Religion = arrogance.

[Doreen]

Doreen. Christians believe that god has chosen them for salvation. But you don't have to answer my question if you don't want to.

I believe you are incorrect. Christians believe that they choose to come to God via Jesus. I never hear Christians refer to themselves as the chosen people. Your question did not make sense.

You did not respond to my point about God creating humans and you assumption that this choice must have come from dissatisfaction. I can see no reason to assume this. It is not a common Christian theological position. Do you have some access to God's emotional state before creation?

 

[Doreen]

Doreen I do like however how you just applied one of the beliefs I labled as arrogant to a religion besides Christianity. Demonstrating that these beliefs do generalize to other religions.

It was not one of the points in the OP which really has very little to do with any religion but Christianity. The first more general assumption about what God's reason for creating humans does not fit any doctrine I know, though perhaps some pagan group has the one you mentioned.

My ASKING if you were referring to Jews does not demonstrate anything, answers.

 

[Doreen]

Don't be sillier.
I take exception to this. I certainly define myself.
Alas, it's also true that we each define ourselves, so the point is moot.

Well, she was mocking the stance that atheism is supposed to be a lack of a stance. A lack of definition. I think you will find that SAM thinks atheists define both themselves and others.

 

[Doreen]

How about "Ha ha I'm going to Heaven to live forever and you're not"?

That is assuming that is the attitude. Hardly a Christian one, though I certainly agree that there are Christians with this attitude, but there is little scriptural support for the attitude and much that indicates that Jesus, for example, would have thought it crass at the least.

 

[786]

Agnostics and athiests' beliefs do not involve any arrogant puffing up of themselves. They simply humbly believe that they exist, and they do the best they can with their lives. They don't sensationalize their existance, they accept it.

But in the other thread you basically said that existence was proof but not scientific- yet you 'puff' around that you're somehow smarter because of this 'scientific' approach you have to understanding things then how can your existence be something you accept which is unscientific (as per your claim)- :shrug:


Peace be unto you

 

[Doreen]

At the same time though, I think the religious ppl are just concluding what their beliefs naturally allude to. That they are chosen, that others are not, therefore they must be better.

Some Christians are like this, some are not. The same would hold true for many religions and also, of course, atheists.

Most Christians I have met tend to NOT assume they are automatically on the way to Heaven and are concerend about their own state more that feeling better than other people. To be fair though, I would not go near the ones who are like YOU ARE ASSUMING ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE MUST BE LIKE.

It is not a must and arrogance seems rather widely distributed throughout humanity.

Generalizing negatively about people can be one form of this.

By rights Christians should be the most modest, because the bible teaches that God chooses the most sinful to glorify his name. So a Christian should really be thinking 'I'm way worse than any atheist because God chose me rather than them'.

This really makes no sense at all. I am not sure you know very much about Christianity and certainly not about religions in general.

But it's hard to really say anything concretely about the beliefs in the bible, whether they are arrogant or not,

So you found writing the OP hard, I can then conclude.

Like you could say Christians think they are better because in Psalms it teaches that a righteous man will be blessed by God, so they therefore think that they will be blessed more than other people because they are better/more righteous than non-believers.

This also made no sense but it is a single error so I will go into it. If you are correct, a righeous man will be blessed by God. IOW a person who is very moral. This is a separate issue from belief. One can believe and not be righteous.

So it's just so hard to make any conclusions with it all.

So why did you?

 

[Doreen]

The theologians at the baptist bible college I went to taught that God chose those who would be saved. That's all just Calvanism vs arminianism. There's no winner in that debate though because the bible contradicts itself too much on the issue.

So on this idea of chosen you were thinking of Calvinists. Why did you generalize? I also do not think Calvinists are told they can assume they are one of the chosen, or have I missed something? does their theology include the idea that every Calvinist is one of the chosen? If not, what are you talking about? How could they walk around arrogantly if they do not know?

I mean of course, they could be arrogant, since this is human trait that seems to appear in every group, but is it really supported in Calvinism?

 

[glaucon]

you're too kind, glaucon--you could have identified at least a few other problems with the thread OP.

ta.

I was holding back.
The OP is brutally flawed, from the beginning...

Well, she was mocking the stance that atheism is supposed to be a lack of a stance. A lack of definition. I think you will find that SAM thinks atheists define both themselves and others.

Oh, fear not; SAM and I have some knowledge of each others' POV...

 

[answers]

I believe you are incorrect. Christians believe that they choose to come to God via Jesus. I never hear Christians refer to themselves as the chosen people. Your question did not make sense.

You did not respond to my point about God creating humans and you assumption that this choice must have come from dissatisfaction. I can see no reason to assume this. It is not a common Christian theological position. Do you have some access to God's emotional state before creation?

It's my interpretation.

Can you please tell me why you think God created humans?

 

[answers]

That is assuming that is the attitude. Hardly a Christian one, though I certainly agree that there are Christians with this attitude, but there is little scriptural support for the attitude and much that indicates that Jesus, for example, would have thought it crass at the least.

Agreed. If christians were more christ like this attitude wouldn't exist.

 

[answers]

This really makes no sense at all. I am not sure you know very much about Christianity and certainly not about religions in general.

So you found writing the OP hard, I can then conclude.
This also made no sense but it is a single error so I will go into it. If you are correct, a righeous man will be blessed by God. IOW a person who is very moral. This is a separate issue from belief. One can believe and not be righteous.
So why did you?

Christianity teaches that through forgiveness believers are made righteous.

"By rights Christians should be the most modest, because the bible teaches that God chooses the most sinful to glorify his name. So a Christian should really be thinking 'I'm way worse than any atheist because God chose me rather than them'. "

Now you say that doesn't make sense and that I don't know what I'm talking about right?

Mark 1:17

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Romans 5:20

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,


So I said that god chooses the most sinful to glofigy his name. The first verse here shows that god chooses the sick. The next verse says that the sicker someone is, the more grace is given.

There is another verse I think by paul that ties the two together to say, that sins were allowed to abound in order to more fully show the grace of god to his glory.

I'll try and find it for you.

 

[answers]

So on this idea of chosen you were thinking of Calvinists. Why did you generalize? I also do not think Calvinists are told they can assume they are one of the chosen, or have I missed something? does their theology include the idea that every Calvinist is one of the chosen? If not, what are you talking about? How could they walk around arrogantly if they do not know?

I mean of course, they could be arrogant, since this is human trait that seems to appear in every group, but is it really supported in Calvinism?

You are everywhere with your questioning. Learn about Calvinism and then get back to me with a coherent question.

Also arminianism is arrogant in itself anyway. I wrote the calvinistic standpoint because I think it is the most supported by the bible.

Arminianism involves Jesus plus the believer's choice for salvation. Calvinism is more humble because it says that it's 100% Jesus, he chose me, he did the work, I am just blessed.

Arminianism teaches that, yeah Jesus offers me salvation but it's up to my choice whether or not I am saved. So I thank God for Jesus, but I also thank myself for being so smart that I made the right choice. = arrogance.

 

[earth]

I believe you are incorrect. Christians believe that they choose to come to God via Jesus. I never hear Christians refer to themselves as the chosen people. Your question did not make sense.

I take it your not a practicing Christian.

Colossians 3:12 - NASB
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2 Timothy 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


Christians do think they were chosen and it's their fate.

 

[Doreen]

[Christianity teaches that through forgiveness believers are made righteous.

"By rights Christians should be the most modest, because the bible teaches that God chooses the most sinful to glorify his name. So a Christian should really be thinking 'I'm way worse than any atheist because God chose me rather than them'. "

Now you say that doesn't make sense and that I don't know what I'm talking about right?

Yes.

Mark 1:17

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

And why do you think Jesus was 'calling' the sinners?

Romans 5:20

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

I don't think you understand the Christian idea of grace.

So I said that god chooses the most sinful to glofigy his name.

I am no expert in Christian texts, but you certainly haven't shown me anythign that says this.

 

[glaucon]

Christianity teaches that through forgiveness believers are made righteous.

"By rights Christians should be the most modest, because the bible teaches that God chooses the most sinful to glorify his name. So a Christian should really be thinking 'I'm way worse than any atheist because God chose me rather than them'. "

Now you say that doesn't make sense and that I don't know what I'm talking about right?

Mark 1:17

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Romans 5:20

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,


So I said that god chooses the most sinful to glofigy his name. The first verse here shows that god chooses the sick. The next verse says that the sicker someone is, the more grace is given.

There is another verse I think by paul that ties the two together to say, that sins were allowed to abound in order to more fully show the grace of god to his glory.

I'll try and find it for you.

You do realize that all of this is fallacious reasoning a la ad verecundiam right?

 

[Doreen]

I take it your not a practicing Christian.

That is correct.

Colossians 3:12 - NASB
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2 Timothy 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


Christians do think they were chosen and it's their fate.

I actually think most Christians do not think this. And there is enough in the Bible to support the notion that one must choose to find one's way to God via Jesus. Some Christians only give this lip service, but it a majority concept. People actively choose to be born again. People ask Jesus to come into their hearts and forgive their sins. People ask regularly to be forgiven for their sins, to help them to be good Christians. And so on.

I have no disagreement with the idea that the Bible, especially both testements taken as a whole, is a contradictory text. But I do not think it is clear that the Calvinist predestination end of things is how most Christians view things.

They certainly tried to offer - often in horrible ways - the people's of the new world the choice of Christianity. If everyone was predestined why is Christianity such a conversion, missionary religion. Why to constant reminder of free will and not choosing to go Satan's way. Anyone can become a Christian and many Christians actively encourage them to make this choice.

Answers is generalizing poorly and offensively about all religious people and what he is saying does not even cover all Christians.

Do you agree with me on this or do you think the OP is rational?

 

[Doreen]

Agreed. If christians were more christ like this attitude wouldn't exist.

So then it is hardly a given that Christians should be arrogant. Yet your OP is making the claim that they must be given their scriptures and ideas. Clearly you are incorrect either here or in the OP. Which is it?

 

[Doreen]

It's my interpretation.

Which means it may have no connection to anyone else's. Hence the OP is based on your personal ideas of Christianity, which you use to generalize about all religions. Do you think this is a moral approach to discussion?

 

[Doreen]

You are everywhere with your questioning.

You are everywhere with unfounded assertions and misinterpretations.

Learn about Calvinism and then get back to me with a coherent question.

My question was coherent. You generalized about Christians while using a particular segment of the Christian population's ideas. In this case Calvinist ideas.

Also arminianism is arrogant in itself anyway. I wrote the calvinistic standpoint because I think it is the most supported by the bible.

Arminianism involves Jesus plus the believer's choice for salvation. Calvinism is more humble because it says that it's 100% Jesus, he chose me, he did the work, I am just blessed.

You do see how you are contradicting yourself. Now it is humble to be chosen. Before it was arrogant.

Arminianism teaches that, yeah Jesus offers me salvation but it's up to my choice whether or not I am saved. So I thank God for Jesus, but I also thank myself for being so smart that I made the right choice. = arrogance.

You are making up an attitude and asserting it logically follows. It does not. One does not have to be arrogant in this situation. Do you always feel arrogant when you make a choice you are glad you made? I don't.

 

[answers]

Doreen

Lol I'm not allowed to interpret the bible but every single other christian is?

Or am I just not allowed to interpret the bible in a way that you don't agree with?