sandy: answer these claims against Christianity

[SetiAlpha6]

Noooooo thats not what i said. The simple knowledge of salvation is givien out to to millions but the deeper meanings and deeper wisdom are given to those who accept the simple messages first. Step by step.

Adstar, in truth, the parables were designed to prevent people from understanding even the basics of the gospel not the “deeper things” which you desperately wish were true. They were clearly designed to confuse, to deceive, and to prevent the wrong sort of people from understanding even the very basics so that they might be saved. That is why Jesus spoke to the people in parables instead of in clearly understood words.

Even Jesus’ own disciples (those who had a good heart, those who were trying to follow Him) could not interpret them without His help. How could anyone else hope to do so? People, within the church, still argue about their meaning to this day. And churches all over the world still divide and fracture apart at the seams over them.

It was the “wrong sort of people” that needed to be saved most of all! But the gospel was hidden from their understanding.

Why?

 

[Adstar]

I have already explained it to you clearly on more than 3 occasions. But you seem to have a mind that can read but a mind that cannot understand.

See you have been blinded; the miracle is that you are blinded even when it is expressed to you in plain and simple terms. My post is not a parable.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I have already explained it to you clearly on more than 3 occasions. But you seem to have a mind that can read but a mind that cannot understand.

See you have been blinded; the miracle is that you are blinded even when it is expressed to you in plain and simple terms. My post is not a parable.

Your post is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

Luke 8:10
And He said, " To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Mark 4:11-12
11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

We sure cannot have these people "return and be forgiven" now can we?

Wow! That would be terrible indeed! :bugeye:

 

[Adstar]

You capping of scripture does not make your position valid. Yes they where blinded because they had rejected God. It happened then and it is happening now. Right as we converse. Indeed it was prophecised to happen. It has happened to you. Millions have joined you and many more millions will.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[TruthSeeker]

Adstar, in truth, the parables were designed to prevent people from understanding even the basics of the gospel not the “deeper things” which you desperately wish were true. They were clearly designed to confuse, to deceive, and to prevent the wrong sort of people from understanding even the very basics so that they might be saved. That is why Jesus spoke to the people in parables instead of in clearly understood words.

Even Jesus’ own disciples (those who had a good heart, those who were trying to follow Him) could not interpret them without His help. How could anyone else hope to do so? People, within the church, still argue about their meaning to this day. And churches all over the world still divide and fracture apart at the seams over them.

It was the “wrong sort of people” that needed to be saved most of all! But the gospel was hidden from their understanding.

Why?

God is not straightforward. You cannot say "God is a man" or something like that. There are no words to express God's Word. Therefore, parables are used to illustrate it. And, really, the parables are designed to simplify the message, rather then confuse people. People are confused because they are trying to understand an unfantomably wise being. As the Psalms say, His wisdom is beyond human understanding...

 

[cole grey]

They were clearly designed to confuse, to deceive, and to prevent the wrong sort of people from understanding even the very basics so that they might be saved. That is why Jesus spoke to the people in parables instead of in clearly understood words...
Why?

Perhaps each human consciousness is not to be kept intact in bliss or torture for all eternity, as most western religions state. Perhaps God wants to preserve humanity as a race or historical "entity", by letting it evolve through many trials and problems, so IT can be saved. That might necessitate a message that isn't immediately functional for all individuals.

Just a thought. I don't really know, although I have though about it quite a bit.

There is something there too in what truthseeker said - how do you explain something to someone who can't yet understand, in a way that will stimulate them to get to a point where they do (actually and not in a misrepresentation) understand?

 

[Dana D]

I had the same question many years ago. The answer given to me was: The OT was to show humans how unworthy we are (If you want to earn my love then you have to follow these rules perfectly.) Since humans couldn't then God said, 'I love you anyway' and provided his blessing freely in the life/death of Jesus. The OT was to show us we don't earn heaven. The NT was to show us heaven is a gift.

Even most Christians fail to internalize this. Heaven/eternal blessing is not bought with deeds, but with a heartfelt understanding of love. A kind and giving life (good works) are the natural result of a right heart. "You shall know them by their fruits."

 

[SetiAlpha6]

You capping of scripture does not make your position valid. Yes they where blinded because they had rejected God. It happened then and it is happening now. Right as we converse. Indeed it was prophecised to happen. It has happened to you. Millions have joined you and many more millions will.

I am but one person who is trying to find the truth and trying to repel the evil that I find in this world. You know things like, racism, slavery, genocide, eternal torture, and teaching children to look down on and judge others who are different than them, and teaching adults to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Things like that and a lot more!

You seem to be operating on the premise that the Jews individually rejected the gospel from a position of full knowledge and understanding, when according to the Bible, these things had been hidden from them, from the creation of the world.

Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

If they were blinded, they were blinded by the teachings of their very own Scriptures which taught them to pursue and kill without mercy anyone who tried to teach them a different "truth" than the one that had already been given to them directly by God.

So guess what! They ended up killing their own "God" in order to obey their God.

But it is still all their fault, right?

 

[Dan the Man84]

LOL great thread. The Bible thumpers must be crying themselves to their evil demonic God, er, I mean their slavery supporting yet loving God

 

[Dan the Man84]

I had the same question many years ago. The answer given to me was: The OT was to show humans how unworthy we are (If you want to earn my love then you have to follow these rules perfectly.) Since humans couldn't then God said, 'I love you anyway' and provided his blessing freely in the life/death of Jesus. The OT was to show us we don't earn heaven. The NT was to show us heaven is a gift.

Even most Christians fail to internalize this. Heaven/eternal blessing is not bought with deeds, but with a heartfelt understanding of love. A kind and giving life (good works) are the natural result of a right heart. "You shall know them by their fruits."

so explain why your loving Christian God supports slavery. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, your response should be humorous.

 

[Adstar]

I am but one person who is trying to find the truth and trying to repel the evil that I find in this world.

No. Your not trying to find truth. Your trying to establish "truths" that are acceptable to your measurements.

You seem to be operating on the premise that the Jews individually rejected the gospel from a position of full knowledge and understanding, when according to the Bible, these things had been hidden from them, from the creation of the world.

Not all the Jews where blinded. Only those who had hardened their hearts to the truth.

Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Yes and it is a wonderful truth that He revealed. That’s what i think and i embrace it with joy.

If they were blinded, they were blinded by the teachings of their very own Scriptures which taught them to pursue and kill without mercy anyone who tried to teach them a different "truth" than the one that had already been given to them directly by God.

No they where blinded by God because they attempted to interpret the will of God to conform to their own measurements.

So guess what! They ended up killing their own "God" in order to obey their God.

But it is still all their fault, right?

Yep. God placed himself into the hands of a stiff-necked and rebellious people who time and time again would not come to him. Who time and time again killed the prophets.

Tell me who would God use to kill Jesus? To bring about Redemption of sinners? Would He use those who loved Him or those who hated Him. The final lesson as a poster has alluded to above will be to the Jewish people when they see Him whom they have pierced coming in glory and then they will mourn and know just who Jesus is.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

...God placed himself into the hands of a stiff-necked and rebellious people who time and time again would not come to him. Who time and time again killed the prophets.

Are you sure about this? Did this really happen "time and time again"?

How many prophets were actually killed with the agreement of the majority of the Jewish people? Even one?

They did kill some of the false prophets, but can you name even one of these numerous true prophets that were supposedly killed by the Jews themselves (as a group) because of their convicting teachings?

This is supposed to have happened over and over again, just as you say. So, can you name perhaps even two of the 30-plus prophets that are listed in the Old Testament that met this fate? The "Major Prophets" of the Jews are supposedly the ones that wrote the books of the Bible. I would think that such a “stiff-necked and rebellious people” would have killed most of these individuals in this manner for their teachings. But which of these were actually killed for this reason? Was Isaiah, or Ezekiel, or Daniel, surely Jeremiah must have been. Were they?

And why would they kill these prophets "time after time", perhaps because they hated what they said, but still preserve their teachings in a collection of scriptures as if they valued what they said and wanted to preserve their teachings forever? Just wondering?

It is also somewhat curious as to why the Jews were supposed to be so upset with Jesus when He claimed to be God, they regarded it as blasphemy, and when he openly broke the very Laws that God had given them, if they had not only rejected God but had rejected His Law as well. Why would they even care, unless they were still trying to follow God and His Law? Any ideas?

If you decide to take a look at these questions, please let me know what you find.

 

[Adstar]

Do you think that the only prophets where the ones who are included in the Torah and the bible??? Sorry there have been many prophets and there are many prophets today. People sent to give Gods message are killed for it even today.

So your challenge is based on your ignorance of unrecorded history. God knows all the prophets not just the ones recorded in the bible. And Jesus knew all the prophets when he said:

Matthew 23
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

And why would they kill these prophets "time after time", perhaps because they hated what they said,

Yes. They hate the message. Just as followers of the messiah Jesus are hated today because we believe the Message that is hated by the world.

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

How true the prophecy. Things are moving just as He predicted.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Dana D]

so explain why your loving Christian God supports slavery. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, your response should be humorous.

I did not say the Christian God was my god. A troll assumption on your part, since most Christians would consider me "apostate". I was mearly answering someones question about why the OT & NT are so different, based on an explaination given to me.

As far as slaves - Once again, dredging up the explaination given to me for that very question was slaves in the OT were due to their being conquered by the Israelites by decree from God as punishment for their idolatry. Something like prisoners in our own jails today. I don't recall the NT stance. Adstar?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Do you think that the only prophets where the ones who are included in the Torah and the bible??? Sorry there have been many prophets and there are many prophets today. People sent to give Gods message are killed for it even today.

So your challenge is based on your ignorance of unrecorded history. God knows all the prophets not just the ones recorded in the bible. And Jesus knew all the prophets when he said:

Matthew 23
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



Yes. They hate the message. Just as followers of the messiah Jesus are hated today because we believe the Message that is hated by the world.

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

How true the prophecy. Things are moving just as He predicted.

I do not see how this all fits together in reality.

The Jews, if they were truly rebellious against God, should not care about the Law of God at all, they would be lawless, yet they are clearly not lawless, either in how they live or in how they react to Jesus. They seem to care a great deal about the Law, as I said. They even demanded the death of Jesus because of their love of God and because of their dedication to His Law. Does God then condemn them for actually trusting the prophets He sent to them and for seeking to obey the very Law that He gave them?

Since I have apparently been blinded to the truth by God, perhaps I just should not ever expect any of this to make any sense to me.

 

[Hellblade8]

Hellblade8:

How do you tell between the parts of the bible that are "outdated" and the ones that are still current?

Sorry for the delay, internet problems.

But yes, Jesus changed many of the laws. Alot of the stuff that people claim is bad about Christianity is actually outdated, and its more ironic given that no one goes against Jewish people (for the most part) and yet they do still hold all of these as truth.

 

[Hellblade8]

jesus made it clear that the laws of the old testament were to be followed strictly, so whatever law is said in the old testament is just as valuable in the new testament.

Untrue. Or should we recall the lesson of the Sabbath? You know, where Jesus basicly said it was okay to do work on the Sabbath, and that no man shall judge another on how he spends the Sabbath. Or how about the fact that Jesus said that you may now eat anything because nothing from the outside can make you unholy, for only that which comes from the inside makes you unholy, such as evil thoughts. Or how about when a woman who had commited adultery was brought before Jesus and the priests demanded that she be stoned to death? Instead of having her put to death, he instead said, "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone."

Even Jesus, who is without sin, did not cast a stone at her. He told her that since no one was left to accuse her, that he would not do so either and let her leave. Or how about when Jesus changed the law of an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth? Instead, he said to turn the other cheek. These are all laws of which belonged in the OT. If what Jesus said before is that all laws are in still effect, then why would he teach people to disobey them?

More likely Jesus was not quoted properly, or understood when he made the remark.

 

[Hellblade8]

I did not say the Christian God was my god. A troll assumption on your part, since most Christians would consider me "apostate". I was mearly answering someones question about why the OT & NT are so different, based on an explaination given to me.

As far as slaves - Once again, dredging up the explaination given to me for that very question was slaves in the OT were due to their being conquered by the Israelites by decree from God as punishment for their idolatry. Something like prisoners in our own jails today. I don't recall the NT stance. Adstar?

God does not support slavery in NT, but Jesus does address it. He tells masters to treat their slaves well and be fair, and for slaves and servants to treat their masters with love and kindness. He said this because he didn't expect slavery to vanish off the earth, and God's OT version of a slave is more akin to a servant than the more american idea of slavery. In fact, if you put out an eye of a slave or knock out a tooth, or any other permanent damage to them, they are to be set free as payment for their loss.

Does Jesus prefer people to be free? Yes, of course he does, but he doesn't expect it to vanish just because he says so, no one's going to do that. And in a way, slavery solves some portion of being poor on the street. It was more preferable in most cases as the slave gets a better place to live and their freedoms aren't all that bad compared to another average person. So rather than hope that the problem doesn't exist, Jesus tried to give advice on what to do with a situation as such as slavery.

 

[Hellblade8]

Your post is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

Luke 8:10
And He said, " To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Mark 4:11-12
11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

We sure cannot have these people "return and be forgiven" now can we?

Wow! That would be terrible indeed! :bugeye:

You fail to understand what Jesus is saying. The point of the parables is that those who are closed minded and arrogant of God will not understand because they do not wish to, thus all they here is babble of a man of old days. However, to those who are open minded and to those who serve God will understand what the parables mean because they are willing to understand.

Mark 4:11-12
11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven."

Its not about keeping people out, but people keeping themselves out because they are not willing to understand. Jesus in this manner is giving you a chinese puzzle box in effect, those who are willing to learn and examine it are able to open it and recieve the gift of knowledge, while those who are ignorant are too foolish to play with such a silly thing in their minds, and thus discard it. And still there are those who understand, but still toss away the gift they have unlocked.

 

[Hellblade8]

LOL great thread. The Bible thumpers must be crying themselves to their evil demonic God, er, I mean their slavery supporting yet loving God

The disturbing idea is that you think its a joke to insult something that is often considered very personal, even atheists tend to get worked up about religion. And again, Yahweh is not demonic or supportive of slavery in the way you suggest.