Here is the problem with this that i see. If we choose to be what we are before we are born (If we are still in the presence of god) then why would some of us choose to be atheists and skeptics?Regulus said:
Scientific Approach to the Jesus question
- Thread starter Cris
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Thanks Regulus, I hoped we'd get to this. Experience teaches exactly NOTHING. By the time you've had the experience it's too late to correct. Therefore, what people mean when they say they've learnt from experience is that they have the MEMORY of failing by doing it that particular way (or succeeding
).I, that is me as I am now, did not experience "my" first day at school. But I have the memory of that day and what happened... And that memory constitutes part of the me that I am now. Not the experience, but the memory.
All you have is memory. So why didn't god create us the necessary memories?
PS nothing happened particularly on my first day before anyone starts looking for significance, it's just the first thing that came to mind that we probably all have in common...
Dang i was about to start asking qestionsOli said:Thanks Regulus, I hoped we'd get to this. Experience teaches exactly NOTHING. By the time you've had the experience it's too late to correct. Therefore, what people mean when they say they've learnt from experience is that they have the MEMORY of failing by doing it that particular way (or succeeding
I, that is me as I am now, did not experience "my" first day at school. But I have the memory of that day and what happened... And that memory constitutes part of the me that I am now. Not the experience, but the memory.
All you have is memory. So why didn't god create us the necessary memories?
PS nothing happened particularly on my first day before anyone starts looking for significance, it's just the first thing that came to mind that we probably all have in common...
And i agree that we are memory. And maybe he didnt give us the memory becuase he likes to see us squirm? (after looking at the horrors of humanity i can saftely say if god exists he is a sadist) :bugeye:We didn't choose to be that way, neither did Hitler choose to be the way he was. The experiences you have as a human generally can change you because your human. It's a weight you must lift to become stronger, just don't let it crush you like Hitler did.spiritual_spy said:
"Thanks Regulus, I hoped we'd get to this. Experience teaches exactly NOTHING. By the time you've had the experience it's too late to correct. Therefore, what people mean when they say they've learnt from experience is that they have the MEMORY of failing by doing it that particular way (or succeeding ).
I, that is me as I am now, did not experience "my" first day at school. But I have the memory of that day and what happened... And that memory constitutes part of the me that I am now. Not the experience, but the memory.
All you have is memory. So why didn't god create us the necessary memories?
PS nothing happened particularly on my first day before anyone starts looking for significance, it's just the first thing that came to mind that we probably all have in common..."
*sigh* Oli lol, once again we think yet the same, and at the same time we don't.
Actually experiencing it, is part of what you must do, to learn on your OWN. If you didn't, you wouldn't be the one to learn, God would learn for you. Thus your existance is meaningless.
It's like riding a bike, if your parents helped you the whole way, would you learn? If they never let go of the handle bars, would you ever learn how to ride the bike? Yes, eventually you did learn, but... who was responsible for it?
Think about it, if you can't learn on your own, what's the point? You didn't learn, God injected you with the learning experience and learned for you.
Though you do have me thinking Oli. This is why I like conversing with you, you jog the intellect Oli lol.
"chose the time to incarnate, and basically chose when we wanted to learn. What if everything was our choice after all?"Eh?Regulus said:
i will be waiting.Actually I am here longer than expected lol.
As for what you said, you bring up an interesting point....
I have theorized this that possibly even the soul has a subconscious, that we like God are so complex we would never even know ourselves as well as we should, and that we must teach our "external" conscious. Thus when we choose a life, the soul subconscious chooses the rest of the unknown, THUS life is truely all our choice.
I know, this sounds like some crazy shit doesn't it lol. I can come up with some weird ones.
I guess I can't come up with some logical explanation, becuz what I just said up there was poppycock.
As for what you said, you bring up an interesting point....
I have theorized this that possibly even the soul has a subconscious, that we like God are so complex we would never even know ourselves as well as we should, and that we must teach our "external" conscious. Thus when we choose a life, the soul subconscious chooses the rest of the unknown, THUS life is truely all our choice.
I know, this sounds like some crazy shit doesn't it lol. I can come up with some weird ones.
I guess I can't come up with some logical explanation, becuz what I just said up there was poppycock.
hmm. i got another one for you. Some people think our subconscious is our soul so wouldnt that mean that our soul has a soul? And that soul has a soul....so on?Regulus said:
NOW THAT, is some seriously crazy shit.
Now you've got me thinking even more lol.
Ok, the soul has no end to itself repeating itself thus it teaches itself by doing for itself thus it can never learn by itself and thus we never know ourselves and we remain INFINITELY mysterious! :bugeye:
Now you've got me thinking even more lol.
Ok, the soul has no end to itself repeating itself thus it teaches itself by doing for itself thus it can never learn by itself and thus we never know ourselves and we remain INFINITELY mysterious! :bugeye:
Confusing isnt it?:bugeye:
Chris said,
I have an answer for your delimma -- we can pray you won't be just a "statistical wash" when you're in a hospital bed without hope. We'll pray that you get well instead of being a guinea pig in a science project.
I'd suggest doing the study. I'm an "outlier" too that's here because of a miracle.
After you finish your statistical study and find more people believe in God after a miracle, then you'll conclude the miracle came first, then the belief in a God. You'll then conclude that people believe in God as a result of statistical luck.
So have a happy circular argument with yourself. Like I said, it's easy for an observer to write it off, but it's hard for a participant to deny a miracle.
You'll always be an observer, we'll always be participants, and that's what faith is about. The just shall live by faith not by sight. A marriage works the same way. You should be faithful in a marriage even when things don't "look good", like the wife is puking up all night, or you don't feel like doing something that's needed. Do you need a scientific experiment or some grand proof? Well if you do, then forget about keeping the wife. I'd suggest low lights and a nice dinner at your next anniversary instead of some statistical data report that proves there is faith in your marriage.
Well aren't you a party pooper with a sour disposition? Actually it sounds more like a whiner.
I have an answer for your delimma -- we can pray you won't be just a "statistical wash" when you're in a hospital bed without hope. We'll pray that you get well instead of being a guinea pig in a science project.
I'd suggest doing the study. I'm an "outlier" too that's here because of a miracle.
After you finish your statistical study and find more people believe in God after a miracle, then you'll conclude the miracle came first, then the belief in a God. You'll then conclude that people believe in God as a result of statistical luck.
So have a happy circular argument with yourself. Like I said, it's easy for an observer to write it off, but it's hard for a participant to deny a miracle.
You'll always be an observer, we'll always be participants, and that's what faith is about. The just shall live by faith not by sight. A marriage works the same way. You should be faithful in a marriage even when things don't "look good", like the wife is puking up all night, or you don't feel like doing something that's needed. Do you need a scientific experiment or some grand proof? Well if you do, then forget about keeping the wife. I'd suggest low lights and a nice dinner at your next anniversary instead of some statistical data report that proves there is faith in your marriage.
Well aren't you a party pooper with a sour disposition? Actually it sounds more like a whiner.
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But there is more.....These infinite souls COULD reside in the own reality thus giving you infinte realitys thus infinte possibilities! :m:Regulus said:AND, it does explain our likeness as God
As God would technically be INFINITELY mysterious, we would be the same....
tha's dangerous thinking, now I'm kind of freaked out. :bugeye:
I do say I like that smiley.
Confused Regulus?
Ggazoo,
Deaths in perspective: Some 40,000 Americans die each year through tobacco related disease, that’s 9/11 once every two weeks. Where are the Christian bombers destroying the cigarette factories?
Jumping through hoops trying to figure what an imaginary god might or might do is a pointless discussion since there are no factual boundaries on imaginary objects.
No neither. I see no purpose for a god.
Deaths in perspective: Some 40,000 Americans die each year through tobacco related disease, that’s 9/11 once every two weeks. Where are the Christian bombers destroying the cigarette factories?
Jumping through hoops trying to figure what an imaginary god might or might do is a pointless discussion since there are no factual boundaries on imaginary objects.
Cris said:
It does to you because it was zero to start with.
To visitor and I, we live and breath so our faith is greater than zero. We didn't need a miracle to have faith.
So let's get this straight now -- when you or someone you really care about is beyond hope you don't want anyone praying for help. Is that correct?
My contention all along.
But if god was all-powerfull then he could give you the memory of learning. Where's the difference in the end? All you have is the memory of learning to ride the bike.
If he's too complex to understand himself then by definition he's not all-knowing...
My father's currently in hospital with throat cancer. What YOU do is up to you if you pray that's your choice, but as far as I can see it'll do no good. What I am NOT going to do is pray.
You still didn't ride it, thus you weren't the one to learn it, you didn't ride it or learn on your own. Even with the memory, you still didn't do it. It's all an illusion. You still just got by the easy way. And laziness is ignorance. Also, if God were to give you the illusion of the false memory it's another implification of control because you forgot, and are inexoribly out of control.
It's like when someone asks you to take away their free will, you do it, and they have no free will, even if they were the ones with the will to ask not to have the will.
I didn't say it couldn't understand itself, because it is has infinite wisdom, thus it can understand itself.