re-EVOL-ve

[786]

exceptions do not make the rule. do we not isolate aberrant behavior?

The question is not about the exception... but the rule itself.... its like you are leaving out minority because you are a majority... majority isn't always right... and secondly the discussion is about 'personal meaning' which devoid the need to understand a 'rule' which is collective. Lastly the rule is meaningless to begin with

Peace be unto

 

[Gustav]

I figured

ahh
then why ask? is your current messiah failing you in ways that require you to feel out new ones?

 

[786]

ahh
then why ask? is your current messiah failing you in ways that require you to feel out new ones?

You're the one who said you see meaning in it... the fact that couldn't say what the meaning of the universe was, was expected, although I was open to be surprised

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

The question is not about the exception... but the rule itself.... its like you are leaving out minority because you are a majority... majority isn't always right... and secondly the discussion is about 'personal meaning' which devoid the need to understand a 'rule' which is collective. Lastly the rule is meaningless to begin with

Peace be unto

are you advocating that rapists and murderers have their day in the sun because of a perverted notion of subjective morality?

secondly. do not tell me what the discussion is about. i will extrapolate whatever i want from your statements and place it on the table. you feel free to deal with it or not

 

[Gustav]

You're the one who said you see meaning in it.....

a tentative meaning

which means stuff is amenable to reinterpretation.
ja, i aint no dyed in the wool, wild eyed, gibbering fanatic

 

[spidergoat]

self-interest - is your interest the same as the interest of someone else? Why should anyone care about your interests because they are meaningless to someone else

Yes, there is a broad overlap. My happiness depends on a functioning social order that is not overly restrictive of personal freedom.

I enjoy life - does you enjoying the life have anything to do with order?

Yes, quite so, my ability to buy a house, school my children in a safe environment, -participate in cultural events in a healthy environment. These are all things which society can achieve that maximize both pleasure and self-interest for all.

maximization of pleasure - there are psychos who have pleasure in heinous crimes and others who have pleasure in pain or seeing pain... and whose pleasure? A rapist has pleasure but I'm sure the one who is being raped isn't- the fact that all you have to care about is you 'personal meaning' can reconcile this act as 'meaningful'.

Yes, but their pleasure is not sustainable. Attaining maximum pleasure involves compromise between competing interests. I could do drugs every day, but that would lead to the pain of abuse and addiction. The pleasure of crimes is counterindicated by the pain of punishment or the anxiety of getting caught.

minimization of pain- whose pain?

Everyone's pain.

Also the very things you mentioned can/are used to kill others as well...

Same to you.

My main objection to your argument is that religion is judging atheism based on the values that religion created! They are no longer necessary in the modern world, and indeed are counterindicated.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Since the world is a result of chance events in the universe,...

Not quite. It's a result of physics. What you deem chance is a genuine pattern that is unpredictable to the human mind.

...as the atheists claim,...

What?

...then isn't it possible that we destroy the world, and let the universe have another crack at it, perhaps it'll create a 'peaceful world'.

Consiousness and sapience arise as a survival trait for resource competition. As long as there is consciousness, sapience, and resource copetition there will be war.

Maybe we will re-EVOL-ve. (EVOL is LOVE backwards) into beings that are more peaceful-...

We wouldn't evolve. Destroy the world and humans are gone forever. Another life form might evolve somewhere else in the universe that has enough resources to keep competition to a minimum (much like bonobos).

...anyways if everything was just in the state of 'energy' we would all just be One- and at peace with each other. :m:

Incorrect. We just wouldn't be. No consciousness/sapience to be at peace.

Is there a reason why someone shouldn't do this?

One reason is I don't think any life form on the planet wants to die because of some retarded idea. Another reason is it would toss 4.6 billion years of evolution down the shitter.

And anyway, why should anyone give a damn about any of you, its not like something will happen to them after they die?

The answer to the first part of the question is "whatever reason anyone wants". The answer to the second part of the question is "correct".

They'll simply be recycled into the circle of life....

Destroy the world and there is no more circle on this planet.

I don't see anything in Atheism that would stop them from doing this.......

Atheism isn't psychology, philosophy, ideology, so you're looking in a really stupid place.

Afterall we're just disposable junk- good thing we're biodegradable...:m:

"Disposable junk" is a subjective judgmenet. It doesn't exist outside the scope of your thoughts.

Peace be unto you

It's amazing when a muslim talks about destroying life and then says "peace be unto you". The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

 

[786]

are you advocating that rapists and murderers have their day in the sun because of a perverted notion of subjective morality?

Am I? I thought it was meaningless....? Are you advocating that rapists and murderers have their day in the sun because they do not have morality? If they do then it is equally justified as any other morality because in the end both of them are meaningless (equivalent).

secondly. do not tell me what the discussion is about. i will extrapolate whatever i want from your statements and place it on the table. you feel free to deal with it or not

Okay.... but lets just talk about the same thing while putting things on the table

Peace be unto you

 

[spidergoat]

Lack of ultimate meaning is meaningless. Just like nothing can be measured expect in relation to a defined frame of reference. There is no ultimate frame of reference. Just like words do not have ultimate meaning, only meaning in relation to other words and concepts. Does that fact that the word "human" is only a collection of vibrations of sounds make the word any less meanfull in relation to how it's used in the frame of reference of a human being? Of course not.

 

[786]

Yes, there is a broad overlap. My happiness depends on a functioning social order that is not overly restrictive of personal freedom.

And you are postulating that everyone's happiness is dependent on the same type of social order? Why does one need to follow such an order if they can live their life with 'personal freedom'- not bound by the so called freedom that is created by the society.

Yes, quite so, my ability to buy a house, school my children in a safe environment, -participate in cultural events in a healthy environment. These are all things which society can achieve that maximize both pleasure and self-interest for all.

I find that statement absolutely false- there is no system in the world that satisfies the pleasure of everyone, and so if your 'personal meaning' of life is different then you have no obligation to follow anything unless you have believe the others have a meaning to you- which may not consider the 'happiness' of the other.

Yes, but their pleasure is not sustainable. Attaining maximum pleasure involves compromise between competing interests. I could do drugs every day, but that would lead to the pain of abuse and addiction. The pleasure of crimes is counterindicated by the pain of punishment or the anxiety of getting caught.

Who are you to decide that a rapist's pleasure is less or equivalent to the anxiety of getting caught? Lastly if the punishment is a non-issue because of it being meaningless as like everything else- then there is no reason to 'sustain' pleasure- immediate gratification is an option because you are going to die anyways so the sustaining of others happiness or even yours is pointless.

Everyone's pain.

But there is no reason that someone needs to think about someone elses pain when everyone besides them is meaningless- to fulfill their own meaning of all they can do whatever they want.

Same to you.

I already know that, but you're the own who singled out religion so I just wanted to clarify that the problem is both ways-

My main objection to your argument is that religion is judging atheism based on the values that religion created! They are no longer necessary in the modern world, and indeed are counterindicated.

Hmm.... I'm not trying to use religion to argue anything about Atheism, I only talked about theism because of someone bringing it up. My contention is with Atheism making everything meaningless and not giving a shit about anything- leaving morals (whether based on religion or not) meaningless.

Peace be unto you

 

[(Q)]

I don't see anything in Atheism

Lastly lets not change the topic to religion.

ID10t. You offered from the OP.

Peace be unto you

Snakes be under you.

 

[786]

Not quite. It's a result of physics. What you deem chance is a genuine pattern that is unpredictable to the human mind.

I know that.... and I've discussed enough of that in the thread 'God of Science'- if you have anything related to this topic say it over there. The point is that the universe is meaningless whether random or not.

What?

Perhaps I should have made clear that the universe is without purpose before saying that.

Consiousness and sapience arise as a survival trait for resource competition. As long as there is consciousness, sapience, and resource copetition there will be war.

So in other words lets destroy everything so neither 'consiousness or sapience' exist- its not like you matter.

We wouldn't evolve. Destroy the world and humans are gone forever. Another life form might evolve somewhere else in the universe that has enough resources to keep competition to a minimum (much like bonobos).

And why does it matter that there is life in universe? Life is just as useless as non-life.

Incorrect. We just wouldn't be. No consciousness/sapience to be at peace.

Okay.... so we'll just be floating around atoms in another reaction which is not called a human- nothing is destroyed-

One reason is I don't think any life form on the planet wants to die because of some retarded idea. Another reason is it would toss 4.6 billion years of evolution down the shitter.

Who said everyone wants to die, one person can do it to everyone- its not like you matter.

Secondly why give a shit about evolution to begin with.

The answer to the first part of the question is "whatever reason anyone wants". The answer to the second part of the question is "correct".

So they can destroy everything for 'whatever reason anyone wants' which is the same thing.

Destroy the world and there is no more circle on this planet.

You'll just go back to the particles from which you came- you get into another reaction- and why does it even matter? Its not like there is any meaning to the cycle.

Atheism isn't psychology, philosophy, ideology, so you're looking in a really stupid place.

What is Atheism? I think you don't know the meaning of some of the words you wrote.

"Disposable junk" is a subjective judgmenet. It doesn't exist outside the scope of your thoughts.

True, I used it to emphasize that we don't need to exist or that we matter.

It's amazing when a muslim talks about destroying life and then says "peace be unto you". The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

I'm talking about the implications of believing that universe is meaningless as Atheism would see it; has nothing to do with being a Muslim. What is astounding is that everything you believe is meaningless

Peace be unto you

 

[(Q)]

Atheism on the other hand basically takes life to be practically meaningless

And, that just doesn't fit well with your cult myths and superstitions. Poor boy.

I suppose it never occurred to you that your cult doctrines makes out life to be little more than being a robotic, obedient follower?

Peace be unto you

Space be under you.

 

[786]

ID10t. You offered from the OP.

Some atheists specifically try to separate Atheism from Religion.... You can usually see that when Atheists attack 'religion' in general- I don't think they attack themselves so I'm sure they are trying to separate themselves.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Lack of ultimate meaning is meaningless. Just like nothing can be measured expect in relation to a defined frame of reference. There is no ultimate frame of reference. Just like words do not have ultimate meaning, only meaning in relation to other words and concepts. Does that fact that the word "human" is only a collection of vibrations of sounds make the word any less meanfull in relation to how it's used in the frame of reference of a human being? Of course not.

The universe will continue to exist without our existence- we are unnecessary, purposeless existence- and in the scheme of things meaningless as is the universe meaningless.

That could be an argument that in order for the universe to have meaning and anything in it then there needs to be someone who gave it meaning :shrug: But lets not get into that. The fact is everything is purposeless... the fact you die or not doesn't change anything except to those who assigned to you any meaning- but you destroy them then you become meaningless- I agree meaning is relative. That is why a rapists see meaning of of a woman to be different- and Atheism doesn't say crap about it because anything goes....

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

Am I? I thought it was meaningless....? Are you advocating that rapists and murderers have their day in the sun because they do not have morality? If they do then it is equally justified as any other morality because in the end both of them are meaningless (equivalent).

incomprehensible crap. the equivalent of a theological ten commandments is secular humanism's bill of rights. my morality is codified as well as justified thru logic to have the best possible outcome for all humans. simply because some do fall thru the cracks does not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. we rather attempt to refine and fix whatever is found to be wanting

see the thing here is we atheists unlike you theists do not pretend to be all knowing. we, our endeavors, are a work in progress. tedious i am sure but we have no choice but to go along with it as the current state of affairs are eminently preferable over adopting some pathological delusion

Okay.... but lets just talk about the same thing while putting things on the table

Peace be unto you

less muddle and more clarity if you desirous of getting your pov across

 

[spidergoat]

And you are postulating that everyone's happiness is dependent on the same type of social order? Why does one need to follow such an order if they can live their life with 'personal freedom'- not bound by the so called freedom that is created by the society.

Let me clarify, I think atheism is compatable with secular ideals of a good society which maximizes pleasure for the most number of citizens, while maintaining a sustainable way of life. Of course, no one really has to follow any such ideal.

I find that statement absolutely false- there is no system in the world that satisfies the pleasure of everyone, and so if your 'personal meaning' of life is different then you have no obligation to follow anything unless you have believe the others have a meaning to you- which may not consider the 'happiness' of the other.

I didn't mean to be absolutist. Of course no model of society could satisfy everyone, but we should seek models that could maximize the most satisfaction for the most people, taking into account the health of the planet.

Who are you to decide that a rapist's pleasure is less or equivalent to the anxiety of getting caught? Lastly if the punishment is a non-issue because of it being meaningless as like everything else- then there is no reason to 'sustain' pleasure- immediate gratification is an option because you are going to die anyways so the sustaining of others happiness or even yours is pointless.

Why is my own happiness dependent on time? The fact that the illusion of ego is temporal has no relation to it's personal value. Pleasure is self-evidently it's own reward. This was the philosophy of Epicurus. The material world is all that exists, so we might as well have fun. We also might as well ensure that all future people live in a time of happiness and prosperity for no other reason than it seems like a good idea. We may safely ignore those few people who would live outside of the rules and morals of society, they will do so no matter what.

If religion does not prevent evil acts, and atheism doesn't prevent evil acts, then they are equal in terms of their value to society. Atheism also has the advantage of being consistent with known scientific facts. It is also a notion that does not eliminate moral values, since the moral values of atheists do not depend on ultimate meaning (which cannot at present be shown to exist).

But there is no reason that someone needs to think about someone elses pain when everyone besides them is meaningless- to fulfill their own meaning of all they can do whatever they want.

Compassion for other people does not depend on eternal punishment. Such religious values arise out of fear and so may not be sincere. Atheists are good- for nothing.

Hmm.... I'm not trying to use religion to argue anything about Atheism, I only talked about theism because of someone bringing it up. My contention is with Atheism making everything meaningless and not giving a shit about anything- leaving morals (whether based on religion or not) meaningless.

As I pointed out, atheism doesn't make things meaningless because meaning arises in relation to our lives, not some abstract mythology.

 

[Gustav]

That could be an argument that in order for the universe to have meaning and anything in it then there needs to be someone who gave it meaning :shrug: But lets not get into that.

of course you cannot get into that. it absolutely shits on your proposition that nothing has meaning

 

[spidergoat]

The universe will continue to exist without our existence- we are unnecessary, purposeless existence- and in the scheme of things meaningless as is the universe meaningless.

That could be an argument that in order for the universe to have meaning and anything in it then there needs to be someone who gave it meaning :shrug: But lets not get into that. The fact is everything is purposeless... the fact you die or not doesn't change anything except to those who assigned to you any meaning- but you destroy them then you become meaningless- I agree meaning is relative. That is why a rapists see meaning of of a woman to be different- and Atheism doesn't say crap about it because anything goes....

Peace be unto you

Your mistake is in thinking atheism is a religion. You are incorrect. One can be an atheist and a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or a non-believer. There are many moral systems which are logically sound, which work to maximize happiness for the most possible people, and which do not depend on a creator God for justification.

Atheism also doesn't say crap about many other subjects. We are free to decide for ourselves. In that freedom, one may certainly dismiss all meaning and be a nihilist, or not. It's a personal choice.

 

[786]

And, that just doesn't fit well with your cult myths and superstitions. Poor boy.

That is not the point of the thread....

I suppose it never occurred to you that your cult doctrines makes out life to be little more than being a robotic, obedient follower?

Even Robots have a reason to exist because they are programmed for certain actions.... (Q) you are more meaningless than a robot, how do you feel

Peace be unto you