Proof God Exists

[Arioch]

@Dewy --

You have a very immature and fallacious idea of who God is and what he does.

Immature and fallacious huh? Well, it is based on the biblical account of god(after all, that what we were discussing, right?), and according to the bible god himself says that he's a vengeful and wrathful god.

Yes, he kills wicked people.

So you admit that he's a murderer then? Because so far as I know, he killed innocent people too, unless you don't consider an infant to be innocent. Ooh, are you one of those adorable christians who believes in the original sin? That would be so cute.

Get over it.

See, this is where I think that we suffer the largest disconnect. I'm not willing to just forgive and forget the cold blooded murder of billions, and neither should you. Should we just say "Well, Hitler may have killed millions of people in cold blood, but he's a nice guy"? Sorry, I just can't bring myself to do it, some things are unforgivable and a large chunk of the things attributed god are unforgivable.

He rewards good for good and evil for evil.

You are quite possibly the least biblical christian I've encountered here because that's certainly not what the bible says. Ever read the book of Job? And before you get into the message and the reasoning you should probably know that those are unimportant. There(as well as in several other places in the bible) he rewards good with evil.

This is a function of the quality he possesses known as Justice.

No. God, according to the bible, is the most unjust being in all of reality. Eternal punishments for finite crimes is the epitome of unjust. Not to mention the laws he passed down, those are incredibly unjust. How is stoning a woman to death because she got raped justice? Or how about killing unbelievers and burning down the town they lived in, that surely can't be justice.

He also forgives sins as a function of the quality he possesses known as Mercy.

Irrelevant. It doesn't erase his crimes.

If you don't want God to do evil to you, then don't do evil.

Sorry, but you seem to be quite out of touch with reality. Evil happens to good people more often than not.

He takes no pleasure in destroying the wicked.

Again, that's not what the bible says. The bible says that he enjoys it.

He does so to fulfill his righteous purposes.

Where does the bible say that?

Fortunately for all of us, he forgives us our sins when we repent and keep his commandments.

You need to support this claim with evidence.

How do I know? That is my faith.

Faith isn't knowledge.

 

[Dewy]

This message board is full to the brim with venomous, nasty, drooling-at-the-mouth people, isn't it? I see no reason to continue this debate, as you've all decided already that you're not going to listen. I won't cast any more pearls here. I leave you all to your unbelief.

 

[wynn]

This message board is full to the brim with venomous, nasty, drooling-at-the-mouth people, isn't it? I see no reason to continue this debate, as you've all decided already that you're not going to listen. I won't cast any more pearls here. I leave you all to your unbelief.

The infinite pride of the believer ...

 

[Dywyddyr]

This message board is full to the brim with venomous, nasty, drooling-at-the-mouth people, isn't it?

Yup. People prepared to make unfounded veiled accusations of dishonesty.

as you've all decided already that you're not going to listen. I won't cast any more pearls here.

This from the guy who has repeatedly refused to address the logic and stuck with "La la la I can't hear you".

Bye. Come back when your brain starts functioning.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Really?
If god has knowledge that on a particular day you will be offered a choice between an apple and an orange (for example) and he knows that you will choose the apple and eat it in 8 minutes and 34 seconds is it possible that you could choose the orange? Or that you could pick the apple and only take one bite before throwing it away?
Could you make a choice that shows god to be wrong?

The choice has already been made through our accumalitive actions.
The moment we separated from God (selfish desires), a choice we make in our
spiritual past, we become predictable like nature. While God knows what we will choose, we can still change our ways by becoming more spiritually aware,
changing our spiritual life. This change appears over different lifetimes.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

The choice has already been made through our accumalitive actions.

Each "choice" made throughout our lives is subject to previous "choices", which were subject to previous ones...
In other words... no choice.

The moment we separated from God (selfish desires), a choice we make in our spiritual past

"Spiritual past"?

While God knows what we will choose, we can still change our ways

So we can choose something that god didn't know? We can make god wrong?

This change appears over different lifetimes.

Unsupported rubbish.

You didn't answer the question:

Could you make a choice that shows god to be wrong?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Each "choice" made throughout our lives is subject to previous "choices", which were subject to previous ones...
In other words... no choice.

Our lives are predictable because we operate in a predictable medium. Our initial choice, the one we made when we separated from God, is what lead us
to our current position.

"Spiritual past"?

The essential us, the spirit-soul, which is part and parcel of God.
The use of the word ''past'' is used figuratively

So we can choose something that god didn't know? We can make god wrong?

All of matter is known by God, and our actions are the result of our misidentification with matter, so they also become known or predictable.
There are only two positions, spiritual and material, and our position is either one or the other.

If it is our inclination to come back to God, that inclination was there from the moment we decided to separate, so all actions done under the illusion of our identification with nature, have that inclination, and will eventually go back to God. There is no question of God being wrong.

Unsupported rubbish.

So why are you taking part in this sub-forum, spouting things likeGod can't be omniscient if we have free will?



jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Our lives are predictable because we operate in a predictable medium. Our initial choice, the one we made when we separated from God, is what lead us to our current position.

Which doesn't address the question.
As you yourself said: The choice has already been made.

The essential us, the spirit-soul, which is part and parcel of God.
The use of the word ''past'' is used figuratively

Yeah. Pure speculation based on nothing. Try to stay on-topic.

All of matter is known by God, and our actions are the result of our misidentification with matter, so they also become known or predictable.

So we don't have choices.

There are only two positions, spiritual and material, and our position is either one or the other.

Speculation.

If it is our inclination to come back to God, that inclination was there from the moment we decided to separate, so all actions done under the illusion of our identification with nature, have that inclination, and will eventually go back to God.

Waffle.

There is no question of God being wrong.

So we don't have a choice. It's predestined.

So why are you taking part in this sub-forum, spouting things like God can't be omniscient if we have free will?

WTF does your rubbish have to do with the question?
Although you appear to have answered the question. God can't be wrong so we don't have free will. Thanks.
(Which also answers that question of yours: I'm here because I have no choice. God must have predicted it, and I'm stuck with it).

 

[Aqueous Id]

to me what's more troubling than belief in God is disbelief in reality

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Which doesn't address the question.
As you yourself said: The choice has already been made.

Yes, by us.

Yeah. Pure speculation based on nothing. Try to stay on-topic.

It's not speculation, it's based on scripture.
And it is on topic, learn to read.

So we don't have choices.

We've already made the choice, we're now playing out the consequences.

Speculation.

No it's not, it based on scripture.
Maybe you should look at some before you make claims.

Waffle.

Because you don't get it, it's waffle?
How ignorant of you.

So we don't have a choice. It's predestined.

:facepalm:

WTF does your rubbish have to do with the question?

You're such a hateul guy aren't you?
Would you prefer if I didn't talk to you?

Although you appear to have answered the question. God can't be wrong so we don't have free will. Thanks.

That's not what I said, and I'm quite sure you know that, but prefer to act obtuse. If I'm wrong and that's really how this comes across to you, then i'll leave it. Maybe someone else may be interested.

(Which also answers that question of yours: I'm here because I have no choice. God must have predicted it, and I'm stuck with it).

So it's quite alright to discuss your perception of God but disregard mine?


jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Yes, by us.

Before the occasion arrived? Are we prescient?

It's not speculation, it's based on scripture.

Please quote the exact verse.

We've already made the choice, we're now playing out the consequences.

So we're prescient? (Again).

No it's not, it based on scripture.

Verse please.

Because you don't get it, it's waffle?
How ignorant of you.

No, it's waffle because it's unsupported.

:facepalm:

Is that your reply?

You're such a hateul guy aren't you?

Ah, assumptions again. And diversions.

Would you prefer if I didn't talk to you?

I'd prefer it if you were rational. But that's not gonna happen.

That's not what I said

Is it not?

There is no question of God being wrong.

The choice has already been made.

and I'm quite sure you know that, but prefer to act obtuse. If I'm wrong and that's really how this comes across to you, then i'll leave it. Maybe someone else may be interested.

Is that because you're incapable of making a sensible argument?

So it's quite alright to discuss your perception of God but disregard mine?

Huh? I'm not discussing my perception of god. I'm discussing claims made by theists and theology.

 

[Jan Ardena]

to me what's more troubling than belief in God is disbelief in reality

What's ''disbelief in reality?
Can you give an example?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Before the occasion arrived? Are we prescient?

We are essentially spirit-souls.

Please quote the exact verse.

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 verse 20.

No, it's waffle because it's unsupported.

No, it's supported by scriptures, one of which you have used to make
the claim that God cannot be omniscient if we have free will.

Is that your reply?

Yes.

I'd prefer it if you were rational. But that's not gonna happen.

I am being rational.
I'm explaining why God is omniscient while we have free will.
If the whole notion of God is irrational, why bring up this argument in the first place?

Is that because you're incapable of making a sensible argument?

What's not sensible about the argument I'm making?
Or are you prejudiced toward belief in God, period?

Huh? I'm not discussing my perception of god. I'm discussing claims made by theists and theology.

And these claims have their basis in scripture, so regardless of belief status, it's not speculation. We should still be able to discuss these topics despite our belief or lack of belief in them.
Don't you think?


jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

We are essentially spirit-souls.

Unsupported claim.

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 verse 20.

Oh fail.
We're talking about the Christian god. Although that particular quote also appears to be self-evident nonsense.

No, it's supported by scriptures, one of which you have used to make
the claim that God cannot be omniscient if we have free will.

One of which I have used? Please quote me and link to the post.

Yes.

Doesn't help your case.

I am being rational.
I'm explaining why God is omniscient while we have free will.

Yet your are failing to rationally address the argument.

If the whole notion of God is irrational, why bring up this argument in the first place?

I am pointing out that certain claims are mutually exclusive.

What's not sensible about the argument I'm making?

Because you consistently fail to address the argument as given and simply come up with "because it just is".

Or are you prejudiced toward belief in God, period?

I hadn't realised it was time again for one of your inane assumptions. I'll re-set my watch.

And these claims have their basis in scripture, so regardless of belief status, it's not speculation.

Therefore scripture is self-contradictory

We should still be able to discuss these topics despite our belief or lack of belief in them.
Don't you think?

Isn't that what we're doing?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Oh fail.
We're talking about the Christian god.

You may have been...

It's not speculation, it's based on scripture.

Please quote the exact verse.

One of which I have used? Please quote me and link to the post.

We're talking about the Christian god.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You may have been...

Still am.
Your point?

We're talking about the Christian god.

Yes, and how does that support your argument that I have

used [scripture] to make the claim that God cannot be omniscient if we have free will

Please elucidate.
All I've done is point out that that scripture is self-contradictory.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Still am.
Your point?

I'm talking about scripture, so the ''we'' is unjustified.

Yes, and how does that support your argument that I have

If you are talking about the ''Christian God'', then you are using the bible, whether directly or indirectly.
If you are merely questioning the arguments and assumption put foreward by Christians, or Theologians alike, you are indirectly (at least) using the bible because that is the basis of their belief and/study.

Please elucidate.
All I've done is point out that that scripture is self-contradictory.

And so far you've been unsuccessful.
Even in the bible we can understand that man is partly of God and the earth, through creation of Adam.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I'm talking about scripture, so the ''we'' is unjustified.

Then you're addressing neither my question nor the reasoning presented. Goodbye.

If you are talking about the ''Christian God'', then you are using the bible, whether directly or indirectly.
If you are merely questioning the arguments and assumption put foreward by Christians, or Theologians alike, you are indirectly (at least) using the bible because that is the basis of their belief and/study.

So what?
I'm talking about claims made, not using scripture to make MY claim.

And so far you've been unsuccessful.

Quite:

Even in the bible we can understand that man is partly of God and the earth, through creation of Adam.

Because boils down to, as shown here, because it just is like that.
Yet another fail....

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Then you're addressing neither my question nor the reasoning presented. Goodbye.

I am addressing your question, as we are essentially talking about ''God''.

So what?
I'm talking about claims made, not using scripture to make MY claim.

Fair enough, I'm just pointing it out to you that's all.

Quite:

Because boils down to, as shown here, because it just is like that.
Yet another fail....

Then your claim fails, as you seem to be saying the whole notion of God, and belief in God through scripture, is a failure to begin with.
Why bother to demand a physical explanation for something regard, and believed to be non-physical?

You may as well just say God doesn't exist, and be done with it.


jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I am addressing your question, as we are essentially talking about ''God''.

Not at all.
Since I don't know that omniscience for god and free will for us are claimed in any other religion.

Fair enough, I'm just pointing it out to you that's all.

Incorrectly, as I have shown.

Then your claim fails, as you seem to be saying the whole notion of God, and belief in God through scripture, is a failure to begin with.

Still wrong.
I'm pointing out that, according to the claims made in the Bible EITHER god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.

Why bother to demand a physical explanation for something regard, and believed to be non-physical?

Physicality doesn't come into it.

You may as well just say God doesn't exist, and be done with it.

If you'd bothered to read, at all, my argument, that's one possible option. But then again, you tend to argue against what you think you read rather than what is written.