The Holy Quran

[NMSquirrel]

OMG have you ever been in a Church? It's filled wall to wall with idolatry. From decorated bible covers (usually the Priest has the most elegant) - even the script in the Bible is somewhat idolatrous. The windows, the walls, pews, all of it covered in forms of religious idolatry. Little crosses here and there, other small symbols, etc...

sounds more like a catholic church..

 

[Shadow1]

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It seems reasonable to assume Islam was a product of "Arab" (whatever that is) Christian mythologies prevalent from around Syria - from people who didn't believe in the Trinity concept (which was fairly common at the time). The Qur'an was written much much later and is as much a political manifesto as anything else. The earliest use of the word Mohammad was as a title for Jesus and can be found on early Syrian coins.

islam is not only for arabs or whatever, i wonder how did islam reached eastern asia and mangolia and etc... (knowing that mongolians are who conquered baghdad and won)

and in islam, all all prophets, we beleive in them, also jesus as a prophet, and all were calling for one thing, beleiving in god, and none but god.

 

[Shadow1]

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They don't Idol Worship I wonder why they do the peregrination every year to S.A.? just to walk around ( and to touch) a stone... they are so confused...
http://www.teachmideast.org/essays/35-religion/57-the-hajj

it's not idol worship :bugeye:

 

[Shadow1]

p.s.: many may think islam have a sign like christanity use the cross and jews use that 6 angles star, islam don't have any
there's this
i bare witness that there's no god but allah, and muhammad is he's prophet
and about the moon and star, show me where it is in quran...it's a geometrical art, for example in kairouan, on mosques, it's not a moon and a star, but three or 4 balls, each one is smaller than the next, anyway, many different shapes, ever heard, of, art?

 

[Shadow1]

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In the Muslim religion the Quran is place on the head of couple when
getting married and actually not only at wedding ocassions but when you are going on any long journey or going on some mission etc, this tradition is practiced by most of muslim families. Like if the Book have some protective power. That sounds like an idol to me...

first, hajj if you mean, it's not an idol worship, islam is against worship any but god, and, hajj is not because, somehow, long missions or getting married or whatever, LOL
i mean, what?
a person must do hajj once in he's life, and maximum three times, BUT, only if he could, if he had money to, if he had health to be able to do it, and etc... IF he was able to do it as i said.
in hajj, a person must never carry any kinds of weapon, and must not fight even by words, and must not kill any living creature, including plants, animals, even ants and etc...

We respect and study our bibles, we pray for our enemies and if somebody
burns a bible in Somalia, we pray for the poor Christians in Somalia and our enemies in Somalia we dont starts a world Rebellion about it.

what does that supose to mean?

 

[Michael]

islam is not only for arabs or whatever, i wonder how did islam reached eastern asia and mangolia and etc... (knowing that mongolians are who conquered baghdad and won)

and in islam, all all prophets, we beleive in them, also jesus as a prophet, and all were calling for one thing, beleiving in god, and none but god.

and Buddhism isn't just for Indians, and Christianity isn't just for GreecoRomans ANYONE can convert to Judaism - so what's your point?

Islam entered Asia and SE Asia through trade. Mainly trade with the wealthy Chinese Empire. Although, interestingly enough, the Chinese were unimpressed with Muslim use of interest on money.

If "Islam" is for everyone, then why are there no Shinto Temples in Islamic Nations? Why are there no Buddhist Temples in Islamic Nations? Where are all the Synagogues in KSA? "Islam is for everyone" - yeah, right.

Lastly, the question is how did the Qur'an come to be produced and when. It'd be good to have an answer they doesn't involve a magical flying broom or horsey.

 

[GeoffP]

first, hajj if you mean, it's not an idol worship

Idol worship or setting partners with God is the oldest Islamic insult against Christianity.

Stings, don't it?

what does that supose to mean?

It means that Christianity teaches pacifism in response to insult rather than combat. Application and interest varies by specific believer however.

 

[Shadow1]

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Idol worship or setting partners with God is the oldest Islamic insult against Christianity.

insult toward christanity?
on the contrary, if you are muslim, you have to respect the other relegions and ther other's choice

It means that Christianity teaches pacifism in response to insult rather than combat. Application and interest varies by specific believer however.

so do islam, it says, if the ignorants talked to you, or insulted, ignore them, or something like that
i think it's like that, and if the ignorants talked to you say "salama" means, peace
and also, if someone said an insult to you, ignore him, but also, you must let your self reach that line where people insult you

 

[Shadow1]

and Buddhism isn't just for Indians, and Christianity isn't just for GreecoRomans ANYONE can convert to Judaism - so what's your point?

what point? you pointed that islam is only for arabs or it's just an arabic thing

If "Islam" is for everyone, then why are there no Shinto Temples in Islamic Nations? Why are there no Buddhist Temples in Islamic Nations? Where are all the Synagogues in KSA? "Islam is for everyone" - yeah, right.

so you're talking about the non relegion tolerance? hmm, so, what about in tunisia, or other countries, maybe egypte?
there are synagogs and churches here
and, why KSA exactly you chose? ( if about the holy mecca, it's the muslims holy land, i think it's ok that it would be a church their, or anyother relegion that beleive in only one god, and none but god)
and ever thought about, that for example there are not many budhist if there is, to build a temple for them ?

yes, islam is for everyone

Lastly, the question is how did the Qur'an come to be produced and when. It'd be good to have an answer they doesn't involve a magical flying broom or horsey.

revelation from god
and i know what do you want to reach with that, you want to convince me or say that the holy quran was just a poet production or something
and quran was the same from 1400 years, and it's hardly orgenized, and coded if you want to say, like, a security code, if you change in it, you can find it by numbers

http://www.quranmiracles.org/19/19read.asp?id=8
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/fakir60/fakir60.htm


you have your relegion, and i have my relegion, i'm not worshiping what you are worshiping(or you're not worshiping any anyway, inless you worship only one god and none but god) and you're not worshiping what i am worshiping

 

[GeoffP]

insult toward christanity?
on the contrary, if you are muslim, you have to respect the other relegions and ther other's choice

So tell some of your coreligionists about this essential point. In the meantime: sucks to be on the other side, huh?

so do islam, it says, if the ignorants talked to you, or insulted, ignore them, or something like that

I believe this is an entirely possible message in Islam. I do have to ask it's source, however. And we can't forget that as written it also allows violence, conditional on defining what an "attack" is. The most reserved measurement would be physical attack alone; but this is not the way conservatives interpret it, and not merely radicals.

 

[Shadow1]

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So tell some of your coreligionists about this essential point. In the meantime: sucks to be on the other side, huh?

you mean a proove from the quran or the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) quotes?
here's some from many

“…There is no compulsion in religion…” (Quran 2:256)

"O mankind! We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know and honor each other (not that you should despise one another). Indeed the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most righteous." Chapter 49, Verse 13

Ø Mutual Verbal Religious Tolerance in the Qur’an




The Qur’an goes further than religious freedom, instructing Muslims to show tolerance and respect to other religions. The verse, “Do not revile those unto whom they pray beside God, lest they wrongfully revile God through ignorance” (6:108), directly forbids verbal religious intolerance, candidly pointing out the logical consequence of mutual animosity and hatred. Disagreement is sometimes unavoidable; however, petty name-calling is certainly something we can all maturely surmount.

source: http://english.islammessage.com/articledetails.aspx?articleId=649

Ø Freedom of Religion in the Qur’an



Religion with God is Islam. However, there is no compulsion in religion. Humankind is created free to choose good or evil. No person can reach into another’s heart, place faith therein, cleanse filth, or soften hardness. Individual choice is an integral facet of religious devotion, and the Qur’an acknowledge this in the verse, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256). Furthermore, the Qur’an draws firm limits toward entrenched thinking in relation to Non-Muslims. It states, “Had God willed, they had not been idolatrous. We have not set thee as a keeper over them, nor art thou responsible for them” (6:107). Here, the Qur’an instructs us to recognize Non-Muslims’ religious self-sovereignty and to leave them alone!



Freedom of religion is the cornerstone of religious tolerance; and it is clearly established in the Qur’an.

and here's a good documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0IaCK-7z5o&feature=related

I believe this is an entirely possible message in Islam. I do have to ask it's source, however. And we can't forget that as written it also allows violence, conditional on defining what an "attack" is. The most reserved measurement would be physical attack alone; but this is not the way conservatives interpret it, and not merely radicals.

yes, it allows violence, only in the condition, of self defence, if someone attacked you, what will you do? and you can only kill in self defence, in extreme cases, killing in self defence, is the last, the very last option that you would do.
violence in war: you must never kill or hitt a woman or a child or an elder, and you musnt kill or cut a tree or an animal for no reason


and in war and etc... anyway it's agoo article

Forgive and show indulgence to them!
(Qur’an, 2:109)
Among various prolific misconceptions concerning the religion of Islam, one cannot miss the oft-quoted “Kill them wherever you find them,” characterization of religious intolerance in the Qur’an. This bloodthirsty depiction of Islam is far, far from the truth. Yet, with so much media attention shone on “Muslim terrorists”, contradictory Islamic ideals of religious tolerance might be difficult for Western audiences to believe.
The best solution is to read the Qur’an. Verses granting permission to fight in war, when attacked, can then be read in context. Ideological mud slinging on the internet is rife with quotes like, “Kill them wherever you find them.” If that is the first phrase you read from the Qur’an, of course it sounds like a horrible, unholy book. Yet its beginning is this:“In the name of God, The Beneficent, The Merciful” (1:1).
In the following sections, I will attempt to express the Qur’anic attitude toward religious tolerance. To dispel myths surrounding “kill them wherever you find them”, I first address religious tolerance under conditions of war. Then, what is hopefully the usual state of affairs, part 2 presents a few points from the Qur’an promoting religious tolerance during periods of peace.
Part 1: Conditions of War
“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”
(Qur’an, 2:190)
Contrary to popular misconception, the Qur’anic verse stating, “Kill them wherever you encounter them” (2:191) does not categorically permit (let alone promote!) killing of Non-Muslims. Rather, this verse was revealed in relation to a specific stage of persecutory war against Muslims in the history of Islam; and its ordinance is obviously confined to warfare. The fourteen-hundred-year heritage of Islamic rule in Arabia and beyond testifies to religious tolerance exhorted by the Qur’an.
And why—if there is any explanation other than deliberate mischaracterization and slander—why can’t critics who use this verse read other general decrees that place strict limits on warfare? For instance, the verse just before it, which says, “But begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors” (2:190). Or the verses just after it, stating, “But if they desist, then lo! God is Forgiving, Merciful” (2:192).
Scenarios under which taking a life is permissible according to the Qur’an are extremely limited. The Qur’an permits between-group killing, or “collateral damage”, during warfare in hand-to-hand combat with male, combatant enemy soldiers. In domestic affairs, Islamic law permits execution by judicial sentence in cases of premeditated manslaughter [1]; a tooth for a tooth whether Muslim or Non-Muslim.
In Islam, it is never permissible to attack or kill non-combatant enemy citizens, children, elderly, or women. Non-Muslims not waging war against Muslims possess Islamic state’s protection of their right to life, according to the Qur’an. In fact, the Qur’an enjoins forgiveness, indulgence, tolerance, and kindness toward Non-Muslims.

Part 2: Conditions of Peace

“Help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty.”

(Qur’an, 5:2)

Far from simply not killing Non-Muslims, Islam promotes an ideal ethic of cooperative piety with Non-Muslims who are at peace with Muslim states. The Qur’an also discusses basic rights of Non-Muslims, such as the right to life, freedom of religion, and property. Furthermore, the Qur’an offers specific guidelines to promote religious tolerance.

Freedom of Religion in the Qur’an

Religion with God is Islam. However, there is no compulsion in religion. Humankind is created free to choose good or evil. No person can reach into another’s heart, place faith therein, cleanse filth, or soften hardness. Individual choice is an integral facet of religious devotion, and the Qur’an acknowledge this in the verse, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256). Furthermore, the Qur’an draws firm limits toward entrenched thinking in relation to Non-Muslims. It states, “Had God willed, they had not been idolatrous. We have not set thee as a keeper over them, nor art thou responsible for them” (6:107). Here, the Qur’an instructs us to recognize Non-Muslims’ religious self-sovereignty and to leave them alone!

Freedom of religion is the cornerstone of religious tolerance; and it is clearly established in the Qur’an.

Mutual Verbal Religious Tolerance in the Qur’an

The Qur’an goes further than religious freedom, instructing Muslims to show tolerance and respect to other religions. The verse, “Do not revile those unto whom they pray beside God, lest they wrongfully revile God through ignorance” (6:108), directly forbids verbal religious intolerance, candidly pointing out the logical consequence of mutual animosity and hatred. Disagreement is sometimes unavoidable; however, petty name-calling is certainly something we can all maturely surmount.

Kindness toward Non-Combatant, Non-Muslims in the Qur’an


As long as other religious groups do not invade and transgress Muslim lands and political sovereignty, Muslims should have no qualm with them. God commands the Muslims to show indulgence, tolerance, forgiveness, justice, and compassion toward Non-Muslim groups who do not take up arms fighting against Muslims. God says, “God does not forbid you to be kind to those who do not take arms against you. God loves those who are just” (60:8). Chapter 60, in which the aforementioned verse occurs, addresses Muslim unity against avowed political attackers. No Muslim should harbor alliances with transgressing forces. However, even in this chapter whose theme primarily addresses conditions of defensive war, the Qur’an does not neglect to mention that Muslims should show kindness and justice in lieu of violent aggression from other Non-Muslim nations or individuals.

Forgiveness toward Non-Muslims Harboring Animosity toward Muslims in the Qur’an

Peace and war are two extremes, between which are many shades of conflictive coexistence. The Qur’an does not only speak to extremes. Rather, it addresses latent conflict, jealously, rivalry, and hatred between groups. In all of these cases, as in the case of peace and cooperation, the Qur’an enjoins forgiveness, indulgence, justice, and compassion toward Non-Muslims. For example, the Qur’an mentions that some groups of Jews and Christians wish for ruination of Muslim nations. Toward them, the Qur’an instructs, “Forgive and show indulgence to them…Whosoever surrendereth his purpose to God while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve” (2:109-112).

Justice toward Previously Combatant Non-Muslims in the Qur’an

In another chapter, the Qur’an deals with situations where Muslims might feel hatred toward Non-Muslim groups. Again, the message is patience and justice. God says, “Do not allow your hatred of a folk who [once] stopped your going to the Inviolable Place of Worship [2] seduce you to transgress; but help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty. Help not one another unto sin and transgression, but keep your duty to God” (5:2). Warring nations confront a difficult psychological task when arms are finally laid aside for olive branches. What happens to the hearts that remember lost soldiers and former offenses? The Qur’anic reply is God-consciousness. By remembering God’s love for justice, we can avoid seductions of violence and vengefulness.

Applications by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

Religious tolerance in the Qur’an is not based on fantasy. Rather, it tackles real world scenarios of peace, conflict, war, and coexistence. We do not pretend that differing groups can live in perfect, unbroken harmony; not even homogenous groups enjoy so much mutuality. However, the Qur’an clearly states that cooperation is better than conflict, peace is preferable to war, and justice is necessary under all circumstances. Furthermore, the Qur’an offers specific guidelines to help encourage and maintain peaceful coexistence between differing religious groups. Principles of indulgence, patience, justice, and kindness are underscored in the Qur’an by rules such as the forbiddance of insulting other gods.

The Sunnah, traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), also contain numerous specific guidelines in cooperating and showing compassion to Non-Muslim groups, including the Jizya (specialized taxation of Non-Muslims) and its inherent rights safeguarding Non-Muslims living in Muslim states. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) pro-actively promoted peace, tolerance, and cooperation, not only through example in his personal life, but through the first known constitution in the history of civilization, protecting minority rights (i.e. the Declaration of Madinah). During eras of strong religious rule after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), his successors followed in his footsteps, ensuring a strict respect for the life, blood, and property of Non-Muslim citizens in the Islamic empire.

Large numbers of Non-Muslim minorities still reside peacefully in the Muslim world, such as the Copts of Egypt, the Jews of Yemen, and many others. These groups give the best proof of Islamic religious tolerance. Some prominent Jewish and Christian leaders have published contemporary accounts testifying to the respectful coexistence and religious tolerance they enjoy in Muslim states. Unfortunately, these accounts are too often brushed aside in favor of more sensational, paranoia-provoking statements, like “Kill them wherever you find them.”

this is an article i found it in english, hope it says things
i hope that that gave an answer


and as you see, till now, two muslim arab countries, kicked their dicators, peacefully, the goverments are who made the violence

 

[GeoffP]

you mean a proove from the quran or the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) quotes?
here's some from many

“…There is no compulsion in religion…”

"for the right way is free of compulsion. [Quran 2:256]"

Any reason you left off the last part of that cite? Is it the same reason Islamic reactionaries leave it off; to avoid mentioning the implicit if cynical conclusion that can be drawn from it: that force isn't force, since no one could logically be forced to believe the truth.

found this good article in english

And it is a bad article. In the conditions of peace, it doesn't mention Quran 9:29 at all, and it doesn't have - as it cannot have - any final point on what "defence" constitutes. Is it an attack if I attack you? Of course. How about if I start an anti-Islamist (not "anti-Islamic") party? How about if I object to occupation and colonization? If I call for a settlement freeze, is that attack? How about if I insult Mohammed? Some Islamic countries do indeed consider that an attack. Societal inertia or self-interested cynicism, it still amounts to the same thing.

 

[Shadow1]

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"for the right way is free of compulsion. [Quran 2:256]"

Any reason you left off the last part of that cite? Is it the same reason Islamic reactionaries leave it off; to avoid mentioning the implicit if cynical conclusion that can be drawn from it: that force isn't force, since no one could logically be forced to believe the truth.

yeah i edited my post manytimes, read it again now.

and there's no reason i left that "part" or whatever
and in islam, you musnt force someone to enter that beleif, because you know he will never do if you force him to, and on the contrary, he will hate it
and beleiving is by heart not by looks so you can force him to pertend to be muslim or whatever

And it is a bad article. In the conditions of peace, it doesn't mention Quran 9:29 at all, and it doesn't have - as it cannot have - any final point on what "defence" constitutes. Is it an attack if I attack you? Of course. How about if I start an anti-Islamist (not "anti-Islamic") party? How about if I object to occupation and colonization? If I call for a settlement freeze, is that attack? How about if I insult Mohammed? Some Islamic countries do indeed consider that an attack. Societal inertia or self-interested cynicism, it still amounts to the same thing.

first, it's your duty to respect my beleifs as i do respect yours, occupation and colonization, i think that is called attacking no? so, you say, you attack my country, and i stay doing nothing, and say welcome welcome, like those arab gulf countries leaders (i mean, the pets of israel and usa) ?
call to settlment freeze: that mean you already attacked that country
make an anti-islam party (that means, against the relegious freedom, even an anti-jews party i will not accept it, you saw what happened when the french ambassador wanted to make a problem of different relegions in tunisia, see this thread http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=106540): yes, you attacked my beleif, but that doesnt mean to attack you physicly the way you attack me in, is the way i would defend myself in, i will try to discuss you, and discuss you, and if it is useless, as it says, if the ignorants talked to you, say peace.

 

[GeoffP]

yeah i edited my post manytimes, read it again now.

It still doesn't have the full quote of Q2: 256.

and there's no reason i left that "part" or whatever
and in islam, you musnt force someone to enter that beleif, because you know he will never do if you force him to, and on the contrary, he will hate it
and beleiving is by heart not by looks so you can force him to pertend to be muslim or whatever

So why is conversion one of the acceptable penalties for insulting Islam? I appreciate your firm devotion to non-violence; but you must accept at the same time that conservative Islam doesn't follow the same line, and that it is not exactly uncommon.

 

[Shadow1]

So why is conversion one of the acceptable penalties for insulting Islam? I appreciate your firm devotion to non-violence; but you must accept at the same time that conservative Islam doesn't follow the same line, and that it is not exactly uncommon.

conservative islam? i am conservative for your information, and we are conservative here according to your standars
but if you mean, the so called "islam" that are fanatic yes i know what you mean, and to make you undertsand more, it's all related to politics, and infact, i saw how in my country, they tryed to make the islamists party like if they are who maked a protestations saying hate speach infront of synagog or killing a priest, and bulldozing a mosque as if jews did it, as i said, go to that link i gave you it's all their, now i realised, it IS all politics, they must make the people fear the islamists, and they must make islamists fanatism, to make the west think like if without them, the arab world will be a ground for terrorism and fanatism, i tell you,n it's all bullshits, and the so called "islam" that you mean, have nothing to do with islam, so gadafi is muslim, and the other arab dictators, are muslims, well, muslims just because they are born muslims, but they are hypocrites, anyway, does it mean that it is islam that tell them that?

 

[GeoffP]

conservative islam? i am conservative for your information, and we are conservative here according to your standars

Are you? Death penalty for apostates, reduced human rights for women and non-Muslims, and so forth?

but if you mean, the so called "islam" that are fanatic yes i know what you mean, and to make you undertsand more, it's all related to politics, and infact, i saw how in my country, they tryed to make the islamists party like if they are who maked a protestations saying hate speach infront of synagog or killing a priest, and bulldozing a mosque as if jews did it, as i said, go to that link i gave you it's all their, now i realised, it IS all politics, they must make the people fear the islamists, and they must make islamists fanatism, to make the west think like if without them, the arab world will be a ground for terrorism and fanatism, i tell you,n it's all bullshits, and the so called "islam" that you mean, have nothing to do with islam, so gadafi is muslim, and the other arab dictators, are muslims, well, muslims just because they are born muslims, but they are hypocrites, anyway, does it mean that it is islam that tell them that?

Well, it does and doesn't have something to do with Islam: it's not for nothing it occurs in so many Islamic countries, from thousands of years ago until today. Comprehensive reformation is needed, but in order to accomplish this it's important for all Muslims to realize that their religion does contain enough scriptural leeway for this to happen. If you consider them hypocrites: well and good. This is encouraging. But it doesn't eliminate what they are, or where they draw their perspectives from. In short: reform.

 

[Yosef]

Reported for preaching.

What is bad about preaching ?!

If it is going to increase God's love to him (and his love to God), and possibly save some people of the fire.

It is the truth. God does exist. More evident for me than ever. You know who is making this declaration.

I am talking to all.. best wishes

 

[Dywyddyr]

What is bad about preaching ?!

It's against forum policy.

If it is going to increase God's love to him (and his love to God), and possibly save some people of the fire.

Hmm. IF. It's a big word - covers the possibility he's just flapping his lips for the sake of it, too.
Fire?
Preaching saves you from fires? Damn. Maybe fire-fighters should go on oratory courses.

It is the truth.

No.

God does exist.

Supposition.

More evident for me than ever.

That's the problem. It's evident to you. Not to me and numerous others.

You know who is making this declaration.

You.
(Did I get that right?)

 

[Michael]

what point? you pointed that islam is only for arabs or it's just an arabic thing

No, you made that up in your head.

so you're talking about the non relegion tolerance? hmm, so, what about in tunisia, or other countries, maybe egypte?
there are synagogs and churches here
and, why KSA exactly you chose? ( if about the holy mecca, it's the muslims holy land, i think it's ok that it would be a church their, or anyother relegion that beleive in only one god, and none but god)
and ever thought about, that for example there are not many budhist if there is, to build a temple for them ?

yes, islam is for everyone

Islam is extremely intolerant of most other people's cultures and is not for everyone - it's only for Muslims.

Buddhist Temples in Japan provide Shinto Shrines to the local deity.
Shinto Shrines provide Buddhist priests with places to meditate and pray.

Muslims on the other hand had a made-up "glorious" history whereby some crank called Mohammad instructed a bunch of thugs to destroy Arab polytheist temples. Sadly, Muslims don't see this as horribly but as wonderful. How pathetic. You know, just like the Muslims who destroyed those 2500 year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. You do know that to many Buddhist those were the equivalent of Mecca to Muslims. Of course, Muslims don't give two shits about those statues and were probably happy to see them destroyed. So, no, Islam is definitely NOT for everyone. It's ONLY for Muslims.

revelation from god
and i know what do you want to reach with that, you want to convince me or say that the holy quran was just a poet production or something
and quran was the same from 1400 years, and it's hardly orgenized, and coded if you want to say, like, a security code, if you change in it, you can find it by numbers

http://www.quranmiracles.org/19/19read.asp?id=8
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/fakir60/fakir60.htm

I said no Harry Potter.
I asked for peer-reviewed and you post "quranmicacles.org" propaganda?

 

[-ND-]

Are those who know, to be considered equal to those who do not know? Only prudent men reflect [on this]-Quran.

I think not and I have reflected on it.

Chi, why do you waste your time on them?