Scientific Approach to the Jesus question

[Cris]

Regulus,

Yes, ME, a being of limit. But not God. And what makes this so? Becuz it can simply predict? Not true, it is not bound by such laws. Thus your rules don't apply to it, no rules apply to it. Your giving a being that can defy all rules, rules it must obide by. These are rules we obide by. These are boundries that limit us. It is not limited to such boundries.

Not true. If it killed itself it would not be able to bring itself back to life, i.e. it is bound by a rule.

You could answer that by saying it can't kill itself, but then that would be a boundary condition. So again you would be wrong.

However, there is one well known manifestation that has no boundary conditions or rules - the human imagination. Strange how that and gods appear indistinguishable.

 

[Wilmet]

Incorrect. If you infallibly know (as god is supposed to) then I could not possibly make any other decision. If I truly have a choice then that future decision could not possibly be known.
You haven't influenced me directly, but the knowledge itself that you have is what makes me have no choice. It is the knowledge of the future that "exerts" the control, if there were no "control" then any choice could be made and the future could not be known.
Simple example, if I toss a coin and declare that I know it will come down heads, tails or on its edge (you may say that I'm playing semantics, but I'm not), I KNOW that future and there is no other outcome (ok, barring the Earth suddenly blowing up etc. ) possible. I haven't controlled the outcome but the choices are limited... The more that is known the fewer the choices available, until the stage is reached when the future is known for certain and there are no choices possible bcause it cannot go any other way. If I choose a different outcome then you have not known the future....

Let's say I'm ominscient...

If I think about it, or if asked, I know what you just said even though it was your choice to say it.

If I think about it, or if asked, I know what you are going to say even though it is your choice to say it.

In both cases, you make the choice and I have knowledge of your choice.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Here is a situtation. God comes down from heaven and tells you at exactly 12:00 you are gonna eat a ham sandwhich. If he is god it will happen becuase HE knows the future. If he is wrong he is a liar (which makes god imperfect) and then he isnt god.(Just for the arguement you hate ham) Just to prove him wrong you dont eat anything at lunch. Well that night you also decided to skip supper so you go to the kitchen to make a sandwhich. half a sleep you grab some sandwhich meat and slap it on some bread without looking. You take a bite and realize it is ham then you look at the clock and it is 12:00! As much as you tried to avoid it you did what god said you would do. Would you call that free will?

 

[Cris]

Wilmet,

If I think about it, or if asked, I know what you are going to say even though it is your choice to say it.

Not true. If you know something is going to occur in advance then that event must occur, the instigator of the action no longer has any choice in the matter and is forced to do what you know will occur. The event will have been predetermined.

 

[Wilmet]

Here is a situtation. God comes down from heaven and tells you at exactly 12:00 you are gonna eat a ham sandwhich. If he is god it will happen becuase HE knows the future. If he is wrong he is a liar (which makes god imperfect) and then he isnt god.(Just for the arguement you hate ham) Just to prove him wrong you dont eat anything at lunch. Well that night you also decided to skip supper so you go to the kitchen to make a sandwhich. half a sleep you grab some sandwhich meat and slap it on some bread without looking. You take a bite and realize it is ham then you look at the clock and it is 12:00! As much as you tried to avoid it you did what god said you would do. Would you call that free will?

I'd call that Me Being Obstinate and God With A Sense Of Humor!

Funny Stuff!

 

[spiritual_spy]

I'd call that Me Being Obstinate and God With A Sense Of Humor!

Funny Stuff!

So what if he was being serious? And not fooling around? :bugeye:

 

[Regulus]

Wilmet,

Not true. If you know something is going to occur in advance then that event must occur, the instigator of the action no longer has any choice in the matter and is forced to do what you know will occur. The event will have been predetermined.

He is not forced. How can you just simply imply that without reason?

"he's forced becuz it will occur"

No he's not. It's stil HIS choice to make, no matter what. It illustrates that God knows you more than you know yourself. Not becuz it controls you, but it's wisdom is far beyond the constructs of your inferior mind compared to it.

Your statement you have adressed is illogical. Gods not controlling the event, Gods not controlling you. How is this so hard to understand?

 

[spiritual_spy]

Oh and an extention for my ham sandwhich arguement. Lets say you didnt eat the ham sandwhich. And this is assuming god was being serious. That means god lied when he said you would eat a ham sandwhich. Then he isnt god.

 

[Regulus]

.......... I'd offer more.... but.... I'm just too tired.... my arms hurt. I'm sorry SS. -_-

Anyway, I want to talk to you about something SS, I'll PM it to you ok.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Sure.

 

[Wilmet]

Wilmet,

Not true. If you know something is going to occur in advance then that event must occur, the instigator of the action no longer has any choice in the matter and is forced to do what you know will occur. The event will have been predetermined.

Regardless of "when" who or what has knowledge of our choices, they are still our choices.

 

[Cris]

Regulus,

He is not forced. How can you just simply imply that without reason?

"he's forced becuz it will occur"

No he's not. It's stil HIS choice to make, no matter what. It illustrates that God knows you more than you know yourself. Not becuz it controls you, but it's wisdom is far beyond the constructs of your inferior mind compared to it.

Your statement you have adressed is illogical. Gods not controlling the event, Gods not controlling you. How is this so hard to understand?

I’ll provide an easier example for you then.

Assume an omniscient god exists and it created the universe. From the moment of creation it will know absolutely every action you will make throughout your entire life, as it will know the event of every other creature and activity in the universe to the end of time.

When you are eventually born, live, and die, will you have had any choice to do anything other than those events predetermined for you at the beginning of time? For a Christian this is critical since it is apparently meant to be your choice to choose your savior and live or deny him and die, but an omniscient creator will already know at the beginning of time exactly who will live and die, and you will have had absolutely no say in the matter. Where then is freewill in this scenario?

 

[Regulus]

Once again.... IM NOT a Christian.

The free will is this... it's your will.

Knowing, isn't control. Knowing is knowing. We're predictable becuz we are inferior minds. It's that simple.

Do I control a cat if I know it will eat tuna? Do I control a cow if I know it will graise?

These are all natural occurances. Our free will is like our nature, though not given to us, and not chosen, it is a predictable nature, even if it's choice.

 

[Wilmet]

In a timeless universe, all the choices you are ever going to make are already made and known. They are, were and will always be... your choices.

 

[Cris]

Wilmet,

Regardless of "when" who or what has knowledge of our choices, they are still our choices.

How would that be possible if your choice is known before you make it? Clearly the choice has been made before you make it, it would no longer be yours to make.

But see my response to regulus as well.

 

[Regulus]

So your saying it's someone elses choice, if so then who?

You still fail to explain this. Your repeating the same thing over and over.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Here is another example for you wilmet. Say God comes down from heaven again this time to tell you at exaclty 2:30 friday afternoon you will be on a plane and on your way to iraq as a member of the army and it will be your doing. You ask god if he is joking becuse you tell him you will never join the army. He says he is serious and it will happen. Well 2:30 came & went. You didnt join the army and you arent on a plane. God lied. And we know he cant lie or else he isnt god.

 

[Regulus]

God wouldn't tell you, otherwise he'd be altering your choice. becuz he would thus KNOW you would defy him just to disprove him as he knows your final choice.

Thus God wouldn't do it SS.

Anway, my arms tire. I must retire. Goodnight everyone. And thnx for the input. Thnx for that last input SS.

 

[spiritual_spy]

God wouldn't tell you, otherwise he'd be altering your choice. becuz he would thus KNOW you would defy him just to disprove him as he knows your final choice.

Thus God wouldn't do it SS.

Anway, my arms tire. I must retire. Goodnight everyone. And thnx for the input. Thnx for that last input SS.

becuase he would know that i would disobey he wouldnt have did it the first place. Good point.

 

[Cris]

Regulus,

The free will is this... it's your will.

Not if the events have been predetermined for you ahead of time. What you think of free will would then be just an illusion.

Knowing, isn't control.

I agree. But the simple existence of knowledge ahead of time means you no longer have freewill to do anything else.

Knowing is knowing.

The problem with this observation is that our usual mechanism of gaining knowledge comes after an event has occurred. In the scenario of omniscience the usually understood rules clearly cannot apply.

We're predictable becuz we are inferior minds. It's that simple.

No that is incorrect, we are not talking about prediction and probability but certainty of specific actions known long before you are born.

Do I control a cat if I know it will eat tuna? Do I control a cow if I know it will graise?

Which specific cats and cows will eat which particular foods 5000 years from now? If you know NOW exactly who and what they will do then will they be able to do anything else when the time arrives for them to play out their lives? The fact that you have precise knowledge means their lives are perfectly predetermined. As soon as perfect future knowledge exists then predetermination is an essential and necessary result. What then do we mean by freewill?

These are all natural occurances.

But this is not omniscience.

Our free will is like our nature, though not given to us, and not chosen, it is a predictable nature, even if it's choice.

I would tend to agree although the philosophy of determinism suggests quite the opposite. In that scenario every cause has an effect and given enough knowledge about all parameters it would be possible to precisely predict all future activity. At another level all your actions are the results of a very long series of prior causes and that you have no real choice but to react to immediately prior stimuli down to the minutest detail. In this argument freewill also does not exist, or at best it is unclear what that concept would mean.