Proof God Exists

[Dywyddyr]

You have a very immature and fallacious idea of who God is and what he does.

For someone who has stated that he doesn't "understand everything God does" you seem to be pretty certain about some things. How do you know Arioch's ideas are fallacious?

Yes, he kills wicked people. Get over it. He rewards good for good and evil for evil. This is a function of the quality he possesses known as Justice. He also forgives sins as a function of the quality he possesses known as Mercy. If you don't want God to do evil to you, then don't do evil.

He takes no pleasure in destroying the wicked. He does so to fulfill his righteous purposes. Fortunately for all of us, he forgives us our sins when we repent and keep his commandments.

Um, incorrect. God, being god, knew even before we were created who was going to be "good" or "bad". Yet the arrogant SOB went ahead and did it anyway. Is that not sadistic? To create (bring into existence by one method or another) those who were going to be "bad" and then let/ make us suffer for it? Especially since we have no choice in the matter.

 

[Dewy]

For someone who has stated that he doesn't "understand everything God does" you seem to be pretty certain about some things. How do you know Arioch's ideas are fallacious?

One doesn't need to understand all things in order to understand some things. How do I know? That is my faith.

Um, incorrect. God, being god, knew even before we were created who was going to be "good" or "bad". Yet the arrogant SOB went ahead and did it anyway. Is that not sadistic? To create (bring into existence by one method or another) those who were going to be "bad" and then let/ make us suffer for it? Especially since we have no choice in the matter.

No choice? Everyone is given freedom to choose by the creator. He doesn't create evil people and doom them to suffer. We are all free to choose liberty and eternal life or captivity and death. Complaining that you have no choice is just a cop out.

 

[Dywyddyr]

One doesn't need to understand all things in order to understand some things. How do I know? That is my faith.

But you don't know.
Arioch's ideas on god may be correct.

No choice? Everyone is given freedom to choose by the creator. He doesn't create evil people and doom them to suffer. We are all free to choose liberty and eternal life or captivity and death. Complaining that you have no choice is just a cop out.

If we are free to choose then god cannot be omniscient.
If he's not omniscient then he's not god.

 

[Dewy]

But you don't know.
Arioch's ideas on god may be correct.


If we are free to choose then god cannot be omniscient.
If he's not omniscient then he's not god.

Non sequitur.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Non sequitur.

Really?
That's the best you can come up with?

Can you say why/ how it's a non-sequitur?
Or is that just an empty claim because accepting it would spoil your cosy little picture?

 

[AlexG]

That is my faith.

Thus ends any intelligent discussion.

 

[Dewy]

Really?
That's the best you can come up with?

Can you say why/ how it's a non-sequitur?
Or is that just an empty claim because accepting it would spoil your cosy little picture?

God is omniscient AND we have free will. It's not one or the other.

 

[Dywyddyr]

God is omniscient AND we have free will. It's not one or the other.

So you still can't explain why it's a non-sequitur and you'd prefer to believe a contradiction.

One: if god is omniscient then he knows (infallibly) what we're going to do (even before we're born).
Two: if we do something other than what god knows we're going to do then we make god wrong. Thus, he's not omniscient.
Three: if we can only do what god knows we're going to do then we cannot do anything else - the "choice" is predestined and we don't actually have free will.

Where's the error?
Oh wait... it's wrong because you desperately want to believe in both.
Am I right?

 

[Dewy]

So you still can't explain why it's a non-sequitur and you'd prefer to believe a contradiction.

One: if god is omniscient then he knows (infallibly) what we're going to do (even before we're born).
Two: if we do something other than what god knows we're going to do then we make god wrong. Thus, he's not omniscient.
Three: if we can only do what god knows we're going to do then we cannot do anything else - the "choice" is predestined and we don't actually have free will.

Where's the error?
Oh wait... it's wrong because you desperately want to believe in both.
Am I right?

You're mistaken. Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. God knows what we'll do in advance, but he respects our freedom and allows us to make our own decisions. You assume that because our actions are predictable, that makes them inevitable. Not so.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You're mistaken. Foreknowledge does not equal predestination.

Really?
If there's no predestination then foreknowledge is not possible.

God knows what we'll do in advance, but he respects our freedom and allows us to make our own decisions.

Is that another way of saying "La la la I can't hear you"?

You assume that because our actions are predictable, that makes them inevitable. Not so.

No, you're not reading.
I said nothing about "predicting".

If god has knowledge that on a particular day you will be offered a choice between an apple and an orange (for example) and he knows that you will choose the apple and eat it in 8 minutes and 34 seconds is it possible that you could choose the orange? Or that you could pick the apple and only take one bite before throwing it away?
Could you make a choice that shows god to be wrong?

 

[Dewy]

Really?
If there's no predestination then foreknowledge is not possible.


Is that another way of saying "La la la I can't hear you"?


No, you're reading.
I said nothing about "predicting".

If God has knowledge that on a particular day you will be offered a choice between an apple and an orange (for example) and he knows that you will choose the apple and eat it in 8 minutes and 34 seconds is it possible that you could choose the orange? Or that you could pick the apple and only take one bite before throwing it away?
Could you make a choice that shows god to be wrong?

La la la I can't hear you. I have to admit it's a difficult concept to wrap my head around. But I'm secure in the fact that God will never take my free will away, so the point is moot to me.

 

[Dywyddyr]

But I'm secure in the fact that God will never take my free will away, so the point is moot to me.

Just sticking with your comfortable belief despite the obvious contradiction therein.
Is there any wonder why theists tend not to be considered rational?

I have to admit that it's a hard concept to wrap my head around. But I don't believe in predestination

You're stuck with it if you believe god is omniscient.

If god knows you'll pick A is it at all possible for you to pick B?
Can you make a choice that goes against what god knows you'll do?

If the answer is "no" then predestination and no free will is the only explanation. (And god becomes a sadist).
If the answer is "yes" then god isn't omniscient and therefore isn't god.


Of course, another answer is: "God isn't subject to logic and can do whatever he likes".
In which we're reduced to the fact that nothing, not one damn thing, can be said about him and taken as "factual" or reliable.

 

[Dewy]

Your arguments are just attempts to justify disobedience, nothing more.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Your arguments are just attempts to justify disobedience, nothing more.

Oh dear. And you're making an invalid, unsupported and stupid assumption.
Disobedience to whom?


Although... congratulations: you just found yet another way to say "La la la I can't hear you".

 

[Dewy]

Oh dear. And you're making an invalid, unsupported and stupid assumption.
Disobedience to whom?


Although... congratulations: you just found yet another way to say "La la la I can't hear you".

Go ahead and believe that if you wish. Once the conversation degenerates into accusations of stupidity, I find no further interest in talking to you. Apologize for your rudeness or we're done here.

 

[AlexG]

Once the conversation degenerates into accusations of stupidity, I find no further interest in talking to you.

But you started this thread with blatant stupidity. :shrug:

 

[Dywyddyr]

Go ahead and believe that if you wish. Once the conversation degenerates into accusations of stupidity

Um, the argument didn't.
The accusation of stupidity was directed specifically at your unfounded assumption.

Apologize for your rudeness or we're done here.

Sure, just as soon as you apologise for (and withdraw) your ridiculous assumption.

 

[Ellis]

I got an itchy butt, what does that mean?

..... stinky fingers?

 

[chimpkin]

You have a very immature and fallacious idea of who God is and what he does. Yes, he kills wicked people. Get over it. He rewards good for good and evil for evil. This is a function of the quality he possesses known as Justice. He also forgives sins as a function of the quality he possesses known as Mercy. If you don't want God to do evil to you, then don't do evil.

I see no empirical evidence for this.
The wicked prosper or do not, the good do good, and have awful stuff happen to them anyway.

 

[wynn]

Arioch is intentionally confrontational..

How do you know that?
Can you read minds?