Scientific Approach to the Jesus question

[Oli]

But you would have the memory, which is all you have now. The memory of the learning is ALL that have, for anything in your life.

Also, if God were to give you the illusion of the false memory it's another implification of control.

But that's all god is now - control. If he's all-knowing then he already knows the end result - who is going to be saved, who isn't. So we don't have free will since the end is a foregone conclusion.
So, personally speaking, it's more merciful to be created with the "false" memories of experiences and be in heaven than to go through the process. Because the memories would still be the same and the experience itself does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except give us the memories. Laziness doesn't come into it, because all there is at the end is the memory, false or not, implanted or not. The experinece itself (i.e. the "doing") is 100% irrelevant - the memory of doing is all that counts. Consider this, who would you regard as more "experienced" (i.e. better able to handle life) - someone who constantly repeats an action without learning from it (that is having no memory of what happens when you pull this lever) - a literal moron, or someone who can see what would happen if such and such took place - i.e. someone who has realised that things work in a certain way, that there is a process or sequence that obtains throughout life, and knows how it goes without actually having done that particular action?

I didn't say it couldn't understand itself, because it is has infinite wisdom, thus it can understand itself.

Oh, umm. I thought you were saying we were "parts of god" in order for god to understand himself. That's what happens when your PC crashes halfway through a discussion.

 

[Regulus]

But you would have the memory, which is all you have now. The memory of the learning is ALL that have, for anything in your life.

I know what I am experiencing right now Oli, it's not just memory I make the choices at the moments.

But that's all god is now - control. If he's all-knowing then he already knows the end result - who is going to be saved, who isn't. So we don't have free will since the end is a foregone conclusion.
So, personally speaking, it's more merciful to be created with the "false" memories of experiences and be in heaven than to go through the process. Because the memories would still be the same and the experience itself does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except give us the memories. Laziness doesn't come into it, because all there is at the end is the memory, false or not, implanted or not. The experinece itself (i.e. the "doing") is 100% irrelevant - the memory of doing is all that counts. Consider this, who would you regard as more "experienced" (i.e. better able to handle life) - someone who constantly repeats an action without learning from it (that is having no memory of what happens when you pull this lever) - a literal moron, or someone who can see what would happen if such and such took place - i.e. someone who has realised that things work in a certain way, that there is a process or sequence that obtains throughout life, and knows how it goes without actually having done that particular action?

Again your assuming we were created. We don't know that. And God may know what's going to happen, but it's still our choice. God's not controlling the car that hits you, it's the person in the car, and God's not the one that made you trip over that rock, and God's not the one telling you, you need to learn. You can just choose to stay in the alterverse and learn the slowest way possible. Certain souls have that choice.. And when it comes down to it, you do start out as a moron, but will learn. You act as if no one can succeed when starting from scratch. We all eventually do.

And I consider the wiser one the one who actually did it eventually, as opposed to the one who was just given the answers, simply on the grounds that he himself FOUND the information with the ability he had in the first place to do it, HIS CHOICE, HIS FREE WILL. In the end that is our ultimate tool here.it doesn't sound like the rightous path to be given all the answers, even if it's the most merciful. It also constitutes no individuality, (i.e, we are all the same.) There our difference is non existant.

Oh, umm. I thought you were saying we were "parts of god" in order for god to understand himself. That's what happens when your PC crashes halfway through a discussion.

We are, but that doesn't make us God, only we function like him and at a lesser rate.


AND I don't have all the answers. it could very well be that what you are saying is true, and that some souls choose to do it themselves, and some choose to get it all in one foul swoop. Maybe this is so.


I don't know Oli. But we weren't created, otherwise there's no free will. Thus we like God have no purpose and we just have always been.

Or maybe we choose these experiences to charish perfection. As the old saying goes... "how can we apprciate the light, if that's all we know"

 

[Cris]

Woody,

It does to you because it was zero to start with.

No you have missed the point. Given a large population and to the extent that some believe because of propitious events there will be a balance of those who disbelieve because of negative events. What you have not shown is a correlation between a propitious event and a supernatural interaction. The equal weight of negative results would indicate no interaction.

To visitor and I, we live and breath so our faith is greater than zero. We didn't need a miracle to have faith.

You speak as if faith has some desirable value, it doesn’t. It is the irrational mistake to believe a fantasy as if true.

So let's get this straight now -- when you or someone you really care about is beyond hope you don't want anyone praying for help. Is that correct?

I don’t care whether they pray or not since the action doesn’t correlate with any beneficial activity so the action is superfluous to the outcome.

 

[Wilmet]

But you would have the memory, which is all you have now. The memory of the learning is ALL that have, for anything in your life.

I might agree if we were just talking about the firt day of school... a once in a lifetime event that does not present itself again... but... what about getting burned when you touch something hot... like the stove? Sure, you have the memory... but most people also learn not to touch it in the future.

 

[Woody]

Chris said,

I don’t care whether they pray or not since the action doesn’t correlate with any beneficial activity so the action is superfluous to the outcome.

OK I got it straight now. When you are without hope you don't want anyone to ask their God to help you. You don't care. Therefore, if help was indeed available you got what you deserved whatever the outcome might be. You didn't care. Negligence is about as bad as brutality.

In conclusion, if God is indeed real, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you end up in hell because you just didn't care.

 

[Regulus]

I might agree if we were just talking about the firt day of school... a once in a lifetime event that does not present itself again... but... what about getting burned when you touch something hot... like the stove? Sure, you have the memory... but most people also learn not to touch it in the future.

That is true, being given the chance to see if you will touch the stove again.

 

[Wilmet]

...it's easy for an observer to write it off, but it's hard for a participant to deny a miracle [emphasis added].

Agreed.

 

[Oli]

I know what I am experiencing right now Oli, it's not just memory I make the choices at the moments.

Yes, but tomorrow all you will have will be the memories of those choices. The experience itself teaches nothing, only what is remembered about those experiences.

Again your assuming we were created.

No I don't. I was arguing that point because theists say that god created us. I certainly don't believe that.

God's not controlling the car that hits you, it's the person in the car, and God's not the one that made you trip over that rock

If god is all-knowing then you have no choices - it's pre-ordained.

You act as if no one can succeed when starting from scratch

I think we all start from scratch. Some learn, some don't.

And I consider the wiser one the one who actually did it eventually, as opposed to the one who was just given the answers, simply on the grounds that he himself FOUND the information with the ability he had in the first place to do it

So someone who takes 500 attempts is considered wiser than someone who can deduce principles from what he already knows? Run that by me again.
But I didn't say anything about the moron getting it right, as it happens, I was asking about repeatedly attempting = more "experience" (doing) but no memory of it, as opposed to applying memory of similar situations and getting it correct the first time.

HIS CHOICE, HIS FREE WILL.

But you were arguing there's no such thing as chance. (Or was that a different thread? No matter it's in your avatar). So you don't have free will since there was never any chance you would make any other decision...

doesn't sound like the rightous path to be given all the answers, even if it's the most merciful. It also constitutes no individuality,

Another blow against the omnipotence of god. He could create us as individuals. But are you saying that if we ever solve all the mysteries of the universe we'd no longer be individuals?

We are, but that doesn't make us God, only we function like him and at a lesser rate.

Okay. Crash sorted and I'm back in line.

I don't know Oli.

The beginning of wisdom, grasshopper.

 

[Oli]

Sorry, missed this:

what about getting burned when you touch something hot... like the stove? Sure, you have the memory... but most people also learn not to touch it in the future.

But if you don't have the memory then you'll touch it again, repeatedly until you have the memory. On the other hand retaining the memory of a stove being hot will lead you into a class description of "things that are hot and painful to touch" and you will not touch those a first time.
That is an advantage of memory as opposed to actual experience.
Unless you go around touching ever possible thing to see if that too will be painful after having been told (or learning or deducing) that it's hot.

 

[Wilmet]

If god is all-knowing then you have no choices - it's pre-ordained.

Not necessarily... Knowledge of the future could be like knowledge of the past... We can know what happened, but we did not necessarily exercise any control over what happened. If there is an all-knowing entity, it would know what is to happen, without necessarily exercising any control over what is to happen.

 

[Wilmet]

Sorry, missed this:

But if you don't have the memory then you'll touch it again, repeatedly until you have the memory. On the other hand retaining the memory of a stove being hot will lead you into a class description of "things that are hot and painful to touch" and you will not touch those a first time.
That is an advantage of memory as opposed to actual experience.
Unless you go around touching ever possible thing to see if that too will be painful after having been told (or learning or deducing) that it's hot.

And... what do you say about situations where there is more than one possible outcome or benefit or consequence to our actions...?

 

[Oli]

Fatuous question.
But the answer would be that the MEMORY of previous experiences will guide the choices.
Or are you saying that people make random choices in every situation that has more than one possible outcome? Of course they don't, they use the memories they have to to make a decision tree (with varying degrees of rigour of course).
And the memory the situation/ decision/ outcome will aid future decisions.
If the memory is not retained then each and every situation will always be new, and nothing is learnt.

 

[Oli]

Not necessarily... Knowledge of the future could be like knowledge of the past... We can know what happened, but we did not necessarily exercise any control over what happened. If there is an all-knowing entity, it would know what is to happen, without necessarily exercising any control over what is to happen.

I didn't say there was "control" by the entity over what is to happen only that it would have been pre-ordained. But if it is KNOWN what is going to happen then there is no choice. If there were a choice then it could not be known in advance -example if you KNOW I'm catching a bus tomorrow at 09:15 and 18 seconds and you're infallible then where is my choice? I may think I've made one, I may be able to rationalise or justify it on any level you want, but if it was KNOWN beforehand then it cannot possibly have been an actual choice.

 

[Wilmet]

I didn't say there was "control" by the entity over what is to happen only that it would have been pre-ordained. But if it is KNOWN what is going to happen then there is no choice. If there were a choice then it could not be known in advance -example if you KNOW I'm catching a bus tomorrow at 09:15 and 18 seconds and you're infallible then where is my choice? I may think I've made one, I may be able to rationalise or justify it on any level you want, but if it was KNOWN beforehand then it cannot possibly have been an actual choice.

If I know what your choice will be, then it's still your choice... not mine.

 

[Cris]

whoody,

OK I got it straight now.

No apparently you haven’t. Try reading what I said.

When you are without hope you don't want anyone to ask their God to help you.

Again I don’t care what fantasies they call upon I simply have nothing to indicate their actions would have any benefit.

You don't care.

Only to the extent their actions are pointless.

Therefore, if help was indeed available you got what you deserved whatever the outcome might be.

How would I know if help was available? There are potentially an infinite number of fantasies one could call upon in the hope that one might be real, clearly I would not have an infinite amount of time to make such calls. Your particular fantasy has no redeeming qualities so why would I waste my time with yours?

You didn't care.

Whether someone talked to a fantasy or not? Correct.

Negligence is about as bad as brutality.

Only if there was something other than a fantasy available. Which so far you are unable to demonstrate.

if God is indeed real, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you end up in hell because you just didn't care.

You are not very good with these intellectual games are you? Trying to twist an argument, very transparently, to imply something I didn’t say is simply disingenuous of you. Please don’t do that again.

But for the record if you didn’t understand – I don’t care if people talk with their fantasies, such actions can neither help nor hinder me, but I do care about life in all its forms, see my logo. What I won’t do is waste my time looking for hard answers to real life and death issues in the world of fantasies.

 

[Oli]

If I know what your choice will be, then it's still your choice... not mine.

Incorrect. If you infallibly know (as god is supposed to) then I could not possibly make any other decision. If I truly have a choice then that future decision could not possibly be known.
You haven't influenced me directly, but the knowledge itself that you have is what makes me have no choice. It is the knowledge of the future that "exerts" the control, if there were no "control" then any choice could be made and the future could not be known.
Simple example, if I toss a coin and declare that I know it will come down heads, tails or on its edge (you may say that I'm playing semantics, but I'm not), I KNOW that future and there is no other outcome (ok, barring the Earth suddenly blowing up etc. ) possible. I haven't controlled the outcome but the choices are limited... The more that is known the fewer the choices available, until the stage is reached when the future is known for certain and there are no choices possible bcause it cannot go any other way. If I choose a different outcome then you have not known the future....

 

[Regulus]

Incorrect. If you infallibly know (as god is supposed to) then I could not possibly make any other decision. If I truly have a choice then that future decision could not possibly be known.
You haven't influenced me directly, but the knowledge itself that you have is what makes me have no choice. It is the knowledge of the future that "exerts" the control, if there were no "control" then any choice could be made and the future could not be known.
Simple example, if I toss a coin and declare that I know it will come down heads, tails or on its edge (you may say that I'm playing semantics, but I'm not), I KNOW that future and there is no other outcome (ok, barring the Earth suddenly blowing up etc. ) possible. I haven't controlled the outcome but the choices are limited... The more that is known the fewer the choices available, until the stage is reached when the future is known for certain and there are no choices possible bcause it cannot go any other way. If I choose a different outcome then you have not known the future....

Your basing this off of human concepts. If it's a being of a infinite power then by definition it can know and yet not control you.

You yourself keep using the same statement "if it's a being of infinite power"

same goes for your chance statement.

If it's a being of infinite power it can do anything. It can do, and yet not do. Make 1+1= 3 and still make it logical. make a circle square, create a rock it cannot carry and carry it. BUT WE cannot understand that. Our perspective is limited, we think in terms like this that limit us. That is why we cannot understand such a thing and put logical terms to it.

If it does exist, it can doing anything.

Once again we are all left to one thing, faith. It all adds up to one thing. You and I cannot logically say a Universe can create itself, or explain God.

We are all left to one thing now. and if you cannot except that, then don't Oli. Infinitely try to explain a Universe creating itself, or how God can do the same.

In the end we cannot say anything.

 

[Oli]

No, this is hard (harder than I thought) to explain. You don't influence me. But the FACT that the future is known does.
Put it this way, if I truly had a choice then I could pick something that you hadn't predicted, right? But if you're an infallible fortune teller who ALWAYS gets it correct then no matter how much I tell myself I could have picked a different answer, I couldn't have because you're always right, and therefore would not have said I was going to choose that answer if I weren't going to choose that answer.
So it comes down to
A) we have a choice and free will and there is absolutely no such thing as fortune-telling and predicting the future, predestination and omniscience or;
B) we have no choices whatsoever and everything is pre-destined despite any protestation we make to the contrary.
We can invent whatever reasons we like for picking apples over pears, but if pears were infallibly predicted then we didn't have the choice or it couldn't have been predicted.

 

[spiritual_spy]

No, this is hard (harder than I thought) to explain. You don't influence me. But the FACT that the future is known does.
Put it this way, if I truly had a choice then I could pick something that you hadn't predicted, right? But if you're an infallible fortune teller who ALWAYS gets it correct then no matter how much I tell myself I could have picked a different answer, I couldn't have because you're always right, and therefore would not have said I was going to choose that answer if I weren't going to choose that answer.
So it comes down to
A) we have a choice and free will and there is absolutely no such thing as fortune-telling and predicting the future, predestination and omniscience or;
B) we have no choices whatsoever and everything is pre-destined despite any protestation we make to the contrary.
We can invent whatever reasons we like for picking apples over pears, but if pears were infallibly predicted then we didn't have the choice or it couldn't have been predicted.

Thats one of the better explanations i have seen for the predestination/free will arguement.

 

[Regulus]

Put it this way, if I truly had a choice then I could pick something that you hadn't predicted, right?

Yes, ME, a being of limit. But not God. And what makes this so? Becuz it can simply predict? Not true, it is not bound by such laws. Thus your rules don't apply to it, no rules apply to it. Your giving a being that can defy all rules, rules it must obide by. These are rules we obide by. These are boundries that limit us. It is not limited to such boundries, nor any boundries. If it is, then it is not God.

We are getting NO WHERE. NO WHERE Oli.

This descussion leads to no where as all of these do.