agnostics maybe.
but atheists reject what they don't know, and squeeze it forcefully into what they do know, so they end up knowing everything.
and when they are at their humblest, they know exactly the things they don't know!:facepalm:
Religion = arrogance.
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but atheists reject what they don't know, and squeeze it forcefully into what they do know, so they end up knowing everything.
and when they are at their humblest, they know exactly the things they don't know!:facepalm:
I've yet to encounter God's Law through direct experience. You mean the laws written in the bible? Surely they hold as much water as do the laws of any religious text. If I take what you're saying as genuine, I owe the same respect to the Muslim and the Jew.
What a pickle to be in...how can I choose (the right one)? I'd rather take a position of interest in the beliefs and texts of various religions, and the people involved. I'd rather take a position of knowing god through direct experience (for whatever that means), without having to adopt a particular religion and their particular book.
To say that I will be denied heaven & spend time in the furnace, for the above choices - you gotta admit, there's a slight flavor of arrogance to such an attitude. I realize you probably don't have arrogant intentions, but for someone looking in, it can appear otherwise.
I've only read of this Jesus fella in a book called the bible, and I've yet to have a direct encounter, which I'm most certainly open to. As for the 'arms wide open' of the crucified Jesus - well, I'll think of it as a nice story, rich with symbolism. I'm sure Jesus would rather I use the mind he so joyously created (in his image); make my own mind up & enjoy this life in a way of my choosing. If I trust you on one thing - that Jesus loves me: I'm sure I'll be just fine when the Reaper comes to take my hand.
That's right, it's your interpretation.
It appears you think your interpetation should trump all others.
Yes. Same as you can only know the right way of thinking about biology, for example, if you are a biologist.
It is impossible for outsiders to have the right grasp of a topic of study and practice.
Which is why it behooves for outsiders to not fret about something they don't actually have proper understanding of.
Here's the thing: You believe in eternal damnation (whether you are aware of this or not), but you do not believe in eternal heaven.
If you would really accept this life as all there is, then you'd have no concern over what some Christians, or anyone else, tells you about what happens after death. You'd shrug off their comments with an idle gesture and continued making the best of your life as a humble atheist.
Instead, you are posting in threads and talking about all those "arrogant religionists" and how they get to you.
Consider that sometimes love must be tough.
From yourdictionary.com: a disciplinary technique, as for a young person or a loved one, in which a seemingly harsh or unfeeling course of action is chosen deliberately over one demonstrating the tenderness or forbearance instinctively felt.
In other words, what will be best for you (and everyone else), given the fact you chose to 'go it alone'.
As Jesus Himself says: "Be it done unto you according to thy faith."
I accept that. But not from a deity. The God which created all existence, beetles and stars, the quantum world and strings and branes; all of creation by a being who resorts to human concepts like tough love, and rather confusingly: punishment.
Do you agree with concepts like eternal punishment? Don't you feel it an injustice to suffer the Muslim to hell because they walked a different path in this mortal life? I'm hesitant to say this, but: If you believe in such ideologies, without disagreement, can you really fault the OP for seeing arrogance in religious (& more specifically, Christian) people?
Because the gift of heaven is not accepted.
Precisely...totally counter-intuitive, but counter-intuitive to a mind that (again, according to Scripture) is not only finite, but hostile to the very Deity reaching out (alluding to the arms wide open concept) to him/her; and, if that wasn't enough, revealed to be in a state of 'disconnect' (the whole 'thing' of redemption is about God re-connecting with us) if you will, from Whom they were originally connected. That said, the very 'picture' you describe above (that you cannot accept) is a prime of example not only of tenderness and love, but tremendous humilty.
I have family members who have passed on, they gave no indication they were Christian...I loved them dearly. I am not happy about the implications regarding their current estate and in fact such notions disturb me greatly. However, I find a measure of comfort in recalling the words of Abraham: "shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" Indeed He shall; I defer to Him given Who He is, and, 'how'/what He knows.
As far as appearing arrogant, we all know appearances can be deceiving--case in point: Jesus in the manger.
Peace.
then how can you not accept that your claims in the OP (re: arrogance) are a product of fallacious reasoning: you are acknowledging that it is YOUR interpretation, and also acknowledging that there are OTHER interpretations. do you believe your interpretation to be the "correct" one somehow? is this not ARROGANT?
if you believe others' interpretations to, at least, be sufficiently like your own so as to demonstrate arrogance on their behalf, can you provide some evidence that would at least suggest that such is the case?
sure, i can provide some instances of such; but these are by no means representative of the convictions held by all the rest.
so similarly, just as you can maintain a position of greater security without being necessarily arrogant, so can a theist.
Case closed.
i will contend that life is meaningless at best, and torturous at worst, without communion.
I used to be a christian. For 21 years. I preached in church. Ran bible studies. Went door to door. Was baptized. Evangelized to people in public places. Went to bible college for over a year. Worked in a church for 6 months.
During my years of being a Christian I thought the exact same way as you guys. Seeing isn't believing with god, believing is seeing. But after all those years I realized that what I was believing in and seeing was only what I wanted to see or believe.
Eventually after learning more and more, taking philosophy/religion classes at uni, learning old testament history, new testament history, theology, and actually working in a church, I started to see all the contradictions and failures within Christian teachings. There had to be about 100 questions I asked in class at bible college that no teacher there knew the answers to. And these teaches had studied in colleges for at least 10 years, some more. There were so many problems with the bible. While I was there I saw another person quit bible college because he lost his faith after seeing all these problems. I followed shortly after. It was common for people to lose their faith after going to bible college, because for many it's the first time they critically look at their beliefs.
When you are a christian believer you make excuses for the problems with your belief. Things like: one gospel says Judas was hung, another said he fell to his death, so the excuse is that he was hung and then fell to his death and was scattered on the ground. You have the problem of theodicy with no adequate explanations (I've actually read christian books on theodicy that conclude that they just don't know). You have the problems with both calvinism and arminianism. You have the problem of Mithras and the other heroes that came before Christ that had the same story as Christ. You have the books in the bible with no known authors, matthew didn't write matthew, mark didn't write mark, etc... You have people like king David who God considered the best person to ever live, yet he committed power rape and adultery and then murdered the raped womans husband and then god's punishment for david was to kill the womans child. So this god of love of yours killed the child of a woman who had been raped and had her husband murdered.
It just all adds up, and eventually I hit the point where I couldn't accept the bullshit explanations and excuses that Christianity gives for all these inconsistencies and horrible teachings.
Only in ignorance or arrogance can Christian belief continue to survive.
Don't give me that bull crap about only being able to see god in the right way when you are a christian. I was 100% christian who prayed every day and deluded myself into thinking I had a relationship with god. But it was all lies which I told myself in order to fulfill my own human needs.
I've seen what it's like to be a christian. And I've also seen what it's like to open your eyes and see christianity for what it is. Lies.
By the way since leaving Christianity I've been so blessed, my life is now 100 times better than it was when I was a christian. I'm a better person, I give more to others, I do more with my life, I care more about other people, I have an awesome girlfriend who I love, I work hard, I'm in my 3rd year at university studying psychology (something that may actually help some people, rather than studying lies in the bible).
I can honestly say that I've been a christian, loved 'god' with all my heart, put him first, made jesus my life. And yet after all that I can now say it was all lies, and I hate it all with a passion.
During my years of being a Christian I thought the exact same way as you guys. Seeing isn't believing with god, believing is seeing. But after all those years I realized that what I was believing in and seeing was only what I wanted to see or believe.
Eventually after learning more and more, taking philosophy/religion classes at uni, learning old testament history, new testament history, theology, and actually working in a church, I started to see all the contradictions and failures within Christian teachings. There had to be about 100 questions I asked in class at bible college that no teacher there knew the answers to. And these teaches had studied in colleges for at least 10 years, some more. There were so many problems with the bible. While I was there I saw another person quit bible college because he lost his faith after seeing all these problems. I followed shortly after. It was common for people to lose their faith after going to bible college, because for many it's the first time they critically look at their beliefs.
When you are a christian believer you make excuses for the problems with your belief. Things like: one gospel says Judas was hung, another said he fell to his death, so the excuse is that he was hung and then fell to his death and was scattered on the ground. You have the problem of theodicy with no adequate explanations (I've actually read christian books on theodicy that conclude that they just don't know). You have the problems with both calvinism and arminianism. You have the problem of Mithras and the other heroes that came before Christ that had the same story as Christ. You have the books in the bible with no known authors, matthew didn't write matthew, mark didn't write mark, etc... You have people like king David who God considered the best person to ever live, yet he committed power rape and adultery and then murdered the raped womans husband and then god's punishment for david was to kill the womans child. So this god of love of yours killed the child of a woman who had been raped and had her husband murdered.
It just all adds up, and eventually I hit the point where I couldn't accept the bullshit explanations and excuses that Christianity gives for all these inconsistencies and horrible teachings.
Only in ignorance or arrogance can Christian belief continue to survive.
Don't give me that bull crap about only being able to see god in the right way when you are a christian. I was 100% christian who prayed every day and deluded myself into thinking I had a relationship with god. But it was all lies which I told myself in order to fulfill my own human needs.
I've seen what it's like to be a christian. And I've also seen what it's like to open your eyes and see christianity for what it is. Lies.
By the way since leaving Christianity I've been so blessed, my life is now 100 times better than it was when I was a christian. I'm a better person, I give more to others, I do more with my life, I care more about other people, I have an awesome girlfriend who I love, I work hard, I'm in my 3rd year at university studying psychology (something that may actually help some people, rather than studying lies in the bible).
I can honestly say that I've been a christian, loved 'god' with all my heart, put him first, made jesus my life. And yet after all that I can now say it was all lies, and I hate it all with a passion.
@ answers: thank you for that post, it was interesting to get some context and perspective.
from my posts in this thread at least, you might suspect me to either be christian, or of some other "faith." i'm neither christian, nor would i describe myself as a theist (though some might--i can't honestly describe myself as atheist or agnostic, given the comprehensive definitions of either).
i certainly won't argue with you that there are countless christians who are inconsistent, hypocritical, ignorant, and/or arrogant with respect to their beliefs and practices--especially, within the u.s. i don't know where you are, or where you have traveled, but in the u.s. most christians do tend to be ... objectionable in so many respects; BUT, this is by no means true of all christians, all followers of any abrahamic tradition, or all "religious" people in general. EDIT: i will add that when i say i find most objectionable, i am speaking comprehensively--my issues with them may or may not have anything to do with their professed beliefs.
likewise, all of these objectionable qualities which you find amongst christians, i find amongst non-believers and atheists as well. such is human nature, and i do not believe that one can really even establish correlation between the problems you've cited (excepting those which are, necessarily, specific to followers of christianity) and religion. well, one can find correlation between anything, but i am referring to a strong and persuasive argument.
from my posts in this thread at least, you might suspect me to either be christian, or of some other "faith." i'm neither christian, nor would i describe myself as a theist (though some might--i can't honestly describe myself as atheist or agnostic, given the comprehensive definitions of either).
i certainly won't argue with you that there are countless christians who are inconsistent, hypocritical, ignorant, and/or arrogant with respect to their beliefs and practices--especially, within the u.s. i don't know where you are, or where you have traveled, but in the u.s. most christians do tend to be ... objectionable in so many respects; BUT, this is by no means true of all christians, all followers of any abrahamic tradition, or all "religious" people in general. EDIT: i will add that when i say i find most objectionable, i am speaking comprehensively--my issues with them may or may not have anything to do with their professed beliefs.
likewise, all of these objectionable qualities which you find amongst christians, i find amongst non-believers and atheists as well. such is human nature, and i do not believe that one can really even establish correlation between the problems you've cited (excepting those which are, necessarily, specific to followers of christianity) and religion. well, one can find correlation between anything, but i am referring to a strong and persuasive argument.
Parmalee I haven't replied to your previous posts because they were abusive and you were obviously angry while you were swearing at me etc...
But you seem to have calmed down now.
So I'll reply to your post.
My problem with Christianity in regards to what you wrote, is that although they have the objectionable qualities which you find amongst all humanity, they claim still to somehow be better. They say it's not arrogance because god is the one who has forgiven them and made them clean, but that doesn't change the fact that they now see themselves as forgiven children of god and every body else as unforgiven children of the devil. This fundamental belief leads to an arrogant outlook on others. Some don't let their belief affect their outlook on others, but in my experience a great majority of christians see themselves as better than non-christians. For example in bible college a lot of other christians being trained as preachers believed that theirs was the highest calling anyone could have, that their job was the most important. For me I see that belief as feeding off of a person's arrogance.
This brings up the other problem I have with Christian belief, that it appeals to a person's arrogance/idea of entitlement. It appeals to that core human trait while at the same time condeming it as a sin.
I just think Christian belief is really trying to eat its cake and have it too.
Again this is the way I interpret the beliefs and the mechanisms behind them. I don't expect others to agree.
But you seem to have calmed down now.
So I'll reply to your post.
My problem with Christianity in regards to what you wrote, is that although they have the objectionable qualities which you find amongst all humanity, they claim still to somehow be better. They say it's not arrogance because god is the one who has forgiven them and made them clean, but that doesn't change the fact that they now see themselves as forgiven children of god and every body else as unforgiven children of the devil. This fundamental belief leads to an arrogant outlook on others. Some don't let their belief affect their outlook on others, but in my experience a great majority of christians see themselves as better than non-christians. For example in bible college a lot of other christians being trained as preachers believed that theirs was the highest calling anyone could have, that their job was the most important. For me I see that belief as feeding off of a person's arrogance.
This brings up the other problem I have with Christian belief, that it appeals to a person's arrogance/idea of entitlement. It appeals to that core human trait while at the same time condeming it as a sin.
I just think Christian belief is really trying to eat its cake and have it too.
Again this is the way I interpret the beliefs and the mechanisms behind them. I don't expect others to agree.
my posts were extremely critical, but hardly abusive--people here tend not to sugar-coat their criticism, and i have very little patience with posts that display fallacious reasoning, mis-employment of terminology (to put it kindly), and gross assumptions. your previous post (two posts up) did not.
the problem is, there are far too many people posting in the, uh, non-science subforums (an most especially, the philosophy subforum) whose prose is utterly incomprehensible; and while there may be a point there, one is not to expect the reader to make sense, eke out the intended meaning, or read the mind of the poster in question.
still, hubris and a tendency towards exceptionalism (a sort of narcissism, i suppose) is very much human nature, and is to be found amongst all sorts--do you not see the same attitude evinced by many atheists here?
likewise, hypocrisy is also very much a human quality as well. consider all the science-minded types who consistently make appeals to metaphysical thinking (of which they seem completely oblivious), appeals to authority, and commit the grievous offense of mistaking having no reason to believe for having every reason to disbelieve.
as far as christianity specifically is concerned--and i'll assume protestant christianity--i have certainly encountered the attitudes you describe throughout the u.s., but most especially in the bible belt regions--from the southeast to the northernmost plains states. i've traveled a good part of the world, a few continents and dozens of countries, and the christians i've encountered in europe--especially eastern europe, for instance, do not display these attitudes nearly so much. in asia and the middle east, i've encountered a little of both; for many of the christians i've encountered in these parts of the world are missionaries, and such ugly qualities inevitably surface in those aiming to convert.
but still, like i've said: i've encountered unsavory qualities amongst all sorts and i really can't generalize (one exception being americans: attitudes of arrogance and entitlement are super-sized amongst americans, along with their waistlines--and it's irrespective of their professed beliefs or lack thereof). whatever the "distinction" an individual clings to, from this emerges arrogance, hypocrisy, and entitlement--actually, if i were to make another generalization, i would suggest that such do tend to be attributes of the bourgeoisie.
answers..
nice post..
i can now appreciate your history,and know now you are not just another god hating atheist..
some of my points still stand though..
the bible was written by man therefore susceptible to mans own propesity for making mistakes..
most religious leaders still add their own flavor to the mix..
no matter what man says i will still believe in god, my foundation for my belief is not man made..it is experiance..
my biggest point is..
god is what you make him..no more..no less..
nice post..
i can now appreciate your history,and know now you are not just another god hating atheist..
some of my points still stand though..
the bible was written by man therefore susceptible to mans own propesity for making mistakes..
most religious leaders still add their own flavor to the mix..
no matter what man says i will still believe in god, my foundation for my belief is not man made..it is experiance..
my biggest point is..
god is what you make him..no more..no less..
Nothing, and I mean nothing, could be closer to the truth.
Agreed.
People make god whoever they want him/her to be. That's why they can have such a strong relationship with him.
A relationship is created when you can relate to someone. When you make god what you want, you make him someone you can relate to 100%. Leading to that very strong connection that is incredibly hard to break through rational reasoning.