Students to be taught there isn't a God

S.A.M. said:
Yeah I don't understand what the issue is either. We had one moral science class a week. We did some religious history in history. It was no big deal.
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These fanatical atheists are trying to impose their will on everyone, they are calling people on to their path and condemning all non-believers into the eternal wilderness. Sounds a lot like ‘religion’ to me… :eek:
 
Curiously, what gets me is that all these evidence oriented people ignore the very valid evidence that evolution selects against atheism as a viable system for humans.
 
S.A.M. said:
Just look at history at the great civilisations on earth. How many atheist? Zero, null, nada, none.
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Just look at how many great civilizations on Earth established a colony on Mars. How many were religious? Zero, null, nada, none.

You are ignoring the fact that widespread secularism is younger than the ages of nation-building. Even with this going against it, the United States was founded by skeptics.
 
When you study a civilisation, you essentially study its religion. Remove the religion from the equation and what do you have left? Nothing really. The root of culture is cult.
 
Medicine*Woman said:
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M*W: Religions are competitive by their very design. Atheism doesn't share that albatross.
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It might be more accurate to say that monotheistic religions are competitive by their very design.

Polytheistic cultures tend to less-aggressively adapt their pantheon to those of neighbors, traders, and conquerors. When you already have hundreds of gods, adding a few more or combining the traits of new ones into your old, is not a threat to the structure.

Monotheism is inherently violent. It promotes reactionary wrath to any other claim of a higher being (including science, or a claim for lack of a being).

The militant on this forum are almost always the monotheists or the cultish pseudo-scientists who have replaced god with the scientific method because they didn't take the time to rid themselves of superstition.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah I don't understand what the issue is either. We had one moral science class a week. We did some religious history in history. It was no big deal.
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It isn't a big deal at all. Now students and parents can allow their children to learn about religion and atheism as well.. you know, give the kids a sound basis to make up their own minds. And it is completely voluntary. I guess this became a bit of a big deal when a certain someone started saying that even learning about atheism would result in an increase in suicide.:)

Ghost_007 said:
These fanatical atheists are trying to impose their will on everyone, they are calling people on to their path and condemning all non-believers into the eternal wilderness. Sounds a lot like ‘religion’ to me…
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How is it an imposition if the classes are voluntary?

As far as I am concerned, you could religiously believe that the sun shone out of your arse and worshiped said arse on a daily basis. It really would be none of my business. Why? Because religion and belief to me is a personal thing in one's life. And frankly, if kids in schools are being given the choice to learn about religion and atheism and they want to study one or both or none, it really is their choice and up to their parents.

You were right. It really is no big deal. Which begs the question why you had gone on a whole spiel about the loss of community and family in society because a school is daring to give its students the option to learn about humanism and/or atheism. So much so that a whole thread was started about it. I guess it is less of a big deal to atheists that students can learn about religion and atheism if they so choose than it is to you, eh Ghost?
 
Bells said:
It isn't a big deal at all. Now students and parents can allow their children to learn about religion and atheism as well.. you know, give the kids a sound basis to make up their own minds. And it is completely voluntary. I guess this became a bit of a big deal when a certain someone started saying that even learning about atheism would result in an increase in suicide.:)
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Thats what the evidence says, not I. Or do we only believe in such kind of evidence when it is about theists?

You did read the OP, right? Did you note how misrepresenting the topic in the title and OP was never a big enough deal to lead to accusations of manipulation or manufactured contrivance?
 
What? When the OP stated that it's good that students get to hear all sides? Is that bad for some reason? Or did you mean the article itself which stated that students could volunteer for such classes? Is that bad if children hear about all religion and about atheism as well? Or should we keep them sheltered in religious beliefs and deny them the right to learn about anything else?

You brought up suicide in a manner which suggested atheists are more likely to kill themselves. How it was relevant, I don't know to be honest. I guess you seem to think that even learning about atheism or that some people don't believe in God could lead to suicide.

If you bring up a study that says atheism is a direct cause of suicide, then you might have a case. But we both know that suicide is the result of a vast array of things and is not caused by atheism. At least I know that. Do you? Or do you hold the view that teenagers one day wake up and think "oh no.. I don't believe in God! I must kill myself now"? But I guess that is a subject for yet another topic that was spawned out of this thread.
 
i doubt that has anything to do with it. suicide is due to mental illness and sometimes it is better to hide or sometimes, perhaps, it is less detectable. whereas being ill in thos way would be overlooked or undiagnosed.
 
I think there is a relationship between atheism and suicide. For various reasons, which are discussed in my Camus thread ages ago.

But I was talking about the there isn't a God vs there is no evidence for God disconnect. Such nitpicking only seems mandatory for theists.
 
S.A.M. said:
I think there is a relationship between atheism and suicide.
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Just as there is a direct relationship between child abuse and child/teenage suicide? Or are you saying that atheism plays as much a part on the reason or lead up to a child's suicide, as say, sexual/physical/emotional abuse of a child is a lead up to a child killing themselves? How strong is the relationship?
 
I think a child brought up athiest is more likely to choose suicide as a viable option to problem resolution. The ideation has no wrongdoing attached to it.

Something like this would never happen in a religious society

In Japan, the internet has been blamed for a spate of group suicides which appear to have been arranged in online chat rooms.

Andrew Harding talked to one young man searching for someone to die with.

Naoki Tachiwana opened his apartment door with a surprisingly warm smile, and beckoned us in to a neat living room. His computer was switched on - the screen facing out towards Naoki's eleventh floor balcony, and the night sky above Tokyo's eastern suburbs.

"Last night I was up all night," said Naoki, smiling again, "talking online to this woman who really - I mean really - wants to die. She asked me to do it with her today, but I said I couldn't because I had this television crew coming to see me. So she said we can do it after they've gone."

It had taken days of online research, emails and text messages to bring us here - face to face with a member of Japan's "internet suicide" community.

It is a growing, and morbidly frank underworld of chat rooms and websites with names like "Suicide Club," where thousands of (mainly young) people meet and talk and plan their deaths.

At least 26 people have died in this manner in the past two months.

"There's nothing bad about suicide," said Wataru Tsurumi, author of a graphic, and best-selling handbook on the subject. "We have no religion or laws here in Japan telling us otherwise. As for group suicides - before the internet people would write letters, or make phone calls... it's always been part of our culture."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4071805.stm
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S.A.M. said:
I think a child brought up athiest is more likely to choose suicide as a viable option to problem resolution. The ideation has no wrongdoing attached to it.

Something like this would never happen in a religious society
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You're right. In a religious society the religious leaders convince the followers and believers to kill themselves in mass suicides. So much better. Nothing says togetherness, love and belief in the almighty God than drinking poison and feeding poison to one's kids to go and meet one's maker together. I guess that could be construed as a family and friend's gathering that Ghost was harping on about being lacking in atheist families..:rolleyes:

But you're right. In religious societies you have the potential Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, Order of the Solar Temple, Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, etc..
 
Its a trend across societies Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Europe and even in the US. So ignoring it is not going to make it go away. Its something that will have to be tackled, at any rate.
 
S.A.M. said:
I think a child brought up athiest is more likely to choose suicide as a viable option to problem resolution. The ideation has no wrongdoing attached to it.

Something like this would never happen in a religious society
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Your quote is misleading. It says that Japan has no religion that opposes suicide, not that Japan has no religion. Your false assumption is that all religions oppose suicide, and they don't. Even Islam has led to suicide bombers with a religious motivation.
 
Ghost_007 said:
These fanatical atheists are trying to impose their will on everyone, they are calling people on to their path and condemning all non-believers into the eternal wilderness. Sounds a lot like ‘religion’ to me… :eek:
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M*W: What do you consider a "fanatical atheist?" The reason I ask is not only for your opinion but to qualify the general consensus on why theists believe atheists are fanatical?

My point is that atheists don't have a church to go to, and we don't have dogma except for the one common disbelief in deities and the supernatural.

There is no way I could say to you or to anyone else, "come, follow me and you will be saved." For an atheist, that is ridiculous.

Atheists are not lawmakers, so we do not force anyone to do anything against their will. However, we have a voice, just as you do, to inform our legislators what we believe to be the truth and how those truths would be good for society. Should they enact laws that are in favor of the atheistic viewpoint, it is because your beliefs are not keeping up with the times nor with human needs.

I had a strange experience recently at a bookstore. Something I actually never do is read about atheism. I read mostly about christianity. So I decided to broaden my view on atheism, and I selected several books from the philosophy section on atheism to read. A young black woman came and sat down next to me. I noticed after a while that she was staring and scowling at me. She sat there for a while doing this. I got to thinking that this was some kind of unspoken message she was communicating to me, so I observed without any response on my part. I just kept reading and watching inconspicuously. She was reading romance novels BTW. I noticed that she was getting steamed, but not in a romantic way. I looked up and broadly smiled at her. It freaked her out so much that she threw three romance novels at me and knocked over my coffee. Then she literally bolted from her chair and walked as fast as she could to get out of the store! Now, tell me, how did I in any way force my belief on this woman?
 
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