The soul does not have everlasting life. Eze. 18:20 states "The soul that sins shall die."
The Problem of Hell
- Thread starter SetiAlpha6
- Start date
The soul does not have everlasting life. Eze. 18:20 states "The soul that sins shall die."
Perhaps you are right! Perhaps there is no eternal life?
Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Job 14:10. 12
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 20:7
Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung.
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 88:5
The dead ... whom thou rememberest no more.
Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.
How do these verses work into your belief system?
Ok i have been away for a few day sorry.
War if carried out as an instrument of Gods wrath is not wrong. When God told the Jews to take up arms and fight it was His orders to them and it was right and good for them to hear His will and take up arms and fight.
So i believe in the OT scriptures. That God is justifiable in calling upon His followers to engage in carnal warfare at any time He wants. But the last Orders that came from God through Jesus was for us not to engage in warfare (carnal warfare) but to love our enemies and give the Gospel to all men.
That does not mean that Jesus was saying that the wars of the OT where evil and wrong. Jesus was not making judgement call on the goodness or badness of the wars of the OT. Neither am i. What it means is the ultimate Authority in the lives of those who believe God had changed His rule for us upon the death and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus..
But it is not an end to war because this period of grace will come to an end upon the day of the Messiah's return.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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If one believes that their sin is wrong then they have the right spirit towards God and are forgiven through Jesus.
If one believes that their sin is good then they have the wrong spirit towards God and do not have forgiveness.
Read: and read it slowly.
Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Do you get it?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
A conclusion is only obtained when people are seeking one. If people want a conclusion they will keep on digging. But after they breakaway running after them is a waste of time. I am not into force feeding.
Also when people already have a conclusion and are only feigning that they are seeking a conclusion the breaking away happens quite quickly.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
He will allow people who trust Him.
And the people who trust Him place His will above their will even if they do not understand His will.
Why do you seek a God when you have made yourself god? That’s what i do not understand about you. You could not follow anything that goes against your measure of what is moral so why do you need to seek a God for guidance on anything?
SetiAlpha6 could you tell me as best you can why you are seeking God?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Ah…once again the absurd is rescued from the precipice of reason by a simple…”misunderstanding” requiring a simple reinterpretation.
See when the Bible says 6 days it was considered literally…until science made it absurd…then it became a “misunderstanding” which just had to be adjusted by reinventing what ‘six days’ means.
The problem of Hell, you say?
Pashaw!!!!
One only needs to reinvent what was meant.
See, eternity now doesn’t mean for all time….it means that it just …feeeeeels like it’s for all time.
Whew….I thought I was trapped in a logical fallacy there until I applied the “correct epistemology” to prove the “ontology” of the non-existent existence.
If I had known that all one required to continue remaining obtuse was the “correct interpretations” and the “right epistemology” I would have saved myself all that trouble of actually rationalizing my opinions.
Let us all learn from this great sage of religious absurdity who applies one epistemology in his life and another for his “after-life”.
Let us try to figure out what the difference in intellectual integrity and quality there is between him and those “suicide-bombers” in the Middle East.
See when the Bible says 6 days it was considered literally…until science made it absurd…then it became a “misunderstanding” which just had to be adjusted by reinventing what ‘six days’ means.
The problem of Hell, you say?
Pashaw!!!!
One only needs to reinvent what was meant.
See, eternity now doesn’t mean for all time….it means that it just …feeeeeels like it’s for all time.
Whew….I thought I was trapped in a logical fallacy there until I applied the “correct epistemology” to prove the “ontology” of the non-existent existence.
If I had known that all one required to continue remaining obtuse was the “correct interpretations” and the “right epistemology” I would have saved myself all that trouble of actually rationalizing my opinions.
Let us all learn from this great sage of religious absurdity who applies one epistemology in his life and another for his “after-life”.
Let us try to figure out what the difference in intellectual integrity and quality there is between him and those “suicide-bombers” in the Middle East.
Hell is created by Christians.
Just that comment alone will get you into hell....but fear not, our resident expert on the Beyond and absolute says that it isn't forever...it'll just feel like it is.
you know, a session of torture to teach you a lesson and make you scream "Uncle!!!!!!"
Now doesn't that sound like a benevolent, good, God and doesn't He mirror His followers perfectly?
Let us expand on what this great sciforum sage lightgigantic is teaching us, for a moment.
You see if the “correct” epistemology is applied to Islam, then Islam becomes irrefutable and if the “correct” epistemology is applied on the ontology of Big Foot, then it is ‘fact’.
The central idea here being “correct”, as in: "Proposed by the “right” authorities".
See, science has it backwards.
It uses senses to perceive phenomena and then it tries to extrapolate their meaning or tries to explain then afterwards – in essence it first perceives and then tries to find evidence to explain what is percieved.
Our sage lightgigantic “correctly” begins with the explanation and then tries to find perceptions in support of it.
He hypothesizes a phenomenon (or is taught it), beforehand, and then seeks for reasons to maintain its existence. The meaning and explanations are self-evident and one must only use reason to construct evidence or the “correct” epistemology in support of it.
Knowledge precedes awareness.
Fabulous.
You people are just misguided. If you apply this "epistemological" method then any ontology becomes apparent. Try it.
Let us apply this directly and see how it works.
Rationally lightgigantic and his mental brothers IceageCivilizations &
SetiAlpha6 appear retarded and obtuse and stupid, yet if one assumes that they are intelligent, beforehand, and apply the “correct” epistemology then one proceeds to find evidence in support of their presupposed intelligence.
Voila!!!! Instant success.
Their stupidity only becomes evident when one proceeds in judging them from appearances but if one begins by presupposing their intelligence then the correct epistemology becomes self-evident.
I presuppose lightgigantic isn’t retarded and then interpret his usage of the words “epistemology” and “ontology” as evidence in support of my preferred thesis.
Success, despite all evidence he become wise and he understands and he possesses irrefutable proof of a living God.
I love humanity.
You see if the “correct” epistemology is applied to Islam, then Islam becomes irrefutable and if the “correct” epistemology is applied on the ontology of Big Foot, then it is ‘fact’.
The central idea here being “correct”, as in: "Proposed by the “right” authorities".
See, science has it backwards.
It uses senses to perceive phenomena and then it tries to extrapolate their meaning or tries to explain then afterwards – in essence it first perceives and then tries to find evidence to explain what is percieved.
Our sage lightgigantic “correctly” begins with the explanation and then tries to find perceptions in support of it.
He hypothesizes a phenomenon (or is taught it), beforehand, and then seeks for reasons to maintain its existence. The meaning and explanations are self-evident and one must only use reason to construct evidence or the “correct” epistemology in support of it.
Knowledge precedes awareness.
Fabulous.
You people are just misguided. If you apply this "epistemological" method then any ontology becomes apparent. Try it.
Let us apply this directly and see how it works.
Rationally lightgigantic and his mental brothers IceageCivilizations &
SetiAlpha6 appear retarded and obtuse and stupid, yet if one assumes that they are intelligent, beforehand, and apply the “correct” epistemology then one proceeds to find evidence in support of their presupposed intelligence.
Voila!!!! Instant success.
Their stupidity only becomes evident when one proceeds in judging them from appearances but if one begins by presupposing their intelligence then the correct epistemology becomes self-evident.
I presuppose lightgigantic isn’t retarded and then interpret his usage of the words “epistemology” and “ontology” as evidence in support of my preferred thesis.
Success, despite all evidence he become wise and he understands and he possesses irrefutable proof of a living God.
I love humanity.
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...and kill women and innocent children and animals. This is called genocide and you are justifying it! But they were also, on occasion, commanded to spare the lives of all of the virgins and keep them for themselves and the priests. This is called rape and sexual slavery and you are even willing to justify this! You are calling "evil" good. Surely you must realize within yourself that you have been stripped of all of your own morality and that you are now capable of justifying whatever evil might be necessary just to hold onto your faith. You can see that, can’t you?
At the same time you would not hesitate to condemn these very same practices in Catholicism and in the Quran, even when they claim that they are doing the will of God. In this way, you are able to both justify every evil that occurs in the Bible and condemn the very same evil when anyone else does it. Thus, any evil can be justified for one’s self and condemned for all others! I was wrong, this is going way beyond being merely amoral, this way of thinking is irrational and is profoundly immoral. This is exactly how the Nazi’s justified the Holocaust, Adstar!
This is merely your own personal attempt to rationalize all of these atrocities for your own personal convenience, nothing more! Don’t forget God does not change. If genocide, and rape, and sexual slavery were all moral in the Old Testament, as you must surely claim, then they would also have to be moral today. He changes not, therefore morality changes not. Perhaps you have rejected the Catholic Church and the Quran on a false basis. You have removed the primary basis for determining whether any document is the “Word of God” or not. And you are trying to embrace both sides of this problem at the same time. You are welcome to it. But, to do that you must call "evil" good.
As for me, I cannot bring myself to do that anymore.
Thank You
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A conclusion is only obtained when people are seeking one. If people want a conclusion they will keep on digging. But after they breakaway running after them is a waste of time. I am not into force feeding.
Also when people already have a conclusion and are only feigning that they are seeking a conclusion the breaking away happens quite quickly.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I agree!
He will allow people to what? Question Him?
If God is capable of commanding us to perform immoral acts then how are we to distinguish His commands from those of Satan? How will we ever be able to distinguish His will from Satan's if they both look the same?
If you were to tell me that you do not understand how God could ever have commanded the atrocities that are described in the Bible, I would agree with you. That is what I have been trying to tell you! But I don't remember you saying that before. And perhaps you are not saying that even now! I don’t know?
You do me a great disservice, Sir.
I am not God, nor have I ever thought anything of the kind. You are listening to all of the lies that are telling you all of the things that I am supposed to be. I have always sought God to show me the “truth”. And I still do, even though I have many doubts! I am imperfect and flawed and I am doing the best that I can to figure things out.
Yes those texts are great and they describe the state of a dead human whether righteous or wicked until the resurrection. I am not saying that there is no enternal life. Jesus is the giver of eternal life (John 10:28). I am just saying that human's do not have an enternal soul. Eternal life is only given as a reward for righteousness and that the reward of the wicked is not enternal life in hell.
But according to some of these verses, there will never be a resurrection.
Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
This verse teaches that there is no resurrection at all. Man is "consumed" and "vanishes away" and "shall come up no more."
Job 14:10. 12
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
This one teaches that their will not be any resurrection, at least, "till the heavens be no more". Does that really work with any theology you have ever considered? Isn’t it really just saying that a resurrection will never happen? "They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
Isaiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.
This verse also teaches that there will not be a resurrection. Again, it says, "they shall not rise."
This is in clear contradiction to many other texts in the Bible. But this is also exactly what the Jewish Sadducee sect believed and taught their people.
Thanks!
I said He will allow people who trust Him to have eternity with Him. I trust Him and i have posed questions to Him, thousands of them. But i do not lay allegations against Him and accuse Him of Evil doings. That’s the line you have transgressed. God is longsuffering to people like you But He is not eternally longsuffering. Either you withdraw your allegations against Him or He will harden your heart and use you as a vessel of His wrath. Do you want to be used by God as a vessel of grace or a vessel of wrath? It is up to you.
Legally executing someone is not murder. God is the ultimate judge perfect in all His decisions. He has the right to give life and take it whenever He likes. And if He chooses to use His followers as agents to carry out His wrath upon offenders then so be it. He can use us or He can use those who are in rebellion against Him, He has used both in the past. You keep on calling God a murderer and you will regret it for eternity. God rightfully carries out wrath upon those who love evil, He has done it in the past and will do it in the future. You don't like that???? Then you side with those who are in rebellion against God and place yourself in a position to justifiably receive his wrath. Eternal wrath in the lake of fire.
Not atrocities but justifiable judgements.
Say what?
Then why do you suppose that you can judge the God of the Bible and declare him guilty? Only God could make such a call. The audacity and pride that you have is astounding. And to think you do not have 100% confidence in your own perfection but still you think your perfect enough to gamble your eternity away by judging God to be evil. Like a fly to beat it’s trying to cool a star going into supernova.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
You are insane. Your kind of delusions are what perpetuate violence and cultism. I would like to use technology to create an exact replica of your delusions of hell (maybe in a giant orbiting asteroid) and put you in it. You say we are going to hell? For rebelling against your imaginary sky daddy? No. You are going to hell. My very real and technically accurate reproduction of the hell you so love to invoke on the rest of us for not following your mass stupidity. Now all I need is funding for the project.
SetiAlpha,
If you want a more clear loving image of God you might wish to explore some of the eastern religions or perhaps like myself the spiritual beliefs of the ancient egyptians. Far from being "evil" as many fundamentalists like Franklin Graham would have you believe, they have nowhere near the carnage and atrocities that lie in the bible. Even most of the ancient egyptians believed that their stories where "mythical " in nature and simply designed to help the human mind connect to the concept of God. At the heart of their beliefs lies the one God of the universe. A god that does represent selfless love, without the portrayal of a angry male god more concerned with pettiness and afflicted with so many negative qualities.
Forget the threats from the fundies. There is no eternal hell, perhaps limited periods of atonement for some people but all souls have a opportunity in this state to reach out and ask for help and over time advance to a higher spiritual state.
Anyways, just my opinion, as this God is one that is inclusive of all life across the universe and harbors no ill will.
Dead people can "reach out and ask for help."
Who do they ask for help?
Who do they ask for help?