Well its good that you can tell the Muslims about Arabic and their notion of God. What would they ever do otherwise?
See previous comment.
Sam, I am not telling "Muslims" anything.
I am having a debate on a Sciforums board. This debate seems to me to be relatively futile.
We are coming from this question at two different angles.
Me, I'm an atheist, I have no beleif in any of the God(s) and I think there should be a rational scientifically based answer.
You are a theist, you have a beleif in the Muslim God and maintain all other Gods are delusional. You are also a scientist and therefor think there should be a rational scientifically based answer.
However, without a double blind experiment our prejudices cloud the manner in which we interpret the archaeological data.
For example. You really think that the Qur'an is somehow the words of God that were put into Mohammad's head and came out of his mouth like a microphone. Me, I think the Qur'an, because it is 70% identical to an adjacent Middle Eastern tribe's book, it is simply a copy of that work blended with Arab myths.
This is a summary of how I seem to see things. Maybe I am wrong? Maybe I am stressed from working and it just seems this way but this is how it seems to me.
I said Slavery is wrong - you said it's fine if they are POWs.
I said war of aggression is wrong - you said it is justified.
I said murder is wrong and asked if Mohammad personally killed anyone, I didn't get an answer.
I asked: If the Qur'an really is so special then what's so novel and special?I didn't get an answer. (actually I got called an hypocritical hate monger prejudiced ass hole by one person - all for asking)
I asked when was the Qur'an written? I didn't get an answer.
I asked who were the people that wrote the Qur'an? I didn't get an answer.
I asked which parts where written by whom? I didn't get an answer.
I asked why the oldest Qur'an found are different than the modern Qur'an. I didn't get an answer.
I asked what happened to the Jewish tribes that were in KSA? I didn't get an answer although I think they were all converted by the sword or killed.
We also discussed our opinions on polygamy. I said it's sick. You seemed to agree. But, then religion kicked in and you said well Mohammad is different so it is actually OK.
To imagine how that poor young girl was married to a 50+ year old man who hears voices in his head, I said freaks me out, like a sick feeling and shutter, I said he could have adopted her you said it's fine he took her as another wife.
In an attempt to measure novelty and philosophy I compared the massive changes brought about by the Communist manifesto with those brought about by Mohammadism. Communism in a VERY short period of time eliminated polygamy, made slavery illegal and elevated women to the equal legal status of a man. In Mohammadism Slavery was institutionalized and practiced for 1400 years, polygamy is rife and women are not legally the same as a man in many, if not most, Islamic countries. To you this says nothing about the two life philosophies?
These debates roll like water off the back of a duck. The reasons are there is no reasoning. Your underlying premise is there is a God and he used a human named Mohammad as a loud speaker and that is that and mine is there is no God and Mohammad, if he even hear a voice, got someone to copy the nearby peoples religous beliefs and blend it with theres and that is that.
For now we are prejudiced and so some of these debates seem futile ..
I see things like this:
The Babylonians copied myths from the Sumerians.
The Jews copied myths from the Babylonians (ex Gilgamesh).
The Greeks copied myths from the Egyptians.
The Xians copied myths from the Greek Jews.
The Romans copied myths from the Greeks.
The Muslims copied myths from the Jews.
The Baha'i' copied myths from the Muslims.
The Buddhist copied myths from the Hindu.
The Zoroastrians copied myths from the Hindu.
You'd probably agree with everything except that the Muslims did not copy their myths. Mohammad heard a voice from an angle relaying a message from a God and this message was special because it cleared up all these copying mistakes and then somehow at sometime by whomever it became the perfect book and therefor I am not going to die but I get to live after I die.
:bugeye:
Well, sometimes it's just seems we are going no where and I am probably pissing you off so I'd rather just say screw it than conitnue to make you peeved.
Michael
Lastly, for what it's worth - these are the answers I got from some ex-Muslim friends that are inclined to talk about religion and history.
Did Mohammad personally killed anyone? My buddy says yes he most definitely killed many people.
Is there anything at all that is novel in the Qur'an? My buddy said outside of saying Mohammad is the Last messenger no, it's copies of Zoroastrian, Xian, Jewish and Arabian myths - many parts of the Qur'an are older than the Qur'an.
When was the Qur'an written? My buddy said different parts where written by different people at different times.
Who wrote the Qur'an? My buddy said that most of it was written by a Persian Zoroastrian and Ethiopian Xian priest.
Which parts where written by whom? My buddy said that the classic Zoroastrians parts, such as the sun setting in a muddy spring, where copiled by the Persian while the Jewish and Christian parts where compiled by the Ethiopian though the different parts were written by different people are folk stories. They would ask Mohammad to memorize over and over specific passages and together all three would pretend it was a "revelation". Sometimes Mohammad would have to have a new revelation because he forgot a bit or they decided it would be better to say it a different way.
Why are the oldest Qur'an different than the modern Qur'an? My buddy said it is because the Qur'an has changed over time and thus are different but not by very mucyh. He mentioned that even modern Qur'an have a few different Arabic words depending on the country you buy it in (ex: Morocco versus Indonesia).
What happened to the Jewish tribes that were in KSA? My buddy said Mohammad led an army and killed them and he even took a Jews woman whose husband had just been murdered for sex. Kind of sad and sick to me, but I'm sure it's fine and I'm just weird like that.
Michael
