sandy: answer these claims against Christianity

[cole grey]

God should try to be clearer, don't you think? He doesn't express himself very well to his Creation.

Whether we should use the word "well" here depends on what God is trying to achieve.
An evolved humankind might be reached through another method, but simply planting a consciousness into a fully evolved human seems not to be the way it is done. Perhaps if God did that and simply gave a prehistory to humanity as simple as, "on day X God created man", any conscious (non-programmed) species would have a hard time taking that literally, and question it all anyway, leaving us about where we are now.

I would agree that anyone who says that God is being clear on everything is either silly or has some special personal revelation I am unaware of.

But why don't you think of a better way for God to work that will coincide with the system we are in. It is easy for someone to say, "I could do it better," when we don't even know what the real rules of the universe are yet, and have only a basic understanding, with many of our highest level theories being worked out on computer models and not in any lab.

 

[Adstar]

Whether we should use the word "well" here depends on what God is trying to achieve.

Yes how do you give a message that you want some to hear while you want others not to understand it.

Simple you send a message in a code and give those who you intend the information for with the Key to the code. That way you can give a message and also hide the message at the same time.

The bible is a code book with a myriad of codes in it. Messages that many are given understanding to know and some that will not be known until the Code Righter says it is time for the keys to be given out.

Such an Awesome work of Words. To reveal great things and also to hide great things at the same time. Brilliant


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Hellblade8]

Because sandy loves to praise Jesus, the Christian God, believes the Bible and her religion fully, and usually shows no respect or interest in others, I would like for her to debate these claims. Tell me why your God says the repulsive things he says in the Bible.

I'm bored so I'll take a crack at it.

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Chapter?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Deuteronomy is outdated. Otherwise would not have Jesus handed Himself in to the authorities on the account of this alone?

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Witches where viewed as evil people who could cast spells. More than likely where commanded to be killed because they where con artists. Example: Sylvia Brown.

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Again, outdated.

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Outdated, but again, likely because they are con-artists.

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Outdated.

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Outdated.

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Can hardly blame them, how would you feel if your wife cheated on you with someone? Of course, this too is outdated, or don't you recall "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?":bugeye:

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Outdated.

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Outdated, though it is a sin and may lead to divine punishment from God.

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Outdated.

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Outdated.

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Outdated.

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

1) Wrong, a man did not have to have his wife killed of she was not a virgin, no questions are actually asked or raised, and often only came if the man was displeased about the subject.

2) Again, outdated.

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Outdated.

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Outdated.

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Outdated.

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Outdated.

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Outdated.

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Outdated.

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Outdated, in fact Jesus Himself made it a point on this one, healing people on this holy day.

2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God did not order their death, Elisha did. Perhaps this is why people aren't supposed to curse?

God Kills the Curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Perhaps they shouldn't look into something they shouldn't?

Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Very strange, likely some of that OT strangeness.

Killing the Good Samaritan

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Funny how in NT Jesus uses the Good Samaritan in a interesting manner, likely making this outdated.

3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Waaaaaaaaaaay outdated, even in the time of the Jews. God said that all people are responsible for their own actions.

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

He gave them life.

Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Again, He gave them life.

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

Same as above.

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Old style divine punishment.

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Same as above.

4) Miscellaneous Murders

More of Samson's Murders

(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

Again, as above.

Peter Kills Two People

There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

Perhaps she shouldn't lie to God then?

Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

Again, He is the ultimate judge, He says who lives and who dies.

You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Outdated.

Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Outdated.

Kill Followers of Other Religions

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

Murder

At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

Kill All of Babylon

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Micah Kills a Whole Town

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

[/QUOTE]


Dude, most of this shit is waaaay outdated since Jesus came, some even before then. Why bother her with this crap?:bugeye:

 

[James R]

Hellblade8:

How do you tell between the parts of the bible that are "outdated" and the ones that are still current?

 

[Star_Kindler]

Anytime where the New and Old differ, the Old is outdated.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Yes how do you give a message that you want some to hear while you want others not to understand it.

Simple you send a message in a code and give those who you intend the information for with the Key to the code. That way you can give a message and also hide the message at the same time.

The bible is a code book with a myriad of codes in it. Messages that many are given understanding to know and some that will not be known until the Code Righter says it is time for the keys to be given out.

Such an Awesome work of Words. To reveal great things and also to hide great things at the same time. Brilliant


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar, you are apparently saying that God then hides the message of salvation from those who need it the very most.

Or, perhaps you are saying that God hides the message of salvation from people who are too blind to see it anyway? What would be the point of this?

Or, perhaps you are saying that God uses this "code" to actually prevent people from being saved? This would place God and the Devil in exactly the same business, would it not? According to the Bible this is exactly what God does. He is actively preventing people from being saved. That is why He uses parables.

Why would God need to hide His message of salvation from anyone?

 

[James R]

There's nothing in the New Testament about a prohibition on eating shellfish. But there's a clear prohibiting on that in Leviticus.

So, what do you do in that situation, Star_Kindler? Nothing in the New Testament says the old law against eating shellfish doesn't apply any more. So, do you think it is important to follow that law still.

Or is it more a case of disregarding everything that is in the Old Testament that isn't explicitly repeated in the New Testament? Or what?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

There's nothing in the New Testament about a prohibition on eating shellfish. But there's a clear prohibiting on that in Leviticus.

So, what do you do in that situation, Star_Kindler? Nothing in the New Testament says the old law against eating shellfish doesn't apply any more. So, do you think it is important to follow that law still.

Or is it more a case of disregarding everything that is in the Old Testament that isn't explicitly repeated in the New Testament? Or what?

Perhaps it is simply that, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest…la…la…la…la...la." Isn't there a song about this?

 

[cole grey]

There's nothing in the New Testament about a prohibition on eating shellfish. But there's a clear prohibiting on that in Leviticus.

I thought that Jesus made it clear that the old law was "for man", i.e. what is good for mankind remains valuable, and that which is harmful (like not pulling a sheep out of a well, or picking grain to eat, on the sabbath) should be ignored.

Simple principle.

One thing about the law - have you people thought about the probability that 99% of the citizens were never even exposed to the texts of Levitical laws, and ONLY the priests and scholars were exposed to it? The big ones were probably well known, but the rest were probably, in practice, close to non-existent.

Jesus probably didn't even need to tell a farmer to go ahead and pick some food or save his sheep on the sabbath, they probably would have laughed and said, "well, duh". I'm sure only the scholars and priests had to be given this argument.

 

[audible]

jesus made it clear that the laws of the old testament were to be followed strictly, so whatever law is said in the old testament is just as valuable in the new testament.

 

[cole grey]

jesus made it clear that the laws of the old testament were to be followed strictly, so whatever law is said in the old testament is just as valuable in the new testament.

Jesus didn't follow the law strictly - the stories of him working on the sabbath and his defense of his and his followers actions doing so are very well known. I would think you would be familiar with those stories by now, but if you are too busy to become better informed about the subject (although you certainly speak as though you have some authoritative knowledge), I can show you exactly where, just for the sake of knowledge and clarity.

Also, it is stated that Jesus was "without sin" (1 Peter 2:22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.") What does that mean when he clearly didn't follow the law strictly?

 

[audible]

Jesus didn't follow the law strictly - the stories of him working on the sabbath and his defense of his and his followers actions doing so are very well known. I would think you would be familiar with those stories by now, but if you are too busy to become better informed about the subject (although you certainly speak as though you have some authoritative knowledge), I can show you exactly where, just for the sake of knowledge and clarity.

no need, all this is totally irrelevant, we aren't just talking about jesus, it's a case of like father, like son, and do as I say not as I do.

Also, it is stated that Jesus was "without sin" (1 Peter 2:22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.") What does that mean when he clearly didn't follow the law strictly?

he also commited suicide.

 

[FreeThinkers]

Christians say that the that Old Testament stuff was replaced by the New Testament, although they still retain the right to hate homosexuality and abortion...

Abortion is WRONG and it is MURDER. You can't deny that.

 

[SnakeLord]

Abortion is WRONG and it is MURDER. You can't deny that.

1) Ectopic pregnancy.

If the fetus is not aborted the tube will rupture and the mother will most likely die, (along with the fetus obviously).

Do you still assert that abortion is WRONG or have you now changed your tune and assert that it is indeed fully justified at times? Would you prefer that the mother also die? Hmmm....

2) If a woman gets an abortion when the would be 'child' is just a blastocyst would you still assert that abortion is murder? Needless to say, removing a blastocyst is somewhat like removing a cancerous tumour - in fact cancer drugs are generally used to destroy the cells.

 

[superstring01]

Sandy's no longer a participating member of this forum (so she claims), so this thread is kind of moot.

~String

 

[spidergoat]

Abortion is WRONG and it is MURDER. You can't deny that.

Denied.

 

[TruthSeeker]

1) Ectopic pregnancy.

Excellent example.

 

[cole grey]

no need, all this is totally irrelevant, we aren't just talking about jesus, it's a case of like father, like son, and do as I say not as I do.he also commited suicide.

You can't just assert that the argument is irrelevant, unless you know the passages I am talking about. You said, Jesus followed the law "strictly", which is absolutely, provably, untrue. You said this in response to my assertion that the law was not meant to be followed to the letter WHEN DOING WHAT IS RIGHT conflicts with it.
So, Jesus healed on the sabbath, picked food (with his followers), etc.

If you can't admit that your statement was wrong on that level you are simply being lame - if you want to make an assertion that Jesus wanted people to follow the law strictly, without regard to the situation, using sensible background information, you should do that. Isn't that what a person with a "clear critical mind" would do?

 

[Adstar]

Adstar, you are apparently saying that God then hides the message of salvation from those who need it the very most.

Noooooo thats not what i said. The simple knowledge of salvation is givien out to to millions but the deeper meanings and deeper wisdom are given to those who accept the simple messages first. Step by step.

Or, perhaps you are saying that God hides the message of salvation from people who are too blind to see it anyway? What would be the point of this?

No again.

Or, perhaps you are saying that God uses this "code" to actually prevent people from being saved? This would place God and the Devil in exactly the same business, would it not? According to the Bible this is exactly what God does. He is actively preventing people from being saved. That is why He uses parables.

Because they had already rejected God. If you hate the love of the truth God will block deeper understanding from you.

But again i doubt you will understand what i am saying. You have already rejected the simple message of salvation, havn't you?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

There's nothing in the New Testament about a prohibition on eating shellfish. But there's a clear prohibiting on that in Leviticus.

So, what do you do in that situation, Star_Kindler? Nothing in the New Testament says the old law against eating shellfish doesn't apply any more. So, do you think it is important to follow that law still.

Or is it more a case of disregarding everything that is in the Old Testament that isn't explicitly repeated in the New Testament? Or what?

Eating anything does not make one immoral. Overeating is a sin but eating is not sin and does not make a person a sinner. The law was not instituted because eating some kinds of food is sin. But because eating some kinds of food is not good for your health. But the Jews had turned the dietary laws into a form of self righteousness.

That eating something made one evil and not eating something made one Good.

So why did people face punishment for eating no Kosher foods?

Not because they where evil for eating the foods but because they where disobeying the will of God. The food did not defile them but doing something against the will of God defiled them.

So if you want to have a healthy diet then adopt OT Kosher eating laws. But never think that by doing so you become morally superior to your neighbours. That kind of thinking is prevalent in islamic thinking to this day. That pork eaters are somehow sinners.

Jesus said on the issue:

Mark 17
14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”


All Praise The Ancient Of Days