOD is all-loving. All Merciful, All Beneficent yes. HE is a GOD of love, yes - simply because HE created it. But HE created ALL THINGS.

 

[SnakeLord]

My understanding of the locations of heaven and hell are not physical locations but moral ones...[as described in the bible] hell being beneath man and heaven being above him.

From a biblical perspective 'heaven' is simply the sky. 'heaven' as humans view it, (i.e the place where you live your second life), is on another earth, in another Jerusalem - this time made of gold and gems instead of mud and camel poo.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Would you please so kind as to point out chapter and verse that states this. Maybe I missed it on one of my readings.

I will be happy to! I will get them together for you as soon as I can. Hopefully a little later today. That way you can decide what they mean for yourself.

Thanks!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Would you please so kind as to point out chapter and verse that states this. Maybe I missed it on one of my readings.

Here are a few that indicate that hell is physically below us.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psalm 55:15
Let death seize them;Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death.

Isaiah 14:9
“ Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.

Ezekiel 31:15
“Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.

Ezekiel 31:16
I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.

Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.

Ezekiel 32:21
The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: ‘ They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’

Ezekiel 32:27
They do not lie with the mighty Who are fallen of the uncircumcised, Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; They have laid their swords under their heads, But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Amos 9:2
“ Though they dig into hell, From there My hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down;

 

[Warrior61]

by any chance, are you the "Ultimate Warrior"?

What?

 

[kl5k]

Here are a few that indicate that hell is physically below us.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

...

Amos 9:2
“ Though they dig into hell, From there My hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down;

Yep, I agree hell is under us. But, every text in the old testament that uses the Hebrew word She'ol can translate to grave or hell. Isn't it interesting that none of the old testament texts talk about burning forever?