samcdkey on Islam

samcdkey said:
I see your objectivity has limits. :p

Believe what you like, I'm sure your interpretation is way more legitimate.

I wonder who these are then:

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the Sabians; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. (Qur'an 5:69)
i do not believe in god.then i have to fear?
what is this last day?
do u have a reffence site to this surah?
 
predator_190 said:
so i dont beileve in god and the last day.then i must fear.
what happens in the last day?

If you don't believe in God, why do you believe in the last day? :confused:

Anyway according to the Quran,

So whosoever does good equal to the weight of an atom , shall see it.
And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it. (99:7-8)
 
samcdkey said:
If you don't believe in God, why do you believe in the last day? :confused:

Anyway according to the Quran,

So whosoever does good equal to the weight of an atom , shall see it.
And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it. (99:7-8)
i dont believe in god and the last day-i dont believe in both.i guess what you want to understand and the intent of the source you read are subjective.
i didnt understand nothing from that quote-is that all ther is about the last day?
 
Sorry I don't click on unknown sources. Anyway looks like you are interested only in propaganda. Bye.
 
thedevilsreject said:
give credible sources, all you ever supply are unsafe links tha no-one wants to click incase they get viruses
now tell me-if i will give such a source-how will that serve my interest?
 
Samcdkey: Can you tell me which texts are actually attributed to Mohammed, and which chapters describe the kind of government you outlined in the first few posts of this thread?

I've looked into this a bit and saw nothing but the legal writings of historical scholars, not Mohammed himself.
 
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Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Last Hour will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews will hide themselves behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the Gharqad tree will not say this, for it is the tree of the Jews.

http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=1660
 
predator_190 said:
Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Last Hour will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews will hide themselves behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the Gharqad tree will not say this, for it is the tree of the Jews.

http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=1660
Who is the author of this passage? What text is it from?
 
Carcano said:
Who is the author of this passage? What text is it from?
its from the koran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiyama

awm al-Qīyāmah (Arabic: يوم القيامة‎ ​ literally: "Day of the Resurrection") is the Arabic name for the Last Judgement. Belief in Qiyâmah is part of Aqidah and is a fundamental tenet of faith in Islam. The trials and tribulations of Qiyâmah are detailed in both the Qur'an and the Hadith, as well as in the commentaries of the Islamic expositors and scholarly authorities such as al-Ghazali, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Majah, Muhammad al-Bukhari, and Ibn Khuzaimah who explain them in detail. Every human, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is held accountable for his or her deeds and are judged by Allah accordingly (Qur'an 74.38). Al-Qiyâmah is the 75th sura of the Qur'an.

in the bottom there are links where i found this phrase.
 
Carcano said:
Are you sure its not from the Hadith? I can't find it in the Koran...chapter, verse?
or you are right its from the hadith-my mistake.

funny i even had to search in the hadith to find it :D
 
Carcano said:
Samcdkey: Can you tell me which texts are actually attributed to Mohammed, and which chapters describe the kind of government you outlined in the first few posts of this thread?

I've looked into this a bit and saw nothing but the legal writings of historical scholars, not Mohammed himself.

It was the form of government practised by Mohammed. For example the first Caliph after Mohammed's death was elected by the people. Of course, the second one wasn't which shows how poorly the concepts were understood.
http://www.islamic-council.org/lib/human-rights/Chapter-2-1-103-129/chapter-2-1-103-129.html

The speech made by Abu Bakr Al Siddiq after the Muslims had pledged allegiance to him as Caliph of the Muslims after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, blessings and peace be upon him, demonstrates this principle. He said : "O people I have been summoned to rule you and I am no better than you. If you see me acting justly, aid and assist me, and if you see me doing wrong, rectify me and guide me to do what is right. Obey me provided I obey God's commands in ruling you, but if I disobey the commands of God, I will not be entitled to your obedience".

In another speech Abu Bakr said : "If I am in the right, follow me, but if I swerve from righteousness rectify me".

`Omar ben Al Khattab, the Second Rightly Guided Caliph, said to his people "If you ever see any deviation from righteousness in my conduct, rectify me".

A man stood up and said "If we see any deviation from righteousness in your conduct, we will rectify it by the sword". `Omar ben Al Khattab was very pleased to see that the Muslims were aware of their rights and their duty to safeguard justice and righteousness in their state.

When some citizens of the state criticized Othman ben Affan - in certain matters, he said "I repent and will refrain from doing anything that the Muslims criticize and when I come down from the pulpit, let those who wish to express their opinion on any matter come to me, and by God if a slave refers to any mistake I may have made, I will accept his criticism and feel as humiliated a slave".

In order to confirm this sacred principle of freedom, God Almighty commanded the Prophet Muhammad, blessings and peace be upon him, not to be autocratic in matters that concerned the Muslims, and commanded him to consult the Muslims in certain matters that concerned them. This is mentioned in the following Quranic verse "It is part of the Mercy of God that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee so pass over (their faults), and ask for (God's) forgiveness for them ; and consult them ; in affairs (of moment). " 88

The Prophet, blessings and peace be upon him, accepted the unanimous opinion of his Companions even if he was not personally convinced by it. If his Companions' opinion was not unanimous, he agreed to the opinion of the majority as was the case in the Battle of Uhud when he was against going to battle, but he agreed to his Companions' demand to fight and his opinion proved to be correct, for the Muslims were defeated in this battle.

Although Muslim jurists debated political systems, the Qur’an itself did not specify a particular form of government. But it did identify a set of social and political values that are central to a Muslim polity. Three values are of particular importance: pursuing justice through social cooperation and mutual assistance (Qur’an 49:13; 11:119); establishing a non-autocratic, consultative method of governance; and institutionalizing mercy and compassion in social interactions (6:12, 54; 21:107; 27:77; 29:51; 45.20).

Upholding this very principle, the second Caliph Omar said: Where I do right, assist me; where I do wrong correct me.


I've edited bits from an article I found:
http://www.submission.org/democracy.html

Islam indicates the practice of democracy by focusing on 8 imperatives or criteria:

1. Rational empiricism

All our knowledge comes from experience with the confidence to apply reason to human relations. Truth is not a given but is subject to change requiring continuous reevaluation and verification. What may seem true today may be altered tomorrow with the input of additional information or by changes in circumstances. Applied to a democracy, all sides must be heard on any issue, or at least as many as possible, thereby allowing for free speech, publication, assembly and association.

A dogmatist believes he knows the truth with absolute certainty and will accuse anyone who opposes his version of the truth guilty of intellectual subversion. Therefore, the dogmatist will not inquire further into matters. The only input he will allow is that information which will strengthen his position. It is this certainty of knowledge that opens the door to fanatic sentiment.

And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.(You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. :) )17:36

2. Emphasis on the rights of the individual
Ebenstein and Fogelman contrast liberal democracy with both authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. The latter two view the individual as the servant of the state. The individual lives to serve the state, being only one small part of the whole with the "concept of citizenship as duty, discipline, and death for the state." The state is not to be questioned but is to be obeyed.

Locke first emphasized the rights of the individual when he wrote in his essays that the individual had the right to pursue life, liberty and property; and if the individual was not happy with the laws under which he was living, he should be free to remove himself to a place where such laws could not compel him into compliance. However, he also believed that if a government usurped the rights of the people, the people had the right to revolt and change the government. This thinking became the foundation for what was to become the American Declaration of Independence.

Anyone who emigrates in the cause of God will find on earth great bounties and richness. 4:100

Why should you not fight in the cause of God when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."


While the Quran speaks of emigrating and fighting in the cause of God, it may seem misleading in the context of politics. No specific mention of government is made. There are several possible explanations for this. One reason is that at the time Muhammad begin reciting the Quran, the Arabs were primarily tribal nomads. Government as twentieth century Americans know it, or as Locke knew it in seventeenth century England, did not exist for them. Another reason that government is not specifically mentioned would be that these passages do not refer only to governments, but also to any conditions that would impose unfair limitations upon an individual or groups of individuals, as within a family, the tribe, the community, or the larger nation state. The fact that the term government is not specifically used does not mean that these passages do not support the right to leave or to abolish the state. What it does imply is a broad application. Tyranny is still tyranny be it on the personal level between spouses or between the ruler and the ruled.

Did they not roam the earth, then use their minds to understand, and use their ears to hear? Indeed, the real blindness is not the blindness of the eyes, but the blindness of the hearts inside the chests. 22:46

The blindness of the hearts inside the chest is the metaphorical description of the faculty of reason, and failure to use it is an individual dilemma, although many individuals may be guilty of such failure.


3. Instrumental theory of the state

This is the view that the state is a mechanism to be used for ends higher than itself. In order to accept this theory, one must reject the concept of the state as the ultimate authority. One must also define ends higher than itself.

The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers. We then appointed you to establish the correct laws; you shall follow this, and do not follow the wishes of those who do not know. They cannot help you at all against God. It is the transgressors who ally themselves with one another, while God is the Lord of the righteous. This provides enlightenments for the people, and guidance, and mercy for those who are certain. 45:3,18-20


These verses support the premise that no earthly law is higher than God’s law. He taught them how to distinguish affirms that the individual must use his reason in discovering what is right and wrong.



4. Voluntarism
The following verse makes the point for freedom to associate with whomever the individual chooses.

You are not responsible for guiding anyone. God is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided). 2:272

Any community that believes will surely be rewarded for believing...Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers? 10:98,99

The state cannot turn evil into good or wrong into right solely because it possesses the means of physical coercion...in the classical liberal doctrine...the state is to step in only when the voluntary efforts of society fail."

O you who believe, you shall remain alert, and mobilize as individuals, or mobilize all together. 4:71




5. The law behind the law
This concept stems from the federal view of state and society in classical liberalism which considers society to be basically self-sufficient. The state is an essentially voluntary body with its authority being derived from the consent of the governed. Because classic liberalism has always adhered to the idea that the relations between state and society, between government and individual, are ultimately defined by a law higher than that of the state...the law is not the product of the state, but precedes it.

Do they own a share of the sovereignty? If they did, they would not give the people as much as a grain. 4:53


6. Emphasis on means

The state does not have the right to achieve it’s objectives by any means no matter how desirable the end may be. This relates back to the rational-humanist viewpoint in determining the use of political authority, where the individual uses his reason to determine what is right and wrong. The state cannot justifiably force an outcome through physical coercion just because it has the physical power to do so. Any ends achieved must be accomplished through due process.

O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe God, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, God takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then God is fully Cognizant of everything you do. 4:135



7. Discussion and consent in human relations

Basically this means lay all the cards on the table, discuss the variety of options available, and then compromise if necessary to settle any differences. As stated earlier, truth is not a given but is subject to change. Since it is doubtful that any one individual ever knows all there is to know on any one issue, a democratic society operates on the premise that all individuals have the right to be heard, all available views must be aired followed with the necessary discussion. The reality is such that total agreement among individuals is rare, if not impossible, but discussion and consent allows for an exchange of information and provides for new information to be considered.

It was mercy from God that you became compassionate towards them. Had you been harsh and mean-hearted, they would have abandoned you. Therefore, ...you shall consult them. Once you make a decision, carry out your plan, and trust in God. God loves those who trust in Him. 3:159

...Their affairs are decided after due consultation among themselves... 42:38



8. Basic equality of all human beings

This democratic doctrine is frequently misunderstood according to Ebenstein and Fogelman. People are not identical, but they have certain inalienable rights as human beings.

O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is omniscient, Cognizant. 49:13

O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or make fun of your names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.

O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Most Merciful. 49:11-12

You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. God does not like the arrogant showoffs. Walk humbly and lower your voice. 31:18-19


Our differences in color, culture, gender, skills and talents are blessings that are supposed to enrich our lives. In the course of two hundred or so years, we have abolished slavery, opened the doors of education and employment to both genders and people of all ethnicity. Furthermore, we are admonished to respect the privacy of individuals. Spying and entrapment, name-calling and other forms of social intolerance are denounced, as is suspicion without any basis.

What passes for Islam today is not reliance on the Quran alone. Centuries of myth, superstition and cultural traditions have crept into the practice of Islam, so that a strict religious dogma based on numerous volumes of theological interpretation apart from the Quran have been established as part and parcel of Islam.
 
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predator_190 said:
Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Last Hour will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews will hide themselves behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the Gharqad tree will not say this, for it is the tree of the Jews.

http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=1660

just in case you missed it :)
 
samcdkey said:
What passes for Islam today is not reliance on the Quran alone. Centuries of myth, superstition and cultural traditions have crept into the practice of Islam, so that a strict religious dogma based on numerous volumes of theological interpretation apart from the Quran have been established as part and parcel of Islam.


Just in case you can read and comprehend.
 
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