Religion = arrogance.

Doreen. Christians believe that god has chosen them for salvation. But you don't have to answer my question if you don't want to.
 
Doreen I do like however how you just applied one of the beliefs I labled as arrogant to a religion besides Christianity. Demonstrating that these beliefs do generalize to other religions.
 
answers said:
NMS

So you are saying that religion appeals to the arrogance which is general to all mankind?
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i am saying the values that are attributed to believers are inherant in ALL ppl,to stereotype it to just believers is like saying all blacks are murderers just because some of them have killed..

now religion comes along and says that this book of theirs has ALL the answers..which leads a person to believe he has only to study this one book to be an expert in all things god.(do you really think god taught us all we need to know in just one book?)

(that last part really didn't have anything to do with your question..i was trying to associate a validity to your question)
 
NMSquirrel said:
i am saying the values that are attributed to believers are inherant in ALL ppl,to stereotype it to just believers is like saying all blacks are murderers just because some of them have killed..

now religion comes along and says that this book of theirs has ALL the answers..which leads a person to believe he has only to study this one book to be an expert in all things god.(do you really think god taught us all we need to know in just one book?)

(that last part really didn't have anything to do with your question..i was trying to associate a validity to your question)
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Okay that's fine. But Christianity states that all humans share a sinful nature. Christianity also teaches that arrogance is at the heart of sin (e.g it was due to lucifers arrogance that he rebelled against god etc...).

What I think is really interesting from what you have said, is that it suggests that Christian beliefs appeal to the apparant sinful nature and arrogance that is supposed to be the downfall of humanity.

Makes me wonder about Christianity, if in order to be believed it uses the qualities of humanity that it at the same time condems.
 
answers said:
Okay that's fine. But Christianity states that all humans share a sinful nature. Christianity also teaches that arrogance is at the heart of sin (e.g it was due to lucifers arrogance that he rebelled against god etc...).

What I think is really interesting from what you have said, is that it suggests that Christian beliefs appeal to the apparant sinful nature and arrogance that is supposed to be the downfall of humanity.

Makes me wonder about Christianity, if in order to be believed it uses the qualities of humanity that it at the same time condems.
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see now i don't have any problem with what you just said...

to me..sin is just another way of saying we are not perfect..
to admit you are a sinner is just saying you are just as suceptible to your own humanity.
agreed, religion tends to demonize sin,and condem any who are guilty of it..now yes this is very contradictory as they themselves are human and as such are guilty of sin themselves..the arrogance you express, is them saying they do not sin..in this you are correct..if you are human you are imperfect therefore you are a sinner.. to deny such would be considered arrogent..

what most ppl miss is the jesus part..he was put here to tell us that we have hope, he says that even though we are sinners, we are forgiven..we do not have to be condemed..

so again..its not gods fault that religion screws it up..

and not to pick nits..but i believe lucifer had gods permission to rebel..
 
answers said:
Doreen. Christians believe that god has chosen them for salvation. But you don't have to answer my question if you don't want to.
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uh, maybe you could review a wiki entry or something before you post a thread--or post anything, for that matter; because frankly, you talk ZERO FUCKING SENSE. you post fallacies, nonsensical statements, and gross assumptions (your OWN, that is) and then you expect people to respond to your seriously.--are you fucking kidding me?! when you post this sort of nonsense, you're going to get a lot of snarky comments. period.

learn to live with it, or better yet--learn something (or SOME thing).
 
glaucon said:
Don't be sillier.
I take exception to this. I certainly define myself.
Alas, it's also true that we each define ourselves, so the point is moot.

Kind of like the thread topic itself is. I'm generally not the first person to jump to the defense of religion [big surprise here for some of you folk...lol], but the OP here is making a fallacious correlation. The quality of being arrogant has little to do with the nature of the object of that arrogance. Any person can be arrogant, for whatever reason they choose.
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you're too kind, glaucon--you could have identified at least a few other problems with the thread OP.
 
answers said:
I know what you guys are saying. But I really think it's worth thinking twice about.

These religions make a huge deal about their followers. That they are special, better than non-believers, will be rewarded with eternal life in glory.

There are a lot of beliefs there which you have to have on some level a sense of arrogance to accept.

I'm not even sure if it's a conscious level.

It's just in their nature for believers to think that they deserve more than this life.
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I'm not sure I follow.

How does the prospect of (belief in) future rewards make one arrogant by necessity?

For instance suppose I come from a modest background and I get possessed of the idea that if I study hard and work diligently, I will improve my lot.

How does that make me (necessarily) arrogant?
 
parmalee said:
uh, maybe you could review a wiki entry or something before you post a thread--or post anything, for that matter; because frankly, you talk ZERO FUCKING SENSE. you post fallacies, nonsensical statements, and gross assumptions (your OWN, that is) and then you expect people to respond to your seriously.--are you fucking kidding me?! when you post this sort of nonsense, you're going to get a lot of snarky comments. period.

learn to live with it, or better yet--learn something (or SOME thing).
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and this post is supposed to convince them otherwise????
 
lightgigantic said:
so whenever you find someone in a worse situation than yourself, your immediate reaction is to ridicule them for their misfortune?
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Is that what I said I do?
Nope, I gave an example of how belief in a (particular) reward can engender arrogance.
 
Dywyddyr said:
How about "Ha ha I'm going to Heaven to live forever and you're not"?
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I have actually had Christians pretty much say that to me.

When pushed I really do believe Christians think they are better than non-believers, they have the 'we are the chosen children of god' mentality.

The religious people on here can deny it, but I've seen it many times.
 
NMSquirrel said:
and this post is supposed to convince them otherwise????
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do you mean him or them? probably him, but if them: frankly, i couldn't care less if people post snarky concepts.

if him: also frankly, i couldn't care less--but seriously, look at the past few threads started by answers in this subforum and carefully read the OPs. do they honestly make any fucking sense to YOU, cuz they sure as hell don't to me. yeah, i'm kind of a stickler for clarity (in spite of being an obscurantist by nature)--so when the premises of the OP are such as they are; well, what can one expect?


EDIT: ah, i see you emphasized the "expect to take you seriously part," so you probably mean them: again, review the OP--how is one to answer that?

it's like me posting this as an OP:

horses are, in fact, cats.
and rabbits are, in fact, the moon.
so, what say you?

so, can you answer that one? no. well, that's good--cuz it doesn't make any fucking sense, and neither do answers' OPs of the past few threads.

just telling it like it is.
 
answers said:
I have actually had Christians pretty much say that to me.

When pushed I really do believe Christians think they are better than non-believers, they have the 'we are the chosen children of god' mentality.

The religious people on here can deny it, but I've seen it many times.
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this is why i do not defend religious ppl..
they think their sh*t don't stink..
we are ALL sinners..not just the unbelievers...
 
parmalee said:
do you mean him or them? probably him, but if them: frankly, i couldn't care less if people post snarky concepts.

if him: also frankly, i couldn't care less--but seriously, look at the past few threads started by answers in this subforum and carefully read the OPs. do they honestly make any fucking sense to YOU, cuz they sure as hell don't to me. yeah, i'm kind of a stickler for clarity (in spite of being an obscurantist by nature)--so when the premises of the OP are such as they are; well, what can one expect?


EDIT: ah, i see you emphasized the "expect to take you seriously part," so you probably mean them: again, review the OP--how is one to answer that?

it's like me posting this as an OP:

horses are, in fact, cats.
and rabbits are, in fact, the moon.
so, what say you?

so, can you answer that one? no. well, that's good--cuz it doesn't make any fucking sense, and neither do answers' OPs of the past few threads.

just telling it like it is.
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you assume everyone can be clear..
sometimes you have to read between the lines to figure out what someone is asking/saying..
just cause you don't understand what i am saying does not mean i don't..
some ppl know what they want to ask/say and think they are being clear..IE what does 'cool' mean?
 
NMSquirrel

"this is why i do not defend religious ppl..
they think their sh*t don't stink..
we are ALL sinners..not just the unbelievers"
----------

I really respect that.

At the same time though, I think the religious ppl are just concluding what their beliefs naturally allude to. That they are chosen, that others are not, therefore they must be better.

But there are lots of dynamics to it.

By rights Christians should be the most modest, because the bible teaches that God chooses the most sinful to glorify his name. So a Christian should really be thinking 'I'm way worse than any atheist because God chose me rather than them'.

But I don't think any Christian actually thinks like that.

But it's hard to really say anything concretely about the beliefs in the bible, whether they are arrogant or not, because so many things taught in the bible contradict each other.

Like you could say Christians think they are better because in Psalms it teaches that a righteous man will be blessed by God, so they therefore think that they will be blessed more than other people because they are better/more righteous than non-believers. But then in the new testament it is taught that the rich wicked people prosper while the true believers go through hardship.

So it's just so hard to make any conclusions with it all.
 
NMSquirrel said:
you assume everyone can be clear..
sometimes you have to read between the lines to figure out what someone is asking/saying..
just cause you don't understand what i am saying does not mean i don't..
some ppl know what they want to ask/say and think they are being clear..IE what does 'cool' mean?
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trust me, i'm severely epileptic and am more than familiar with being completely incapacitated with respect to "being clear." still, i am personally of the opinion that answers is more than capable of clarity; rather, he is posting stuff with the intention of being inflammatory. (yeah, i'm presuming to know another's mind here, but...let's just say i strongly suspect this is the case.)
 
answers said:
NMSquirrel

"this is why i do not defend religious ppl..
they think their sh*t don't stink..
we are ALL sinners..not just the unbelievers"
----------

I really respect that.

At the same time though, I think the religious ppl are just concluding what their beliefs naturally allude to. That they are chosen, that others are not, therefore they must be better.

But there are lots of dynamics to it.

By rights Christians should be the most modest, because the bible teaches that God chooses the most sinful to glorify his name. So a Christian should really be thinking 'I'm way worse than any atheist because God chose me rather than them'.

But I don't think any Christian actually thinks like that.

But it's hard to really say anything concretely about the beliefs in the bible, whether they are arrogant or not, because so many things taught in the bible contradict each other.

Like you could say Christians think they are better because in Psalms it teaches that a righteous man will be blessed by God, so they therefore think that they will be blessed more than other people because they are better/more righteous than non-believers. But then in the new testament it is taught that the rich wicked people prosper while the true believers go through hardship.

So it's just so hard to make any conclusions with it all.
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actually..it is not the believer who is 'chosen'
it is the believer who 'chooses'...
god does not choose any individual..the individual chooses to believe, he chooses to listen to god..

omg..that is one of those words to say over and over again makes it look wierd...chooses..chooses..chooses..doesn't look right..sounds like a warped train...i must be getting tired...
 
The theologians at the baptist bible college I went to taught that God chose those who would be saved. That's all just Calvanism vs arminianism. There's no winner in that debate though because the bible contradicts itself too much on the issue.
 
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