Stuck (primarily for theists)

[Lori_7]

Looking within, one runs into the danger of solipsism - solipsism is short of insanity.

Looking without, one runs into the danger of being swallowed by interpersonal politics.


So where should one look?

i'm pretty sure that your horrible religious experience was a christian one. did you pay attention to anything the bible said during that time? or were you too distracted by your desire to please others? or perhaps a desire for an easier answer than the one presented in the bible? who are you really trying to serve? yourself? your own need for approval? other people? their need to judge, condemn, and control? all of those needs firmly grounded in ego.

immanuel means god with us. not only by our side, but on our side as well. can you not stop and appreciate a flower without someone else around to validate your appreciation? can you not look at it and say "this is beautiful"? can you not smell it and say "this smells good"? without having to run to find some other human to tell you whether you're right about that or not? is that really insane, to think that you could appreciate something all on your own?

the way i see it, your problem is that you have no faith in god or in yourself.

 

[keith1]

...How can a person inquire about God, without falling into the machinations of interpersonal politics?

Science?

 

[Ophiolite]

How can a person inquire about God, without falling into the machinations of interpersonal politics?

Acquire balls.

 

[lightgigantic]

This is to LG -




If one were to take the approach as sketched out above
then one would also have to categorically avoid anything connected to your tradition, namely GV.
One would have to purge out of one's system all the premises that can be traced to GV.

Its (at best) jnana
It (at best) doesn't serve a purpose beyond impersonalism

 

[wynn]

where?

I am not even a kanistha, as far as I know what you think of me.
And a kanistha cannot properly discern the spiritual attaiments of others, what to speak of the discerning abilities of someone like me.

 

[wynn]

it all comes down to whether you're being led by the spirit or by men who tell you what to do. which one are you seeking, because you can't serve both. the spirit doesn't tell you what to do as men do. the spirit changes you from the inside out, through interaction. that's what i call spiritual experience. it leads you to repentence, not out of fear, not of approval seeking, but out of understanding through experience. therefore, you can not rely on others to give you this understanding. you can't really know something without experiencing it. you can know about it, but it doesn't even seem like you're paying attention to that.

can you remember jesus ever having anything good to say about the religious people of his time? ever patting the on the back and saying, "you're doing a great job?" no. never. all he ever did was criticize and correct them. when he said to them, "you are the teachers, and you don't know this?", i think this was probably his expression...

and that conversation (with nicodemus) was about the EXACT SAME THING i and others are trying to explain to you right now.

you know how, according to the bible, the spirit is supposed to accomplish a work in you. in my experience that work had much to do with the annihilation of my fear and ego. you can't repent if you're afraid of what other people will think of you, and you can't repent if you're ego is in the way. it seems like you're so afraid of being wrong that you're paralyzed. and the first thing god's going to show you, and continue to show you, is how wrong you are all the time, and you will have to learn to be ok with that, and you will when you realize that god loves you anyway, and you'll learn to love yourself anyway, and you'll learn to love others anyway, and it will change you and your life.

How is this in line with what LG said here - http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=57085 -?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Lightgigantic, how can I know you are God's "dog" - and not someone else's?
All I "know about God", I know from you and people like you. How can I have any peace that I am not operating simply in a bubble of circular logic which will sooner or later burst and reveal there was nothing to it?

There is something to it and it is all about a personal relationship with the creator . Time alone with you and nature will guide you . You first have to wake up from the dream and understand the surreal aspect of creation . Listen to the birds chirp . Listen to your surroundings . The whole of it all is trying like hell to tell you something . I know it is hard to hear and confusion from the enormity of bombardment of events unfolding. There is an order to the chaos . Open your ears , wipe the sleet out of your eyes, embrace the natural you and you to will find your spot as a clog in the machine. Being the you, you were meant to be

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

How is this in line with what LG said here - http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=57085 -?

It is kind of long winded for eat shit. Got to fill out a form first and then wait in a line. You want to go to heaven ? You have to do the work to bring about heaven . Send out the laborers. Who da laborers? We are the laborers . Well not Me ? Graduation has come and gone , Summers here and the parties on . I am a Carpenter now , actually I was . Now Me been raised to Chief Musician.

Pow Wow smoke some Chief. The word for you to contemplate LISTEN

 

[Lori_7]

It is kind of long winded for eat shit. Got to fill out a form first and then wait in a line. You want to go to heaven ? You have to do the work to bring about heaven . Send out the laborers. Who da laborers? We are the laborers . Well not Me ? Graduation has come and gone , Summers here and the parties on . I am a Carpenter now , actually I was . Now Me been raised to Chief Musician.

Pow Wow smoke some Chief. The word for you to contemplate LISTEN

do you realize how cryptic you are? lol...

 

[wynn]

i'm pretty sure that your horrible religious experience was a christian one.

No. I used to think that my experiences with Christians were horrible. Until I saw, in another religion, that things can get a lot worse.

the way i see it, your problem is that you have no faith in god or in yourself.

Riiight. So I should grit my teeth and "have faith"?

 

[Dywyddyr]

do you realize how cryptic you are? lol...

Your spelling is slightly off.
It's correctly spelt incoherent.

 

[wynn]

Open your ears , wipe the sleet out of your eyes, embrace the natural you and you to will find your spot as a clog in the machine. Being the you, you were meant to be

Oh well. Funny that, novel, too.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

do you realize how cryptic you are? lol...

What does that mean Mommy. I don't quite get it " Cryptic ? That is the same thing the people said on the maranatha site just before they banned me . Perma banned . I don't understand people that cry "Come Lord " and then they throw away the seed just before planting . The soil must not have been fertile enough. Wonder what they are going to do when Mikey takes up the sickle at harvest time and starts whacking off heads of the wheat. I suppose they will watch them roll like rocks down a cliff and say look at those rolling heads.

One thing about Mikeys is we eat anything . Shit is not that flavorlable . Salt goes a long ways to making it palatable. Sugar and spice almost makes every thing nice . Dogs eat cat shit and it tastes good to dogs , the other shit was like taking bad bad medicine and I still can't get the bad taste out of my mouth

 

[Dywyddyr]

Open your ears , wipe the sleet out of your eyes, embrace the natural you and you to will find your spot as a clog in the machine. Being the you, you were meant to be

Oh well. Funny that, novel, too.

Not as novel as all that.
Clog = wooden shoe, known in France as a sabot.
These were deliberately thrown into machines (mill wheels specifically, IIRC) to cause them to break down.
(Ringing any bells yet?).
Hence the word saboteur.

A serendipitous slip on Me-Ki-Gal's part, not only amusing (at the superficial level), but also historically and etymologically correct. Plus, it's a viable philosophy: push the machinery to failure - test its limits, force improvements.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Your spelling is slightly off.
It's correctly spelt incoherent.

What are you doing here? Didn't you read primarily for theist ? You are like a white man in an all black church . There is a root theme in my rhetoric and no I don't mean my god delusion either all though that does manifest. It is all about dignity for the common person . You too!! except I like to think of you as being more than common good or bad.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What are you doing here?

I'm everywhere.

Didn't you read primarily for theist?

Yep. I also know what primarily means. Plus, of course, I'm trying to contribute: see post #27.

You are like a white man in an all black church.

Got it. I should accept your rules because, er.... give me a clue here.

There is a root theme in my rhetoric

Quite possibly. But the expression of that theme is somewhat lacking.

You too!! except I like to think of you as being more than common good or bad.

I'm not common anything.

 

[chimpkin]

Ok...
We're being cryptic (I believe) because of the nature of spiritual experience?

But basically what we're saying here is that the idea that you MUST seek connection with God through religion-through other people- is wrong.

If other people and/or their books help you? good. Useful=use it.

If they or the beliefs they are peddling hurt you? then bad.

You've said you don't believe in internet support, but if you could be less cryptic in private...I keep my mouth shut to others . My mind's open enough to accommodate ocean liners.

My pm box is there. If talking about the particulars will be of assistance...:shrug: It would probably be easier to try to help you with this, as well as more-effectively done, if I understood what the hell the problem was in the first place.

 

[wynn]

Not as novel as all that.
Clog = wooden shoe, known in France as a sabot.
These were deliberately thrown into machines (mill wheels specifically, IIRC) to cause them to break down.
(Ringing any bells yet?).
Hence the word saboteur.

A serendipitous slip on Me-Ki-Gal's part, not only amusing (at the superficial level), but also historically and etymologically correct.

Wow.

Plus, it's a viable philosophy: push the machinery to failure - test its limits, force improvements.

Somehow, like a cog in a machine, this is precisely what I ended up being, even if I never specifically intended to be so (in fact I desired nothing else more than to fit in).

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Not as novel as all that.
Clog = wooden shoe, known in France as a sabot.
These were deliberately thrown into machines (mill wheels specifically, IIRC) to cause them to break down.
(Ringing any bells yet?).
Hence the word saboteur.

A serendipitous slip on Me-Ki-Gal's part, not only amusing (at the superficial level), but also historically and etymologically correct. Plus, it's a viable philosophy: push the machinery to failure - test its limits, force improvements.

Clog morphed. A clog to an American is a gear. It was the Jetsons that created the new imagery. We sell clogs and widgets in America. Interesting the shoe thing . Haiti has a third name , Foot I think or it could be shoe . Pretty sure it is Foot . We say wrench . That is funny to me how if you take out the r in wrench ? Constantine's mother was a wench. So what is your take on the greasy spoon versus green and clean. Should the leader follow in battle or hide out in a hole in the ground ?

I was thinking about serendipitous the last few days . I would really be stupid if it was not for that .

 

[wynn]

It would probably be easier to try to help you with this, as well as more-effectively done, if I understood what the hell the problem was in the first place.

It is very simple:

A person who inquires into spiritual matters, sooner or later comes into a situation where in order to have X, one first needs X, whereby X is of vital importance and one doesn't have it yet.

X can be insight, it can be good qualities, it can be qualification, faith, connections, friends, influence, ...

It is a double bind, catch 22 situation.

So far, I haven't seen a promising way to resolve it, other than to avoid it altogether, and try to go without X (whatever that X may be in a given situation).

There are post-dated cheques in spirituality too.