The Muslim Black Box: Kaaba

[Michael]

Bahaullah is a religious teacher.

That is your interpretation.

However many, if not almost all, Baha'i, consider Bahá'u'lláh to be the "supreme Manifestation of God" who fulfilled all of the eschatological expectations of a prophetic cycle beginning with Adam (and including Abrahamic religions, as well as Zoroastrianism, the Dharmic religions, and others). Bahá'ís see Bahá'u'lláh as the initiator of a new religion, as Jesus or Muhammad — but also the initiator of a new cycle, like that attributed to Adam.

(from wiki)

Obviously many, if not most, Baha'i would see your comment that Bahá'u'lláh was merely only a teacher about religion as insulting their Prophet. To all Baha'i, Bahá'u'lláh is much much much more than a mere teacher.

However, as you pointedly said earlier, for you even the possibility of Bahá'u'lláh being more than a mere teach can not exist.

Polytheism is just worshipping God in his aspects rather than as an entity.

Again, for many Polytheists (in the past and present) they see the Gods as separate individual beings. Probably the majority of polytheists would see your reinterpretation of their religious beleif as insulting.


So it seems that when you say Islam is inclusive what you mean is Muslims REinterpret other people's beliefs from their own narrow dogmatic belief system.

Well I'm sure you'd agree that so does every single belief system that has ever been (including my own).


To say Islam is inclusive in this sense would be akin to a Christian saying Christianity is an "inclusive" religion. And when asked, what about Islam and what about Mohammad? They would say, oh, yes, why it's obvious - he was posses by Satan.
:bugeye:
Or a Buddhist saying: Oh, yes, Mohammad was at the beginning of a long process of enlightenment and He will be reborn along with everyone else who didn't reach .. ... ... bla bla bla... ... ... .


I think we can now agree there is nothing new in that sort of concept; even I, as an Atheist, do that! I'm certainly not going to say Atheism is an all "inclusive" belief system simply because I have an opinion on other people's belief systems! [although as an Agnostic Atheist I do maintain they may be correct in THEIR belief. Not my interpretation of their belief but in their actually belief.]

Do you agree?

Michael


PS: I still wondered at your opinion on why do you suppose Baha'i' are persecuted by some governments in the ME and not by others?

 

[Michael]

Some interesting observations from the international Baha'i website:



What is the relationship of the Bahá’í Faith to Islam?

The Founder of the Bahá'í Faith, Bahá’u’lláh, was born into a Muslim family and society. Thus, in much the same way as Christianity grew out of Judaism, or Buddhism out of Hinduism, the Bahá’í Faith emerged from an Islamic context. However, like them, the Bahá’í Faith is an independent religion with its own laws, teachings, and institutions.


Bahá'u'lláh: Manifestation of God

Bahá'u'lláh was thus described by the well-known Cambridge University Orientalist Edward Granville Browne in 1890. Bahá'u'lláh had, at that time, been a prisoner and an exile for almost 40 years and His teachings were shrouded in obscurity; today He is recognized by millions of followers around the world as the Manifestation of God or Divine Teacher for this age. According to Bahá'í belief, Manifestations of God, including Moses, Abraham, Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, and Buddha, have appeared at intervals throughout history to found the world's great religious systems. They have been sent by a loving Creator to enable us to know and to worship Him and to bring human civilization to ever higher levels of achievement.

Do Bahá’ís believe in Heaven and Hell?

For Bahá’ís, the concepts of Heaven and Hell are allegories for nearness and remoteness from God. When we die, the condition of our souls determines our experience of the afterlife. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but spiritual realities.

and of course you ALWAYS have to have this one to have a good religion:

What happens when I die?

After its separation from the physical body, the soul enters into a spiritual realm of existence in which it draws ever closer to God. Its progress depends on the preparation it made on this earthly plane in response to the teachings of God’s Messengers.


Actually, you may be surprised to know there are MANY MANY Baha'i here in Australia and in LA. Due to the religious persecution they faced in Islamic countries many migrated here.

Actually, Baha'i kind of remind me of Jehovah's Witnesses a little.....

Michael

 

[Michael]

IceAgeCivilizations, cat got your tongue again? Could you do me the favor of answer these questions:

1) Does the possibility exist that Jesus was not the Messiah but was just an ordinary man?

2) Does the possibility exist that there is no God?

3) Does the possibility exist that 5 Gods exist?

4) Does the possibility exist that the Shinto Gods of Japan are real?

5) Does the possibility exist that Jesus was an allegory and never really existed?


Thanks,
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

That is your interpretation.

Again, for many Polytheists (in the past and present) they see the Gods as separate individual beings. Probably the majority of polytheists would see your reinterpretation of their religious beleif as insulting.

Do you agree?

]I still wondered at your opinion on why do you suppose Baha'i' are persecuted by some governments in the ME and not by others?

1. Its based on the teachings of the Bahaullah which I can support them with, and since I do not desire to inflict my interpretations of Bahai, my interpretation of Bahai is inconsequential. Similarly, I am pretty sure that many people interpret Islam differently than I do, but again, since I... you get the picture.

2. No doubt but since I do not intend to...etc.

You see I am not responsible for how other people regard their faith, only for how I regard mine. I'm not an evangelist. You asked me why Islam is inclusive, and I explained what the Quran says and how I use it to interpret other religious leaders and different belief systems.

Do you suppose those other religions believe in the inclusivity of Islam? Does it make any difference to the way I think about it?:shrug:

As for persecution, there is a lot of politics attached to it. Why do you suppose Palestinian children are shot by Israel and not by any other ME nation? That kind of question need not be religious and may have more to do with the status of that minority in that society.

e.g.

Bahá’u’lláh’s writings deal with a variety of themes that challenge long-cherished doctrines of Shí‘i‐Islam. In addition to making the ‘heretic’[sic] claim of being a ‘Manifestation of God,’ he suggested that school curricula should include ‘Western Sciences,’ that the nation states (Muslim and non-Muslim) should establish a world federal government, and that men and women were equal. Bahá’u’lláh also wrote that in this time and age, priests were no longer necessary for religious guidance. Humanity, he argued, had reached an age of maturity where it was incumbent upon every individual to search for God and truth independently.

These principles did not only call into question the need for a priesthood, but also the entire Shí‘i ecclesiastical structure and the vast system of endowments, benefices and fees that sustained it. No surprise then that in the following decades until the overthrow of the Qájár dynasty in 1925, it was the mullas who instigated attacks against the Bahá’ís in cities or villages where the clerical establishment was particularly influential.

 

[Michael]

1. Its based on the teachings of the Bahaullah which I can support them with, and since I do not desire to inflict my interpretations of Bahai, my interpretation of Bahai is inconsequential. Similarly, I am pretty sure that many people interpret Islam differently than I do, but again, since I... you get the picture.

2. No doubt but since I do not intend to...etc.

You see I am not responsible for how other people regard their faith, only for how I regard mine. I'm not an evangelist. You asked me why Islam is inclusive, and I explained what the Quran says and how I use it to interpret other religious leaders and different belief systems.

Do you suppose those other religions believe in the inclusivity of Islam? Does it make any difference to the way I think about it?:shrug:

As for persecution, there is a lot of politics attached to it. Why do you suppose Palestinian children are shot by Israel and not by any other ME nation? That kind of question need not be religious and may have more to do with the status of that minority in that society.

e.g.

- The Palestinians are shot at because they are Muslim. If they were Good Jews they would be welcomed into Jewish Isreal and not murdered.

- The Baha'i are persecuted because they are Baha'i. If they were Good Muslim they would have been welcomed by Muslims and not murdered.

- The polytheistic Arabs were persecuted because they were polytheistic. If they were Good Muslims they would be welcomed by Muslims and not murdered.

- Non-Christians living in medieval Christian Europe were murdered for not being Good Christians. For a good Christian is impossible that any other beleif system could be correct. The possibility does not exist. In exactly the same way you think it is impossible for there to be 5 separate individual Gods so do Christians think it is impossible for Mohammad to be a Prophet. The possibility can not, and ergo does not, exist. Most Christians would think Mohammad was either possessed by Satan or by some evil Demons. For Good Christians Muslims are being mislead and will burn in hell if they don't repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah and their Savior. The only route to heaven is through Jesus.

Strong Christians can not even entertain the idea that the possibility exists Mohammad was a Prophet. You should sympathize with their view Sam, as you think likewise and can not even fathom the concept there are more than one, separate and individual, Gods or that Bahá’u’lláh was more than a mere teacher and was a Prophet after Mohammad.


Islam and Christianity and Judaism are as three peas in a pod. One can hardly tell one from another. I expect each to continue killing the other for some time to come - as monotheists can not recognize that the possibility exists their idea about God is incorrect.


Wouldn't you agree?

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

- The Palestinians are shot at because they are Muslim. If they were Good Jews they would be welcomed into Jewish Isreal and not murdered.

- The Baha'i are persecuted because they are Baha'i. If they were Good Muslim they would have been welcomed by Muslims and not murdered.

- The polytheistic Arabs were persecuted because they were polytheistic. If they were Good Muslims they would be welcomed by Muslims and not murdered.

- Non-Christians living in medieval Christian Europe were murdered for not being Good Christians. For a good Christian is impossible that any other beleif system could be correct. The possibility does not exist. In exactly the same way you think it is impossible for there to be 5 separate individual Gods so do Christians think it is impossible for Mohammad to be a Prophet. The possibility can not, and ergo does not, exist. Most Christians would think Mohammad was either possessed by Satan or by some evil Demons. For Good Christians Muslims are being mislead and will burn in hell if they don't repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah and their Savior. The only route to heaven is through Jesus.

Strong Christians can not even entertain the idea that the possibility exists Mohammad was a Prophet. You should sympathize with their view Sam, as you think likewise and can not even fathom the concept there are more than one, separate and individual, Gods or that Bahá’u’lláh was more than a mere teacher and was a Prophet after Mohammad.


Islam and Christianity and Judaism are as three peas in a pod. One can hardly tell one from another. I expect each to continue killing the other for some time to come - as monotheists can not recognize that the possibility exists their idea about God is incorrect.


Wouldn't you agree?

Michael

I guess the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Chinese and Japanese (not to mention atheists in power in communist nations) have had warless histories

 

[Michael]

I guess the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Chinese and Japanese (not to mention atheists in power in communist nations) have had warless histories

The one does not preclude the other.