re-EVOL-ve

[786]

So what? What's your point then?

So if everything is meaningless then blowing up all the children in the world, per Atheism, is just as meaningless as saving all the children in the world. One who realizes this can do whatever the hell they want and it is still meaningless-

Peace be unto you

 

[spidergoat]

So tell me, why don't atheists blow up their children? Perhaps because they love them? Love is inherent, it isn't learned from a book.


We CAN do whatever we want. That is freedom. But we have to accept the consequences. Acting violent has consequences in this life. Religious people can also do whatever they want, they just have to accept the consequences. So there is no real difference. If there were a difference, then atheists would be disproportionally represented in prisons. In fact, the prison atheist population is far lower than the proportion of atheists in society in general.

Again, a larger point is that the social purpose of a religion has nothing to do with it's ultimate truth. Even if mythology makes people act better, they would still merely be following a mythology. The religion of some primitive people enforces social and even ecological order, but that doesn't mean it's right and that Christianity, for example, is wrong.

If your complaint is that atheism does not offer a stabilizing force for society, you are correct. That is why there are several systems and ideologies that do serve that purpose which are compatible with atheism. Democracy is one of them, secular humanism, socialism, even communism or fascism can serve the same purpose. Communism in particular achieved a kind of religious following. The advantage of secular institutions are that they can be questioned.

 

[Gustav]

Theism places an inherent meaning in life, while Atheism takes life inherently meaningless.

wrong
the former has a god in the driver's seat, the latter, us
it is also just sad that you imply that one cannot figure out the right and moral thing to do without some alleged holy book providing the template

is that the predicament you find yourself in? an innate savagery tempered only by scripture?

why project your personal failings on to the rest of humanity?
are you that much of an asshole?

 

[786]

So tell me, why don't atheists blow up their children? Perhaps because they love them? Love is inherent, it isn't learned from a book.

I agree you don't need a book to love.... but the truth of the matter is that your love for your children is meaningless.... Morals, Ethics, Feelings, Emotions are all meaningless.

Atheism makes everything allowed- the discussion is not that YOU do something bad- but that everything is equivalent as a fundamental truth.

If someone murders, rapes, steals- Atheism sees it all as meaningless- why do you care? Oh because we have morals- but those morals are equally meaningless-

Fundamentally-

One who feeds his children is on par with one who abuses them.
One who marries someone they love is on par with one who rapes a woman
One who respects elders is on par with one who beats them
One who murdered is on par with one who is murdered

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

wrong
the former has a god in the driver's seat, the latter, us

You are utterly wrong- the fact that you are in the driving seat still makes everything meaningless.

If Theism is correct- then you still have a continuation of your life and meaning to it- there is the after-life. So having God in the driver seat was meaningful

it is also just sad that you imply that one cannot figure out the right and moral thing to do without some alleged holy book providing the template

I did not imply this.. as I clearly stated that Atheism makes even those morals meaningless... Its not that you can figure out right and wrong- but that its just as meaningless.

is that the predicament you find yourself in? an innate savagery tempered only by scrpture?

No...... I'm only pointing out that savagery or no savagery are equally meaningless in Atheism.

Peace be unto you

 

[iceaura]

Since the world is a result of chance events in the universe, as the atheists claim,

"They" don't.

Anything prescribed by Atheism is just as meaningless because everything is meaningless! So you don't really even need to follow any 'moral fibers' - if there are any that Atheism prescribes - because the fundamental truth is that you are all meaningless biodegradable junk .

The only people who think that without their deity giving us meaning we would all be just meaningless biodegradable junk are theists with poor educations. No one else would take a deity that seriously in that way.

But if you understand that the Universe is meaningless- all of you and any all you make is just as meaningless

The three statements there do not follow from each other - their meaning and accuracy is independent of each other's.

 

[786]

"They" don't.

The universe is without purpose..... if the universe has a purpose please let me know?

The only people who think that without their deity giving us meaning we would all be just meaningless biodegradable junk are theists with poor educations. No one else would take a deity that seriously in that way.

I don't think I made the claim...you can have personal meaning in life.... but in reality everything you do is meaningless.. Unless you can answer the above question.

The three statements there do not follow from each other - their meaning and accuracy is independent of each other's.

They are independent only to the point you are alive-giving yourself your own meaning- considering that you are basically the same thing, a part of the universe which has no purpose- Your existence is just as meaningless as the universe as a whole.

Peace be unto you

 

[spidergoat]

you can have personal meaning in life.... but in reality everything you do is meaningless...

I think you understand it now. But personal meaning is all we need. The ultimate is beyond us just as the ultimate nature of God is beyond us. To think otherwise is pure arrogance.

 

[786]

If your complaint is that atheism does not offer a stabilizing force for society, you are correct. That is why there are several systems and ideologies that do serve that purpose which are compatible with atheism. Democracy is one of them, secular humanism, socialism, even communism or fascism can serve the same purpose. Communism in particular achieved a kind of religious following. The advantage of secular institutions are that they can be questioned.

Except that Atheism concludes all of these are just as meaningless as any other philosophy- They are compatible but fundamentally all of these philosophies are meaningless.

Peace be unto you

 

[spidergoat]

So what, all that matters is that they work within the circumstances we find ourselves. Everything else is just abstract.

The difficult thing about atheism is that it requires us to do some work, to actually think about the circumstances in which we find ourselves. It does not provide a built in set of symbols that allow people to get away with, and to actually even demand an end to investigation. Humans evolved within the context of human society, so we evolved to find value in our relationships with other people. God is a symbolic village chief for human society that has grown beyond the bounds of village life. It is no longer possible to maintain the values of a society through personal relationships, there are just too many people. That is one major purpose of religion. The ultimate context of religion is a meaningless universe of matter.

 

[786]

I think you understand it now.

This was my understanding all along, I was simply questioning Atheism not Atheists.

But personal meaning is all we need.

You may need it, sure, but another's need is not the same as your- their meaning in life could be destruction of everything- some folks love wars- their meaning is equally justified as your meaning.

The ultimate is beyond us just as the ultimate nature of God is beyond us. To think otherwise is pure arrogance.

These are two separate things-

1.To know that the ultimately everything is meaningless
2.To know that ultimately God exists and his nature is etc-

One of them devoid all meaning to our meaning, while the second is self-composed- There is a difference.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

So what, all that matters is that they work within the circumstances we find ourselves. Everything else is just abstract.

And why does it matter again?

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

You are utterly wrong- the fact that you are in the driving seat still makes everything meaningless.

that sounds like your own personal failing. i on the other hand impart a tentative meaning to both myself and all other phenomena i apprehend. a meaning that is derived from both a general consensus of reasoned and rational opinion and another of my own.

If Theism is correct- then you still have a continuation of your life and meaning to it- there is the after-life. So having God in the driver seat was meaningful

strictly speaking..... since god is an artifact of our thoughts, placing god in the drivers seat does not really mean we abscond from that responsibility. he is merely a chauffeur. the guy takes us wherever we want to go

 

[786]

that sounds like your own personal failing. i on the other hand impart a tentative meaning to both myself and all other phenomena i apprehend. a meaning that is derived from both a general consensus of reasoned and rational opinion and another of my own.

And what is that meaning?

strictly speaking..... since god is an artifact of our thoughts, placing god in the drivers seat does not really mean we abscond from that responsibility. he is merely a chauffeur. the guy takes us wherever we want to go

Accepting Theism would entail accepting that 'god is' NOT 'an artifact of our thoughts'- yielding all the rest you said as irrelevant.

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

You may need it, sure, but another's need is not the same as your- their meaning in life could be destruction of everything- some folks love wars- their meaning is equally justified as your meaning.

exceptions do not make the rule. the trend, even tho it appeared to be more theory rather than practice in the past, is a tendency towards a just and civic society. an impetus that is now applied more often that not

 

[spidergoat]

And why does it matter again?

Go to Hell

Why does social order matter? It's self-interest. I enjoy life when we are prosperous and everyone is happy. I don't enjoy life so much when it sucks. It's the maximization of pleasure and the minimization of pain. Religion cannot always accomplish this because it values other things. It can make people kill themselves and others in hope of an eternal mythological heaven. It's perverse.

 

[786]

Why does social order matter? It's self-interest. I enjoy life when we are prosperous and everyone is happy. I don't enjoy life so much when it sucks. It's the maximization of pleasure and the minimization of pain. Religion cannot always accomplish this because it values other things. It can make people kill themselves and others in hope of an eternal mythological heaven. It's perverse.

So I've highlighted a few words and I'll list them here:

self-interest - is your interest the same as the interest of someone else? Why should anyone care about your interests because they are meaningless to someone else

I enjoy life - does you enjoying the life have anything to do with order?

maximization of pleasure - there are psychos who have pleasure in heinous crimes and others who have pleasure in pain or seeing pain... and whose pleasure? A rapist has pleasure but I'm sure the one who is being raped isn't- the fact that all you have to care about is you 'personal meaning' can reconcile this act as 'meaningful'.

minimization of pain- whose pain?

Also the very things you mentioned can/are used to kill others as well...

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

And what is that meaning?

are you serious? you want me to make pronouncements on the meaning of life? i'll go found a religion if that were my forte

Accepting Theism would entail accepting that 'god is' NOT 'an artifact of our thoughts'- yielding all the rest you said as irrelevant.

i understand. this must be the foolhardy leap of faith. i rather not countenance such irrationality.

 

[786]

are you serious? you want me to make pronouncements on the meaning of life? i'll go found a religion if that were my forte

I figured

i understand. this must be the foolhardy leap of faith. i rather not countenance such irrationality.

Accepting Atheism is equally irrational

Secondly I was talking about 'accepting' Theism- and my following statements in this context were rational, but I understand that you think theism is irrational- while Atheism is just as irrational- but lets not make this a debate over the rationality of Atheism- although I'd be glad to discuss that in a separate thread.

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

So I've highlighted a few words and I'll list them here:

self-interest - is your interest the same as the interest of someone else? Why should anyone care about your interests because they are meaningless to someone else

I enjoy life - does you enjoying the life have anything to do with order?

maximization of pleasure - there are psychos who have pleasure in heinous crimes and others who have pleasure in pain or seeing pain... and whose pleasure? A rapist has pleasure but I'm sure the one who is being raped isn't- the fact that all you have to care about is you 'personal meaning' can reconcile this act as 'meaningful'.

minimization of pain- whose pain?

Also the very things you mentioned can/are used to kill others as well...

Peace be unto you

exceptions do not make the rule. do we not isolate aberrant behavior?
does hedonism necessarily imply an infringement on the rights of others?