Even if a person is promoting "you can be your own religious authority" it still establishes them as a person whose advice on religious matters is valid.
Kind of like persons who write several books about how one doesn't need a guru.
Stuck (primarily for theists)
- Thread starter wynn
- Start date
Even if a person is promoting "you can be your own religious authority" it still establishes them as a person whose advice on religious matters is valid.
Kind of like persons who write several books about how one doesn't need a guru.
Actually...I'm only speaking from personal experience...and everyone's advice has the potential to be as useful as anyone else's.
Spiritual training may help with this.
But consider the opposite message, amplified for comedic effect:
"You follow these teachings or you're going to God's eternal barbecue pit and making like a brisket, bucko!"
The test of validity is in the view of the reader...:shrug:
Since Signal isn't getting it, apparently I'm not providing him with the message he needs at this particular moment to get him past the stuck place.
Can you find any instance where I called you a kannistha?
If your discernment is a flat zero, why cite a thread that is primarily identifying individuals on (at least) the madhyama side of uttama?
i'm going to add to this question just for fun...
to signal or anyone,
have you ever tried to look at yourself through someone else's eyes? some objective person who doesn't know all your baggage and what makes up your perception, and therefore couldn't possibly understand why you behave the way you do? it's fun but difficult. i was forced into it once when some guy i was dating wouldn't see me, not even to tell me why. i watched the sun come up several mornings, mind ticking. so if you think about the concept of god, and if god made itself known to you in a very personal way, can you imagine the affect that would have on you? you could try to.
the thing is, god makes himself known to you in such a personal way, that there's no doubt that god knows your baggage, and everything else about you, like your future. don't think that doesn't blow your mind. he knows things about you that you don't even know. and he sees you the way you REALLY are, and he still loves you, no matter what. that interaction and realization enables you, to see you, the way you REALLY are. and it's your challenge to be ok with that. it's not easy, but it's absolutely worth it. you'll come out of it empowered, and you won't be afraid.
I think you mean cog.
It's not always a ship.
Thanks my serendipitous fellow S.F. person . I think I did mean cog , but I like the clog thing of throwing a wrench in the machine just as well . Change by rebellion is not so bad and rebellion can take on other forms than violent protest . Hippies , flower children , flipped things upside down pretty good . This science forum reminds me of the communal thinking of the Hippies in a way . Lots of people voicing opinions and all, the outlet for thought is great .
Course Mikey's row boats , so now I got to go see what kind you are talking about
sure
hence offering potentially is what places one in the position of (attempted) spiritual authority
Surely you can see the way you are contextualizing the message (putting aside the soundness of the message for just a moment)
the test of authority is in the mind of the speaker (although how many persons consider it valid and for what reasons is another question ...)
If someone is offering a context for the comprehension (or even rejection) of spiritual texts, they are operating out of an authority (or at least an ideological continuum, since our ideas tends to be the consequence of a long history of thesis and antithesis documented through social discourse)
Whether an individual considers one valid or invalid in no way takes away from the act of another's attempt to contextualize spiritual teachings
Do not lead, for I may not follow.
Do not follow, for I may not lead.
Do not walk beside me either.
In fact, just get away from me
-Jack Handey
I mean, seriously, I don't feel comfortable being an authority over anybody. Really. That makes me responsible.
Jeebus, it's hard enough to be responsible for myself right now!!!!:splat:
I was thinking of it more like midwifing, popping someone's spine so that their back isn't jammed, or stretching another's leg to get a really nasty cramp out.
I don't think in hierarchy, because I don't consider hierarchy truly valid.
If I can help I can help. I generally enjoy helping, so I generally do...or at least make the attempt...since I'm not perfect it doesn't always work.
Helping is not pulling rank.
Personally, I never fully believe that anyone won't harm me just because they can, and I triply believe this of authority figures.
Therefore most religions just weren't going to work, at least not going to a church/mosque/temple
You're intellectual. You're thinking about it.
I'd definitely define myself as a mystic...and a solitary Pagan, and I have a hard time socializing(why I like the internet, the people in the box are not a threat)...and so, some of it's from books, but most of my spiritual practice comes from something that is entirely without words.
Even for a Pagan I'm weird...I make up every magickal working on the fly.
I play pick and mix with deities. I have a bad habit of not getting off my butt for even the major sabbats. I have blessed lighter fluid when I couldn't get a sacred fire started.
So...um...If Signal needs an intellectualized answer here, then I'm pretty useless.
If he needs a mystic's view on things...maybe I can help. But maybe not. Not so far anyway.
Why are you whacking me with your godstick anyway?
Last edited:
You are the one promoting KC, and its resources. So anything that is said there, is as if you said it.
NoI5 describes the levels of devotees. I don't live up to even a kanistha.
I don't understand what you mean by that?
Anyone can read and cite various materials.
And yet the moment one steps into a situation, even as a helper, one presumes such authority.
With it comes the responsibility.
If you think that helping isn't steeped in issues of interpersonal politics (and thus issues of pulling rank) ...
Sometimes, there is more of this, other times less, but it is there, and it is how it works.
The person who is being helped would have to be without any sense of indebtedness if they were to avoid issues of interpersonal politics in the process of helping.
I am surprised you say that. If you are so sure of your spiritual path, then why does other people's spirituality bother you?
I don't think it is impossible to receive an answer from a "regular" church etc.
But as it is, this path requires more faith, more submission, more resources and more discernment than I currently have.
"Regular" sources cannot be written off simply because so far, one has not obtained from them what one is looking for.
Sure. But if by this you mean to suggest to indulge in such "speechless awe" - that doesn't work on me.
The usual relaxation techniques, Louise Hay spirituality and such have just the opposite effect on me as desired.
Okay, Lori. I have the choice to either follow you unequestioningly as my guru, or to avoid you like the plague.
With people who profess to know God (such as those who say things like "but that is the language god speaks"), there is no middle way and no friendship.
then that's you identifying as a kannistha ... and even then, nothing in the purport or related material about how being a kannistha banishes one from any issue of spiritual discrimination
if the content is thoroughly unintelligible for you, why cite it as reference material?
you can't hold such a view and publicly contextualize ideas at the same time
"helping" has contingent issues of responsibility ... otherwise it can quickly become "harming"
I am discussing how we arrive at our current world views, whatever they are.
books and the internet hardly exist in a vacuum
I don't know why you feel you are being whacked, much less why it is a god stick in particular.
Anyone who places ideas in a context is doing two things :
- operating out of a social continuum (IOW their ideas are a consequence of the ideas that have come before them)
- Establishing an authority/benchmark/standard for rendering texts meaningful (regardless whether hardly anyone or absolutely everyone considers the standard valid).
simply saying "I am my own authority" or "there are no authorities", far from placing one outside of such a system, conforms to it.
Last edited:
I never said I was as much as a kanistha.
But I certainly do not live up to the criteria for a kanistha. That is obvious enough (I have not received hari-nama initation, am not interested in worshiping deities at the temple etc.).
It is said that a kanistha is someone "who does not know how to behave toward devotees or people in general." So if even a kanistha does not know that, then what about people like me who are not even on kanistha level?
How are we, the run-of-the-mill people supposed to have any spiritual discernment??
What you are stating there are merely truisms to me.
I do not know how they apply to actual people and situations.
Which is practically the same as if I would not (grammatically, theoretically, intellectually) understand what you are saying there.
alright, let's see if I can figure out why it bothers me...I guess it's a matter of tone, not his beliefs. It's like, rather than accepting the validity of my beliefs, he puts them down and instead advances his own?
I often feel my path is discounted because it's highly personal, idiosyncratic, inconsistent, and not stamped with any external approval.
Not so much that I question its' validity...but that most others do.
Sorry.
I was made fun of for admitting I was a Buddhist in high school...First they laughed at me, then told me I was going to hell...and they were happy about it, too.
Aaand that whoosh was my sense of humor going right over your head...I mean Jack Handey? a Saturday Night Live character? Dude...
Guess what? Every action has issues of responsibility...there's a whole lot that radiates outward from your choice to suck oxygen everyday alone.
I do my very best not to run around harming people...I'm very guilt-driven...so harm is something that would really haunt me for a long time.
I don't feel better than someone else if something I say helps them or something I do helps them. Nor do I feel that they ought to be indebted...that bothers me too..it's like,"Don't you understand it just made me really happy to do that for you?"
How it makes me feel? Useful. Needed. I like feeling useful and needed. It makes me think I have value, something I have constant trouble believing.
Too, I want to create the sort of world where people get help because they need help through my actions...as I can, considering I'm one person.
Because sometimes you just need help regardless of your ability to reciprocate.
*closes eyes*..Because I once needed help...and I had to sell my soul for it.(Not literally LG, but both metaphorically and pretty close).
So I don't sit idly by if someone asks me for help, unless they're just being a sponge.
I also know from personal experience that you only take that advice which you're ready, willing, and able to take. I will tell Signal or anyone else what I think might help...but the agency is still their very own, as I can't take their actions for them.
Besides that, I'm telling Signal that he has to find his own answers...which would include not accepting myself as an authority, I'd say...
You view spirituality as thoughts and concepts more, I'm guessing. I view it as something you do.
When I run I visualize first drawing the energy of the earth through me and out the top of my head, then the energy of the sky in the opposite direction.
I can also do it standing still, of course...and managing to do it long enough without getting distracted will make me high. Put me into a state of ecstasy.
But it does not sound like Signal can use anything I'm giving him anyway.
He's a thinker, not a feeler, I gather.
So I will leave him to figure out what's obviously going to be a very different path than mine, and wish him luck.
that's horrible, and that's the way YOU make it. it's a problem (the topic of this thread), and it's one that you're apparently not willing to solve, so why keep complaining about it?
BE HONEST
you don't want to know god. you don't want a damn thing to do with god. this is an exercise in ego for you, and for whomever is wicked enough to feed and enable your codependency, and to lie to you.
and might i add that while some others are blowing sunshine up your butt about your path, your path is a circle.
Last edited:
observations of you, and my qualified opinion.
Signal, would you mind explaining that in more detail?
Second...I've asked you what makes you feel awe, and you indicated you do not. So I have a question...when you think about God, what feelings does this thought bring up for you?
Third question...what is the emotional driving force behind your spiritual quest? is there one?
See, I find myself frustrated because I'm not currently able to offer you something you find useful.
I gather I'm not understanding the problem correctly,
Last edited:
It's quite simple: if someone professes to know god so well (but can't actually show that they do) then one is left with the choice of either taking them at their word, and subsequently following that word (after all, they are privy to god) or you decide that they're talking bullshit and stay away from them (as far as advice/ learning goes).
Hmm, I wonder which option I'd go for if I ever came across such a person.