Scientific Approach to the Jesus question

[Iasion]

Hey TW, I googled pressure radioactive decay. I didn't find the math, but I did find this:

Yup.
Fundies love to use this to pretend they are correct.

Never mind that it's a TINY affect - far too small to make the Shroud real.

Never mind that it takes a HUGE pressure - far beyond what the Shroud could have experienced.

Never mind that this type is NOT relevant to carbon dating.

Despite all that,
we can be pretty sure that TW Scott will think this proves him right, and that the Shroud is real, and that Jesus is Lord ! Hallelujah!

Iasion

 

[SkinWalker]

Setting aside the radiocarbon analyses of the so-called shroud, further analyses revealed that the shroud's image was comprised of iron oxides and mercury, the constituents of red ochre and vermilion pigments -in other words, paint (McCrone 1982).

The shroud presents an interesting paradox for christians: either the shroud is genuine or the gospels are. Both cannot be genuine, for if the shroud is, why would such an important and "miraculous" event not be recorded by the alleged authors of the gospels? Of course, the other possibility is that neither the shroud or the gospels are genuine.

As to the un-educated poppycock being passed off as some sort of "science" by TW Scott, it is clear, as Iasion says that he hasn't the foggiest understanding of what he's attempting to say. What is clear, is his very under-educated position, typical of religious nutters that will stop at nothing, including out right lies, to discredit science, as if "science" were some sort of evil entity bent on destroying their god.

Since TW Scott is so partial to library research, I'll offer him some places to educate himself. One of his under-educated arguments in this thread has been that pressure and heat affects radiocarbon results. This is simply untrue. Many, many experiments have been conducted with just these (and other) conditions in mind. Decay has been demonstrated to be constant at temperatures ranging from 2000 degrees C to -186 degrees C and in vacuum or under several thousand atmospheres of pressure (Emery 1972).

As Iasion and others have already pointed out, radiocarbon dating is calibrated and corroborated by other techniques, including varves, dendrochronology, and relative dating involving radiocarbon analysis of artifacts of known age (TW Scott's under-educated argument involving "sealed sarcophagi" is not only bollocks due to the refutation in the preceding paragraph but also because sarcophagi do not "seal" hermetically).

As an example of this sort of accuracy in radiocarbon dating, the radiocarbon date for Stonehenge in England was set to between 2000 and 1500 BCE (Atkinson 1979), which was initially thought to be ludicrous since this was well before the Druids were believed to have arrived in Britain. However, it was later corroborated by the archaeoastronomy of Gerald Hawkins, who discovered the alignment of the Aubrey holes to astronomical positions that existed about 4000 years ago using computer software (Hawkins 1963; 1964).

References

Atkinson, R.J.C (1979) Stonehenge, London.

Emery, G. T. (1972). Perturbation of nuclear decay rates. Annual Review of Nuclear Science, 22, 165-202.

Hawkins, G. S. (1963). Stonehenge decoded. Nature, 200, p. 306

Hawkins, G. S. (1964). Stonehenge as an astronomical observatory. Nature 202, p. 1258

McCrone, W. (1976). Authenticity of medieval document tested by small particle analysis. Analytical Chemistry, 48(8), 676A-679A.

McCrone, W. (1982). Shroud image is the work of an artist. The Skeptical Inquirer 6(3), 35-36.

 

[SnakeLord]

Can TW argue against that? I think not.

Lovely thread guys..

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor

I recognize your perception that the Christian religious institutions, and what you think they should be, are not the same. I am aware that many Christians think in a similar way. However, the basis of what you believe was developed by those institutions, and they selected just a few texts out of the many texts that were available for the bible. The Church decided the storyline and developed the doctrines that you now largely believe as if supernaturally inspired. While you want to distance yourself from the many wrongdoings and barbarisms of the Church you nevertheless have been indoctrinated by their underlying storyline – i.e. the story of a personal supernatural savior, which in turn is a repeated re-hash of numerous mythologies that pre-date Christianity.

It has become more of an enemy to the true Gospel than any atheist.

What is a true gospel? What you have come to believe was crafted by the politicians of those early years that created the church. The gospels were written decades after the alleged Jesus and were woven by numerous myth-makers who took older stories and blended in the current and latest popular savior/hero features. It’s all entirely fiction, as is the Jesus character himself.

God said He would end this with something different.

God is a fantasy and as such can’t say anything. It’s the myth you are quoting – wonderfully dramatic but nevertheless total fiction.

The return of the Son of Man, Jesus Christ in a demonstration of power and revelation that would judge the organizations by the Word, and destroy them with the brightness of His coming.

Exactly the stuff that dreams are made from – great fiction, and totally unreal

This is happening now.

And peoples throughout time have been waiting for justice to appear, they have always believed it was happening or about to happen.

There is something very different happening right now, supernatural, vindicated, and empowering to those it was sent for.

Which what many early Christians thought and expected it to happen in their time. It didn’t happen then and it isn’t happening now.

Its so sacred, I'm not at liberty to say what is actually happening because if someone was to mock it they might be affected for the rest of their life.

Too late – you are beginning to sound idiotic by even mentioning it.

 

[TheVisitor]

The story of a personal supernatural savior, which in turn is a repeated re-hash of numerous mythologies that pre-date Christianity.

What is a true gospel? What you have come to believe was crafted by the politicians of those early years that created the church.

Yes, the same story with different names is in almost every culture and pre-dates Christianity.True.
But that proves my point.
The world was destroyed.
Noah's three sons repopulated the Earth sending with their descendants a belief in one God, that would send someday a Saviour....a belief that had been symbolized in sacrifices since the days of Abel.
That pre-dates Christianity.
After the flood, the whole world for a time believed in Jove.....
China, India, the Middle East...they all have the remains of similar stories, some still to this day.
The belief in one God lasted until the days of Nimrod of Babylon, and then he split the world into warring fractions and taught war to the children of men, using false religions fabricated many times from portions of the original that was true mixed with lies.

No mystery how it happened, you can still see the results today.
Thats why the Bible called the apostate church in this day...seen in visions back then before it happened, Babylon.
It is a type and manifestation of the same spirit of error at work.

The truth has been said to be so simple a child could not err therein.
It may be more a mater of the heart then.
Jesus Christ hides Himself in simplicity, and reveals Himself in the same.

That said.......
He could be walking right among you and no one would know.
"Many have entertained angels unaware"
He said "unless a corn of wheat fall into the ground it abideth alone"
This is the harvest time.
The bride and bridegroom become one.
His many-membered body.

They didn't know Him then.
And you don't know who that is setting right next to you right now.
God sending His Spirit to an individual and that individual is a mouthpiece, when you receive that individual, you don't receive Him, but you receive Him that sent Him.
Jesus said, "When you receive Me, you receive not Me, but you receive My Father that sent Me." You get it?
"Insomuch as you have done unto the least of these little ones that believe in Me, you have done it unto Me."

The Scripture said, "You've entertained Angels, not knowing what you were doing, unaware of it."
Same as Abraham entertained Angels, and immediately after the Angel left and had performed miracle before him, he called the Man, God, Elohim, the Almighty God setting there eating steak sandwiches, drinking milk from the cow, eating cakes. And He was Almighty God.
So...case in point.
He has done such a good job of it, you all sit here now debating whether He even exists.
Thats amazing to me.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

The world was destroyed.
Noah's three sons repopulated the Earth sending with their descendants a belief in one God, that would send someday a Saviour....a belief that had been symbolized in sacrifices since the days of Abel.

Most myths were developed by people with a very narrow view of the world, e.g. it was just their local neighborhood that seemed like the whole world to them. E.g. The world wasn’t destroyed as your mythology proposes. The Noah myth seems to be symbolic of a much older real event called Argha-Noa – the annual celebration in ancient Egypt when the flood waters of the Nile subsided. The annual floods caused much destruction and misery but the minerals left behind created the foundation for another year of productive crops. There was no Noah and there was no ark, and there were no three sons who re-populated the earth. These are fairy stories born out of real events but twisted far beyond recognition of the source.

He has done such a good job of it, you all sit here now debating whether He even exists.
Thats amazing to me.

Yet out of all your quotes from your fantasies you cannot demonstrate one that might be true and you can’t even show that the hero of your fantasies ever existed. That you believe all those fantasies are real is truly amazing.

Just one unambiguous fact that anything you say might be real would be very useful to show that anything you say might be credible.

At least you spelt my name correctly in that last post. Did you forget to mispell it?

 

[Iasion]

Pressure definitely affects radioactive interaction causing heat and more.

False.
Pressure does NOT affect the rates of radioactive decay.
Your comment here does not prove it does.

The explosion was to get enough uranium close enough to fiss.
It did NOT increase the rate of decay.

It amazes me that you guys can spout all this crap - the facts are well known to scientists - but apologists feel free to say any old nonsense.


Iasion

 

[TheVisitor]

Just one unambiguous fact that anything you say might be real would be very useful to show that anything you say might be credible.

Seeing isn't believing.

The test is to see who will recognize the Word of God, and rise up to stand by its power.
You have had the Law and the Prophets, and if nothing there stirred a response in your heart to look for the truth, among all the lies of the world....

The Bible said..."though one would raise from the dead right before your eyes you still would not believe."

Pray not for someone like me to show you anything, ask for a revelation from God Himself.
Then you try to prove it to the skeptic of this world.......you'll find you can't.
Because your not supposed to.

 

[TheVisitor]

TheVisitor and TW,

Do you understand the concept of plain and simple stipidity? Yes. I see you do. Your statements re radioactive decay, which involves the emission of subatomic particles from the nucleus, are stupid. The normal pressures and temperatures found at the surface of the earth have no significant effect on radioactive decay. As for the shroud, there is overwhelming evidence that it is a product of the relic industry of early times.

I wasn't going pro or con for the shroud.
Mearly talking about presure and critical mass.

But for the record...Carbon 14 dating is a crock.
Lets talk about Dino bones....the unpetrified kind with red blood cells still in the marrow.
Just another tool in the long list of the erasure of our history.
Its re-wrote by the victors.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Seeing isn't believing.

The test is to see who will recognize the Word of God, and rise up to stand by its power.
You have had the Law and the Prophets, and if nothing there stirred a response in your heart to look for the truth, among all the lies of the world....

The Bible said..."though one would raise from the dead right before your eyes you still would not believe."

Pray not for someone like me to show you anything, ask for a revelation from God Himself.
Then you try to prove it to the skeptic of this world.......you'll find you can't.
Because your not supposed to.

........Your stupidity never ends does it? The way i see it the bible is one of the many "lies of the world". And by "Pray not for someone like me to show you anything, ask for a revelation from God Himself." You mean ask your deluded mind for more delusions? And God is so nice. He only takes the gulliable and deluded and not the skeptical and clear minded. Oh wait thats becuase only the gulliable and deluded can beleive that nonsense.

 

[TW Scott]

Bizarre.

We OBSERVE that pressure and heat do not effect radioactive decay.

We have OBSERVED radioactive decay under large ranges of pressure and heat - it is not affected (except under some extremes not found on Earth.)

TW Scott simply pretends an observed fact of nature is not true.

No TW Scott paid attention in Physics and Nuclear physics as well as Chemistry, Antropology, and Archaelogy. He has read several physical papers on radio carbon dating and has come to a logical conclusion.

We observe that radioactive decay is a CONSTANT LAW, yes.

And part of that law is that it si affected by radiation, pressure, heat, and contanimation.

It's like pretending people can fly :

Fundy: "people CAN fly you know"

Sceptic: "what?"

Fundy: "yes, things don't always fall downwards"

Sceptic: "um, do you have any evidence"

F: "do YOU have any evidence things always fall downwards?"

S: "well, yes, we observe it.."

F: "but can you prove it?"

S: "um, do you have any examples of things falling upwards?"

F: "do you have any proof they can't?"

and so on...

People can fly, in airplanes And people can't fall upwards as down is defined by local gravity.

I am sure readers will understand that I will probably not be answering TW Scott much more

Yes they do know and so do I.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor

Seeing isn't believing.

Those are indeed two distinct functions. But believing without seeing is simply irrational.

The test is to see who will recognize the Word of God, and rise up to stand by its power.

What test? I see no test or need of a test.

You have had the Law and the Prophets, and if nothing there stirred a response in your heart to look for the truth, among all the lies of the world....

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please be specific. There have been many claims of prophets but none have been shown credible. Do you have proof of one who was?

The Bible said..."though one would raise from the dead right before your eyes you still would not believe."

Good solid biblical propaganda – the church was good at those well worn political tricks, and they are still in use today – if you can’t show how good you are then attempt to discredit your opponent. Of course those who resort to propaganda usually have the weaker argument, which is what you have demonstrated here.

Pray not for someone like me to show you anything,

Have no fear, I never resort to talking to the air.

ask for a revelation from God Himself.

Please re-read my previous posts, God is a fantasy so it is pointless talking to such a thing. Unless you can demonstrate that it might be real.

Then you try to prove it to the skeptic of this world.......you'll find you can't.
Because your not supposed to.

Great cop-out. The more credible explanation is that there isn’t anything to show.

 

[Wilmet]

I can't believe you're arguing physics. Just present the damn laws and let them speak for themselves.

I wonder what the radioactive makeup of a god/human capable of rising from the dead would be and how much radioactivity would transfer to a shroud covering the entity's dead body at the time of resurrection? Even if it is given that such an event actually happened, the laws as we know them might not help solve such a mystery at all.

 

[SkinWalker]

Ahh... so here we've come full circle. The argument degenerates to: "it's magic."

The same bullshit that believers of magic (be it religious, tarot, divining, sorcery, channeling, aliens, esp, telekinesis, santa claus, etc) always resort to when they fail to logically demonstrate their claims.

 

[TheVisitor]

The same skeptics that said......
"If thou be the son of God, come down off the cross"

They wanted Him to clown for them, do some "magic trick" which was all they thought it was.
Same skeptics we still have today. Same spirit.
He didn't clown for nobody.
But He fulfilled every word written of Him in prophecy.
He earned the rights to this world.
Without bowing to its false god.

 

[spiritual_spy]

...sigh
1.You assume he even existed at all.
2.by prophecy you mean extremley vague statements that can apply to almsot anyone?
3.Rights? So he earned rights by dying on a cross? Wow!!! i have a veiw 2 x 4s so if i hang myself on a cross die and get revived by doctors and say i did it for the world that i get rights to the world!! I think i will do it now! (Sarcasm)

 

[spiritual_spy]

oh and your "Son of god" wasnt a very good prophet.
ON THE END OF THE WORLD
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. " -- Matthew 16:28

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " -- Luke 21:32-33

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Romans 13:11-12

"Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1 Peter 4:7

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the "Son of God." The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions. [top] http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html

 

[TheVisitor]

oh and your "Son of god" wasn't a very good prophet.
ON THE END OF THE WORLD
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. " -- Matthew 16:28

No...your just a poor interpreter of prophecy, not that you were really trying.

This was fulfilled.
Young John standing there then, lived until his imprisonment on the isle of Patmos in A.D. 90, when he saw the end of the world in a series of visions and from it wrote the entire book of revelations.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death,
till they.... see ....the Son of man coming in his kingdom. "

There is no contradiction in the Bible, not one.
Only atheist's false interpretations which they then call contradiction.
A proven debate technique.
I'm not even answering the others, they are lamer than the first.
Stop wasting our time pasting crud from atheist dot com and read the Bible for yourself if you want to know what it says.




But you know what..Spiritual Spy, your in there too.
You got your 15 minites of shame....2000 years ago right in the writings of Peter.

II PETER 3:3
¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
II PETER 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
II PETER 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
II PETER 3:6
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
II PETER 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

You just pinned that statement almost exactly, you realize that my friend?

 

[spiritual_spy]

If he was only reffering just to john he would have said ONE standing here not SOME. As some refers to more than 1 person it obviously wasnt just john he was refering to. But then again i guess thats just the atheists false interpretation.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Plus there are so many contradictions its not even funny.
Here are a few.
ON SEEING GOD
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18 [top]

ON THE POWER OF GOD
"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19 [top]

ON TEMPTATION
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1 [top]

ON FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26 [top]

ON RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
"...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " -- Job 7:9

"...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...." -- John 5:28-29 [top]