Show me the evidence.

[Cris]

hef,

So I hope you are still here and haven’t left because of being too sensitive. I was really hoping to see some real attempts at proving the existence of gods.

This is not a beginner’s forum; if you make a mistake here then mercy is unlikely. Humility and precision attract respect, anything else, and you are……

Just in case you are still willing to debate then -

we must agree on the method for defining the source of creation

OK.

Based on mathematical foundations. A function that complicated as the source of creation is definitely indeterminante dendant function. It depends on many many variables.

OK.

*Exact solution (That doesn't exist, it could be easily proofed that 1+1 is not always equal to 2)

I have seen it said that absolute proofs can only be achieved when we know everything, except perhaps in mathematics.

*Empirical or semi empirical solution. (These are solutions that I may use, but I know full well that they're not exact and derived from historical data).

These will doubtless be problematic and the cause for lengthy debate.

*Probablisitic solution (This could be used if the problem is too too difficult, currently hydrology is a probabilistic science. This solution is too damn inaccurate and only based on compilation of few paramaters over very few times.)

Inductive logic is essentially a probabilistic approach and most of science is based on inductive logic. But such assessments are often very subjective so again there would be enormous debate.

I will be bold and I'll say that you're knowledge of the source of creation can only be based on probabilistic solutions, for you can not claim to me that you know more about such a complicated subject than you know about rainfall, and that's a much much much much easier subject.

But the conclusion must have a very high probability, and be very clear since the claims are of such incredible magnitude.

So my question to all aethiests, why are you claiming to know that there is no god when you have no proof of such a thing???. You would ask me of course, then what makes me believe that there is a god without a proof??.

It would seem you have not had many discussions with atheists. Very few claim that there is no god as you think. The primary atheist position is a disbelief in the claims made by theists.

I say, as far as proofing things to each other, we're tit for tat, for we're using the same state of the art knowledge.

OK.

The only thing that I have on top of you is that I hide within me something that I can't share with you, and actually I don't want to share it with you, you see it's mine, call me selfish, but I think it's so cool and oh so fullfilling. When you get that thing or that answer, you'll hide it too. It's special, it's fulfilling, it's awesome, it's infinite, it's heaven. This thing or feeling is what people mistake it as religion.

So I guess at this point we can safely ignore everything else you have said because this claim you have just made about yourself is what we will want you to prove. This is the key issue and the most common claim of theists once all the claimed empirical, historical, and probabilistic, evidence has been analyzed, as has been done for thousands of years, we end up with, “but I know it inside of me” or variations on the theme you have just espoused. As in your final statement -

It's not, it's a personal connection with your creator, that can't be described under the current state of the art science.

Then the argument is lost before it has began. Your first task is to show that your claim of this special secret knowledge is somehow different from a psychotic delusion.

Unless you can overcome that first hurdle then we would have little choice but to consider you delusional. Especially when you try to claim that “we're tit for tat, for we're using the same state of the art knowledge”, and clearly you don’t believe that, since you are claiming you have something better.

 

[Cris]

whatsup,

I assure you I can annihilate every words of Cris, but sadly ignorant kids can fall to it, and they think this Cris guy is smart, WHEN THE TRUTH IS HE IS JUST ANOTHER BRAINWASHED ATHEIST, IN DENIAL OF REALITY.....

There is a famous quotation for which I cannot find the reference for now that goes something like this –

The more my opponent uses empty abuse the more confident I become with the knowledge of his desperation and fear of losing, because if he had facts, or evidence, or the ability to reason then surely he could have used those far more powerful weapons instead.

 

[heflores]

God is the dominical power.

Life is the most luminous, the most beautiful of the miracles of Dominical Power. It is the most powerful and most brilliant of the proofs of Divine Unity of the dominical power. It is the most comprehensive and most shining of the mirrors displaying the manifestations of the Eternally Besought One. Yes, on its own, life makes known a Living and Self-Subsistent One together with all his Names and acts. For life is a light, a medicine, like a potion blended from numerous attributes. Just as the seven colours are combined in light, and various drugs are blended together in a medicament, so also life is a reality made of numerous attributes. Some of the attributes in its reality expand by means of the senses; they unfold, and are differentiated. However the greater part make themselves perceived in the form of the emotions; they make themselves known by welling up out of life.

It is as if life fastens them on behind it and draws them into the place it enters. For example, when life enters a body, the existance of the dominical power is also manifest; it makes its home well and orders it with wisdom. In the same way, the Name of All-Generous is manifest, and it organizes and decorates its dwelling according to its needs. At the same time, the manifestation of the Name of All-Compassionate is apparent; it bestows all sorts of bounties for the continuance and perfection of life. And again at the same time, the manifestation of the Name of Provider appears; it produces the sustenance, material and immaterial, necessary for the perpetuation and unfolding of the life, and in part stores them up within its body. That is to say, life is like a point of focus; various attributes enter one another, indeed, they become one and the same. It is as if in its entirety life is both knowledge, and at the same time power, and at the same time wisdom and mercy, and so on..

Thus, with regard to this comprehensive essence, life is a mirror of the Eternally Besought One reflecting the essential Dominical attributes. It is due to this mystery that the Necessarily Existent One, Who is the Ever-Living and Self-Subsistent One, creates life in great abundance and plenitude, and scatters it far and wide and broadcasts it, and gathers everything around life and makes it serve it. For life's duty is great. Yes, it is not easy to be the mirror of the Eternally Besought One, it is not some petty duty.


Thus, the sudden and continuous coming into existence from nothing of these countless, numberless lives which we all the time see before our eyes - and of spirits, which are the origins and essences of lives - their being sent, demonstrate the necessary existence, sacred attributes, and Most Beautiful Names of a Necessarily Existent and Ever-Living and Self-Subsistent One as clearly as rays show the existence of the sun. Just as someone who does not recognize and accept the existence of the sun is compelled to deny the light which fills the day, so also one who does not recognize the Sun of Divine Oneness, Who is Ever-Living and Self-Subsistent and the Giver of Life and Death, has to deny the existence of the living creatures which fill the earth and even the past and the future; he has to fall a hundred times lower than an animal, to fall from the level of life to become something utterly ignorant and lifeless.

 

[Jaxom]

At least it's not all caps. :bugeye:

 

[Cris]

whatsup,

Thank you...So by admittance, your telling me that atheists is just like SOME religions and cults, who can prove nothing BUT IS PURE BELIEF...Thank you, you are no better than those cults.. yOU BELIEVE GOD DONT EXIST, BUT CANT PROVE GOD DONT EXIST, therefore a pure belief, like another cult by admittance..........

You don’t appear to have understood what I said or the basis of atheism. Do you understand the difference between disbelief and belief?

Disbelief is not the same as believing that a proposition is false. E.g. The statement “I do not believe a god exists” (a disbelief) is not the same as the statement “I believe that a god does not exist” (a belief).

You expect theists to convince you as much as they can that God exist...

I have no expectation of any such thing. I have no reason to believe that theists can succeed in proving their claims. They have been trying for millennia and they appear no closer.

but no evidence seems credible to you, it can only be credible if you can touch and see god, that aint gonna happen (possibly though)....

No that is not correct. No alleged evidence so far presented has been credible to me. I have placed no limits on the type or method of the evidence. But it must pass the high standards of evidence as one would expect for any scientific claim.

Thats why peeps in the history cannot be proven either.......

Please read my explanation of historical documentary evidence again which I have now posted for you twice.

what about incurable cancers being healed when people prayed to God? There are many cases documented on this fact....

Then quote such a reference. Claims that there is evidence does not constitute evidence.

i dare you prove to me king henry exist....you cant!!!

See my explanation on the use of historical documentary evidence that is accepted by all reputable historians.

in summary, by your admittance, atheism is just another belief, another cult..

I have admitted no such thing. I cannot help if you are unable to comprehend simple logic or the basics of a philosophy that you have made no attempt to understand. The fundamentals of atheism are a disbelief in the existence of a god or gods. Disbelief is not a belief. Atheism is primarily not a belief system.

 

[Cris]

heflores,

A very poetic post but probably more suited to the art and culture forum. Or perhaps Pseudoscience.

If it is a sermon then that is not appropriate here. This is a debate forum and your post didn't seem to request comment.

 

[Xelios]

But it must pass the high standards of evidence as one would expect for any scientific claim.

Ah, the eternally frustrating double standard of Christianity. The belief that "It doesn't matter how lame evidence for God is, he still exists. But if you want to support anything other than Christianity with evidence, it better be damn good evidence!"

They expect us to buy into 'miracle healings', 'testimonial evidence' and a 2000 year old mistranslated book, and then turn around and criticize evolution, even though the evidence supporting evolution far outweighs that supporting God.

So I have only one message to theists that use this reasoning. If testimonial evidence is acceptable evidence to you, then you must also accept the fact that scientists give lectures about evolution as evidence that it is correct. If you accept a 2000 year old book as evidence for God, then surely you must also accept the hundreds of books written about evolution as evidence as well. See where I'm going with this? You can't hold a double standard for evidence, saying 'Oh this type of evidence works when it supports my opinion, but if it supports your opinion then it is not acceptable!'

Just had to get that off my chest, because it's something I've seen a lot.

 

[heflores]

Chris,

Thanks for enlightening me that an Atheist is a person that doesn't agree with a theist view.

What would that make of a person that disagree with an athiest??

AAtheist. and If someone else find something wrong with their belief, they become

AAAtheist, then when their theory doesn't hold, they'd become

AAAAtheist. and if I convince them that they're all wrong,

I'll be an AAAAAAAtheist

This is a classic definition of a cult. Ever changing in views because it's based on nothing at all.

To the person that commented on my spelling of losers. Thanks for the help on my spelling, but I really meant loosers. You specially are a loooser with a triple o. I'll save the rest of my ooos and bad spelling and grammer tricks for future rainy days.

After you answer my AAAtheist question, please think real hard about my description of an Atheist as a decomoposable organic matter and no more, and let me know if Atheist possess any after life dimension????

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by heflores
I'll be an AAAAAAAtheist

I thought you were leaving to spend more time corrupting your children. Actually, it's much better that you spend your time here making a fool of yourself.

 

[Jaxom]

Whatsup is being upstaged...which is worse, a theist with faulty arguments, or a theist who doesn't strive to make any point at all?

You must realize that a double negative, as in your wonderful AAthiest statement, defaults back to the original argument. But I guess you're familiar with circular reasoning...

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by heflores
I'll be an AAAAAAAtheist

Perhaps studying algebra will help you understand that double negatives is same as positive. And AAAAAAAtheist = Atheist, so you don't believe in god after all?

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Cris
whatsup,

You don’t appear to have understood what I said or the basis of atheism. Do you understand the difference between disbelief and belief?

Disbelief is not the same as believing that a proposition is false. E.g. The statement “I do not believe a god exists” (a disbelief) is not the same as the statement “I believe that a god does not exist” (a belief).

THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT LIES WITHIN ATHEISM..PURE IGNORANCE....

I also have disbelief, disbelief of atheism's claim that God dont exist....BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THEISM IS A DISBELIEF....I donot believe that in order for something to exist, one must be able to see it in his eyes...NO I DONT BELIEVE IN THAT STATEMENT....
ATHEISM IS A PURE BELIEF...A BELIEF THAT GOD DONT EXIST...THOUGH YOU ALSO DISBELIEVE IN THEISM'S BELIEF, WHICH IS A BELIEF THAT GOD EXIST.....

GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEISTS (LIKE ME) HAVE PROVIDED MULTIPLE EVIDENCE OF HIS EXISTENCE (WHICH IS OUR CLAIM), MEANWHILE YOU AS AN ATHEISTS NEVER PROVIDED A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT GOD DONT EXIST......

GOT IT LITTLE CHILD???

Originally posted by Cris

I have no expectation of any such thing. I have no reason to believe that theists can succeed in proving their claims. They have been trying for millennia and they appear no closer.

I agree, for centuries manY people went to hell...But for centuries many also found God in their life...SO IT DEPENDS WHICH SIDE ARE U ON GOT IT KID?

Originally posted by Cris

Then quote such a reference. Claims that there is evidence does not constitute evidence..

if you live in Planet earth, I dont need to give u any reference that people were healed of their incurable cancer when praying to God...BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE SO STUBBORN, WELL FINE....ILL GIVE THAT REFERENCE TO YOU, BUT FIRST, SINCE YOU BROUGHT THIS OUT, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH...

YOU STATED EARLIER THAT "SCIENCE HAVE POINTED OUT THERE IS NO NEED FOR GOD IN ORDER FOR LIFE TO EXIST..." SINCE YOU CALLED YOUR "OPINIONS" WITH THE WORD "SCIENCE"..WELL NOW, PROVE TO ME SCIENTIFICALLY THAT GOD dont EXIST.....IF YOU CANT THEN I REST MY CASE,YOU ARE A LIAR...WHEN YOU PROVIDE THIS EVIDENCE, THEN I WILLL PROVIDE TO YOU THE DATA AND RESEARCH OF INCURABLE CANCCER BEING HEALED.....GOT IT?

Originally posted by Cris

I have admitted no such thing. I cannot help if you are unable to comprehend simple logic or the basics of a philosophy that you have made no attempt to understand. The fundamentals of atheism are a disbelief in the existence of a god or gods. Disbelief is not a belief. Atheism is primarily not a belief system.

IN THIS PERSPECTIVE, THEN THEISM MUST ALSO BE A DISBELIEF, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT WE DONT BELIEVE THERE IS NO GOD......GOT IT LITTLE KID?

FACE IT CRIS, YOUR IN DENIAL, YOUR BRAINWASHED, AND ATHEISM IS A JOKE.....

 

[Vienna]

Oh...now I'm so damn enlightened. Atheists are stupid....they're stupid beyond belief. Atheists are spiritually immature individuals.

Atheists are intelligent individuals. Why would an Atheist need spirituallity?

I lucked out and found a better way..

Lucked???????? Whatever you do, don't teach your kids to spell!

The only good things about aetheists is that when they finally find their way to god they become the best balanced creatures in the universe

I wasted 30 years as a christian, then I saw "the light" and realised I had been taken in with a load of bullshit. I am no more a christian and I feel more well-balanced than ever. So your comment here isn't true.

So my question to all aethiests, why are you claiming to know that there is no god when you have no proof of such a thing???.

There is no proof of god, true, but why does anyone need to believe in a god??
Please tell me. Why do you personally need to believe in god??

This thing or feeling is what people mistake it as religion.
It's not, it's a personal connection with your creator, that can't be described under the current state of the art science.

What!....You've actually got a direct line to big "G". Wow, even the White House hasn't got one of those. I bet Bush will be jealous when he hears this...phew.

Loosers Loosers, you are all loosers..
Rott in hell well, I want every one of you to roast like a turkey....
Too bad, you're all going to dye whether you like it or not and decompose and be eaten by maggots, and your souls are going no where....that's right, you don't believe in god, so he doesn't believe in you either...you're all just a stinking decomposable organic substance, that's all you are.

Bye loosers.

Aw gee, pleeeease don't go, your sooooo funny!!! I haven't laughed at anything as much in this forum apart from WHATSUPYELLINGINCAPS. Anyway top marks for the insults...typically christian!

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Cris
hef,

So I hope you are still here and haven’t left because of being too sensitive. I was really hoping to see some real attempts at proving the existence of gods.

Sorry, what can I say, chis practically begged me to stay. He's a gentelman unlike you.

You on the other hand is just a "decomposable organic matter", I'd rather discuss such an important topic with the maggots that will eat your body after death, for I'm sure that they believe in their creator.

Anyways, back to Chris, after you answer my AAAtheist question, and the afterlife question, here's another one on a more series note.

Every scientific claim was based on a new finding, for example, one falsified the notion that the earth is flat by showing evidance that the earth is indeed round. Newton proofed that gravity exist and falsified earlier theories. I heard that someone recently have shown that Einstien theory is in error by developing the expansion theory. You may not falsify the theory that universal order, meaning god, exist without giving proof to otherwise that things are in complete random.

As I said, god is no Zues, Jesus, human, dinasour, creature with wings, ect. I mention this because I think that's what you think believers believe in. I believe that god is universal order. If you don't believe god exist, that means you don't believe that order exist within the universe. Some of the order of the universe have been described. To proof that god exist, one must find the order within the universe and describe it, and some of it has already been described. Mathematics could be used to do that. Afterall, math is order.

So may you kindly define Atheist under the new light that god is defined as universal order and disprove it's existance if you wish.

Patiently awaiting your responce and the other insults of all decomposable organic matters.


You see, I have never heard of (Aflat earth theory), just because I think the earth is not flat, I shouldn't start calling myself, the disbeliever in the flat theory. Come up with your own theories before you falsify others theories.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Vienna
[
I wasted 30 years as a christian, then I saw "the light" and realised I had been taken in with a load of bullshit. I am no more a christian and I feel more well-balanced than ever. So your comment here isn't true.

Christianity is not the only way Vienna. Come on now, don't let one bad experience turn you sour all together.

You said:
Aw gee, pleeeease don't go, your sooooo funny!!! I haven't laughed at anything as much in this forum apart from WHATSUPYELLINGINCAPS. Anyway top marks for the insults...tyically christian! [/B]

You said

I say:
I'm a muslim you looser, you can't even tell who you're talking to. Go throw some more darts. Your whole life is probably a big dart throwing game. Now switch you gear to third and get your book of bashing muslims out. The christians one don't apply to me.

I'm sooooooo glad I make you laugh. I promise to stay funny, now you know I'm a muslim. Just be carefull not to burst instantanously when you laugh soooooo hard.

Ok. We don't want nothing bad to happen to Vienna here, she's like 5000 posts or someting. Let's make sure she doesn't laugh too hard. She's already vested in the site, with 401k and life insurance and the whole nine yards, me on the other hand, I'm new, so feel free to bash me, I'm not vested yet.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by whatsupyall

THERE IS NO NEED FOR GOD IN ORDER FOR LIFE TO EXIST
Well at least we agree on something

IN THIS PERSPECTIVE, THEN THEISM MUST ALSO BE A DISBELIEF, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT WE DONT BELIEVE THERE IS NO GOD......GOT IT LITTLE KID?
I don't believe you

FACE IT CRIS, YOUR IN DENIAL, YOUR BRAINWASHED, AND ATHEISM IS A JOKE....
Cris is far from brainwashed. Cris is a well educated person, very articulate and intelligent, something that you're not. Atheism is not a joke...but you are... In fact your a scream.

Why dont you pray to big "G" and ask him to give you a brain, then you can catch up with the rest of the human race.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Perhaps studying algebra will help you understand that double negatives is same as positive. And AAAAAAAtheist = Atheist, so you don't believe in god after all?

WRRRRONG little nerd. I suggest you go to the nerd forum. I had algebra, linear algebra, partial defferential equations, all sort of calculas and never would say that a double negative makes a positive.

The true answer is a double negative is being a double idiot. Two wrongs my dear doesn't make a right. Math is not everything. I guess to nerds it is.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble honey.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Vienna
[
Why dont you pray to big "G" and ask him to give you a brain, then you can catch up with the rest of the human race. [/B]

How may one pray to universal order to give someone something that it didn't prescribe for them. I would pray to god to give all Atheists a brain. but too bad, order dictates that some don't deserve one.

Hey, I know I'm a female and with limited equipment, but if you wish to get in a pissing match with me, leave god out of it, we may open a new forum and call it pissing match between Theists and Atheists. It would be really popular.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by heflores
I'm a muslim you looser

muslim, christian....who gives a dam. Do you really think it makes a difference to an Atheist.

 

[Jaxom]

A muslim with atheistic beliefs...an interesting mix.