Precognition

[shaman_]

shaman_...of COURSE that family's case is not te only abduction case i kow of. but because te observing and listening to them--and it being a family of such diverse age ranges, and it actuall BEING a group of people, it had an effect on me.
It happened in Lancaster, North of England. people in these regions are very down to earth. not at all 'californi-an' types...their name is Devereaux (i've ctually told ya all tis before)

After a lot of searching I could only one find one page. They are from Lancashire not Lancaster.

http://www.ufodata.co.uk/pdf/THE_REAL4400.pdf

Not much information though. I'll see if I can find the doco.

you wanna keep proddin em dont ya. like say PERSON HAD HAD THE EXPERIENCE--HORRENOUDous xperience of the typical invasive abduction trip, -----they meet up wid u lot. and you want to do yet MORE fukin proddin dont you..????comon, own up yu ewant to have em going in special brain mchines, and chekin teir toxic levls and fuk knows what els. THIS wt pople who have really just experienced someting So traumatic....

Wait a second. You want to put them under hypnosis and supposedly re-live the whole “HORRENOUDous” experience! Yet you keep accusing me of causing them trauma! Why would you have them go through that? That is worse than anything I would put them through.

You have already decided that they were definitely abducted by space aliens. Because of your alien beliefs you have already ruled out all possibilities without even really looking into the case.

but...but. tis is where it reveals YOUR problem not thees. in ORDER that your precious worldview is not distorted to yourselves. yo are quite preepared to harras such pople evenmore....for you claim, te ood of humanity. to 'help' tem not be hoaxed' etc

you lie to yourselves you do

I am open to a lot more possibilities than you are are duendy. It certainly appears that you are protecting your alien fantasies.

why dont you trust hypnotherapy?

You know very well why I don’t but, as with witness testimony, you ignore these problems to protect your worldview.

You ignore things that could undermine the credibility of your beliefs.

are you claiming tat ALL hypnotherapy is negative...???

No. You are trying to erect a straw man.

where is you.....dda de ded duuuum ..evidence fortat assertion? IF you are gonna make it---which i blieve you will. hah, does tis make m a mindreader

Duendy you could at least try to maintain some consistency and not appear to be a hypocrite.

You spent the first few pages of this thread complaining about people asking for evidence now you have asked me twice in two posts. Let me remind you.

next tey ask for evidence when really the asking forit is just another ploy to not to have to bother to think, explore, wonder, and UNDERSTANDthe limitations of their clicidy click reponses

me)))you HIDEbehind tis game your playin called 'wherezeevidence??'. that is your comfort zone. you just say it and like magic can keep keepin on in your safe zone. you neiter can be bothered actually making an effort to examine the evidence which IS avialable,

Perhaps you could have an open minded look at the satanic abuse cases from the 80s.

 

[duendy]

After a lot of searching I could only one find one page. They are from Lancashire not Lancaster.

me))))in actyual transcrtipt which i had begun copying---very tedious as i onlyhave VCR--twas said 'Lancaster'---oesn't matter tho

http://www.ufodata.co.uk/pdf/THE_REAL4400.pdf

me))my system cannot open this link

Not much information though. I'll see if I can find the doco.


Wait a second. You want to put them under hypnosis and supposedly re-live the whole “HORRENOUDous” experience! Yet you keep accusing me of causing them trauma! Why would you have them go through that? That is worse than anything I would put them through.

me)))oh myyyy gaaaawd. keep yer hair on. listen: yo aint seen the docu. agreed. until you do you aint. IN said docu. the gran and mum wer very very upset. espcially gran. why?
well, because they KHEW something very out of teordinary had happened but just couldn't process i. so their distress was like being in a limbo. do you understand. this is why mum CHOSE, wanted to remember. as YOU would want to remember missing time----right? and dont pretend you wouldn't n make a fool of yerself. of course we do. and YESit was distressing. bit i should hasten to bvet NOT asmuch as being grilled by debunkers who ASSUME they have brqin isease and want tem to have 'tests' to pove they aint fukin mental!...which is mo proddng and insinuation. right?

You have already decided that they were definitely abducted by space aliens. Because of your alien beliefs you have already ruled out all possibilities without even really looking into the case.

me)))))of for fuks sake. thy aren't the firs peole tat reveal tis pattrn are they? seeing a UFO, missing time. why dont you resepct THIS evidence instead of treatig people like children---paronizing them to protect YOUR worldview? like Dr Mack did, etc.


I am open to a lot more possibilities than you are are duendy. It certainly appears that you are protecting your alien fantasies.

me))))))errr aprently not open to te biggie tho huh---actual reaaaal abduction by entities!!

You know very well why I don’t but, as with witness testimony, you ignore these problems to protect your worldview.

me)))no read my question agin. i aked you are you totally negative about hynotherapy. totally?do you not see ANY use for it whatsoever...?

You ignore things that could undermine the credibility of your beliefs.

me))))))so do you . its yo blindspot.

No. You are trying to erect a straw man.
mePPPi am askin you a direct question. do you believe A L L hypnotherapy is negative. whay wont you answer this?

Duendy you could at least try to maintain some consistency and not appear to be a hypocrite.

me))))i was preempting you claim 'yeah all hypnotherapy is false' and am asking you evidence for that assertion.....!


You spent the first few pages of this thread complaining about people asking for evidence now you have asked me twice in two posts. Let me remind you.

me))wl i AMaskin. well?i m not anti evidence. i am anti-using the evidence thang as a means to stop investigation in areas the appliance of an INTERPRETATION of 'evidence' may not be appropriate becaus the interpretation is limited. is this clear?








Perhaps you could have an open minded look at the satanic abuse cases from the 80s.

i am very well aware of all tat. but tis is why i am seriously asking you--which is difficult wit someone S distrustful and defensive as you are--do you believe ALL hypnotherapy is negATIVE......SHEEEEIT!

 

[shaman_]

me))my system cannot open this link

You may not be able to display pdf files.

me)))oh myyyy gaaaawd. keep yer hair on. listen: yo aint seen the docu. agreed. until you do you aint. IN said docu. the gran and mum wer very very upset. espcially gran. why?
well, because they KHEW something very out of teordinary had happened but just couldn't process i. so their distress was like being in a limbo. do you understand. this is why mum CHOSE, wanted to remember. as YOU would want to remember missing time----right? and dont pretend you wouldn't n make a fool of yerself. of course we do. and YESit was distressing. bit i should hasten to bvet NOT asmuch as being grilled by debunkers who ASSUME they have brqin isease and want tem to have 'tests' to pove they aint fukin mental!...which is mo proddng and insinuation. right?

Again you are distorting the situation duendy. No one has made any assumptions or insinuations. Your appeal to emotion is just a logical fallacy.

The point that you have skirted is that you think making them relive the “HORRENOUDous” experience through hypnotherapy is ok but any other test of a scientific nature is too distressing. This is a double standard and it is clear why you cling to it. Unreliable hypnotherapy is more likely to support the claim than other research.

me)))))of for fuks sake. thy aren't the firs peole tat reveal tis pattrn are they? seeing a UFO, missing time. why dont you resepct THIS evidence instead of treatig people like children---paronizing them to protect YOUR worldview? like Dr Mack did, etc.

You are against any investigation into abduction cases (other than testimony and hypnotherapy) because these people were abducted by aliens. That logic is circular. I am trying to find if they were.

Once again you are discarding all the 'mundane' explanations because you want to believe in aliens.

me)))no read my question agin. i aked you are you totally negative about hynotherapy. totally?do you not see ANY use for it whatsoever...?

Perhaps you could read my answer again. I said no.

There appear are uses for hypnotherapy. However it is unreliable and even dangerous when used for events such as this, past life regression, satanic ritual abuse ect. Do you underestimate how complicated our minds are?

mePPPi am askin you a direct question. do you believe A L L hypnotherapy is negative. whay wont you answer this?

I did answer.

me))))i was preempting you claim 'yeah all hypnotherapy is false' and am asking you evidence for that assertion.....!

You are creating a straw man. You are asking me to defend something I never said.

me))wl i AMaskin. well?i m not anti evidence. i am anti-using the evidence thang as a means to stop investigation in areas the appliance of an INTERPRETATION of 'evidence' may not be appropriate becaus the interpretation is limited. is this clear?

You asked for evidence then for the exact same reason that sceptics do.

i am very well aware of all tat. but tis is why i am seriously asking you--which is difficult wit someone S distrustful and defensive as you are--do you believe ALL hypnotherapy is negATIVE......SHEEEEIT!

Which I answered.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Shaman and Duendy,

I saw the odd sub-'discussion' concerning regression with hypnosis and it sounds like data concerning the experience was desired (to be used as evidence). I visited a SciForums member (Zanket) in person and met up with his hypnotherappist for some past life regression.

The results can be found here:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=794052#post794052
Post: 04-04-05, 12:57 AM

I found alot of flaws within the experience itself and strong similarities to lucid dreams and hypnogogia. This would serve as a point of evidence that regression experiences are not reliable recollections of memory.

 

[duendy]

You may not be able to display pdf files.

Again you are distorting the situation duendy. No one has made any assumptions or insinuations. Your appeal to emotion is just a logical fallacy.

The point that you have skirted is that you think making them relive the “HORRENOUDous” experience through hypnotherapy is ok but any other test of a scientific nature is too distressing. This is a double standard and it is clear why you cling to it. Unreliable hypnotherapy is more likely to support the claim than other research.

me)))))can you not spot the difference. A family has had an experience. they know tey re not mad. but tey Do know they have had some kind of deep experience. ie., them all seeing that UFO and deep love feelings. then te missing hour. these are real people. NOT guneae pigs fr you to try out your test on them to see if they are all vrain damaged or whatever it is your suggesting. it is a vulnerable situation, because they feel sinled out b tis extraordinary experience. te last thing they ill want is critical personalities assuming they are mentally deranged!....
As a matter of interst. tel me how you would approach ths family, and would offer them? what if they requestion hypnoterapy. telling you how distressed they are not knowing whathappened, including the missing time?

You are against any investigation into abduction cases (other than testimony and hypnotherapy) because these people were abducted by aliens. That logic is circular. I am trying to find if they were.

me)))))yes by an interrogational attitude to suit YOU not them!....why dont you ask them what THEY want? they are te ones in distress, not you

Once again you are discarding all the 'mundane' explanations because you want to believe in aliens.

me)))will you quit this crap? stop believin you know what i think/feel? i do not want to believe in abducing aliens. do i fukin hell. but i am tryin to respect peoles experience, and look at patterns


Perhaps you could read my answer again. I said no.

There appear are uses for hypnotherapy. However it is unreliable and even dangerous when used for events such as this, past life regression, satanic ritual abuse ect. Do you underestimate how complicated our minds are?

me)))yes i do. do YOU?? what is hynotherapy GOOD for would you say?

I did answer.

You are creating a straw man. You are asking me to defend something I never said.

You asked for evidence then for the exact same reason that sceptics do.

Which I answered.

summarizing. it is real pepple being dealt wit. people who just MAY have had incredible mindblowin exprience. so it is first and foremost to understand their needs not yours, unless they may agree to your brain tests. tho i cant wait to see wat yo suggest.....!

 

[duendy]

of course meant to type...no i DONT underestimate our mind. i also dont underestimate REALITY

 

[shaman_]

me)))))can you not spot the difference. A family has had an experience. they know tey re not mad. but tey Do know they have had some kind of deep experience. ie., them all seeing that UFO and deep love feelings. then te missing hour. these are real people. NOT guneae pigs fr you to try out your test on them to see if they are all vrain damaged or whatever it is your suggesting. it is a vulnerable situation, because they feel sinled out b tis extraordinary experience. te last thing they ill want is critical personalities assuming they are mentally deranged!....

Once again duendy, I have not made any assumptions and I said nothing about them deing deranged.

You refrained from responding to my observation yet again. You go to great lengths to describe the fragile condition these people are in but you think it is perfectly ok to use hypotherapy on them and make them go through it all over again! The potential for creating memories could make the whole situation much worse and distress them mcuh further. Yet the idea of something like taking a blood sample or a medical check up you would find offensive.

As I said, I believe you have this view because hypnotherapy is more likely to validate your beliefs.

As a matter of interst. tel me how you would approach ths family, and would offer them? what if they requestion hypnoterapy. telling you how distressed they are not knowing whathappened, including the missing time?

Of course I would not encourage hypnotherapy. There might be other ways to find out what happened without resorting to unreliable and dangerous methods.

me)))))yes by an interrogational attitude to suit YOU not them!....why dont you ask them what THEY want? they are te ones in distress, not you

No kidding

me)))will you quit this crap? stop believin you know what i think/feel? i do not want to believe in abducing aliens. do i fukin hell. but i am tryin to respect peoles experience, and look at patterns

Yes I think you do want to believe in aliens.

me)))yes i do. do YOU?? what is hynotherapy GOOD for would you say?

I have read that hypnotherapy could be helpful for quitting smoking, stress and anxiety, weight loss ect.

summarizing. it is real pepple being dealt wit. people who just MAY have had incredible mindblowin exprience. so it is first and foremost to understand their needs not yours, unless they may agree to your brain tests. tho i cant wait to see wat yo suggest.....!

But it is clear from your posts that you have decided that they have had an alien experience. Because of this belief you would be appalled by anything I would suggest.

You asked myself and others how we would investigate the event but if anything other than hypnotherapy and listening is suggested you are shocked because these people have been abducted and probed and have therefore been through enough. Right?

Until this post I had not even suggested anything and you have already accused me of saying many things I have not said.

Hearing - "oh my gaaawd they are real people who have had a real experience and you want to plug them into machines and accuse them of lying or being deranged!!!!!!. " - is getting a little tiring duendy.

 

[shaman_]

Shaman and Duendy,

I saw the odd sub-'discussion' concerning regression with hypnosis and it sounds like data concerning the experience was desired (to be used as evidence). I visited a SciForums member (Zanket) in person and met up with his hypnotherappist for some past life regression.

The results can be found here:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=794052#post794052
Post: 04-04-05, 12:57 AM

I found alot of flaws within the experience itself and strong similarities to lucid dreams and hypnogogia. This would serve as a point of evidence that regression experiences are not reliable recollections of memory.

Sounds like a very interesting experience. I could see how someone who has had a traumatic experience or is very open to fantasy could interpret these experiences in a different way.

I do not underestimate how incredible our imagination is and how complex our brains are. I know I have had many dreams what were so amazing that I could not actually believe that it was my mind that created them. I would consider them well beyond the ability of my (waking) imagination.
To me your experience suggests hypnotherapy can unlock, or is a catalyst for, this type of imagination.

 

[duendy]

Once again duendy, I have not made any assumptions and I said nothing about them deing deranged.

You refrained from responding to my observation yet again. You go to great lengths to describe the fragile condition these people are in but you think it is perfectly ok to use hypotherapy on them and make them go through it all over again! The potential for creating memories could make the whole situation much worse and distress them mcuh further. Yet the idea of something like taking a blood sample or a medical check up you would find offensive.

me))taking a BLOOD sample...? a medical chackup....? what the fuks THATS gonna do?
please explain. listen up cause i am gettin tired of trying to get thru to you. This family WANTEDto FIND OUT about tat missing time. do---you---inderstand. and WANTED hynotherapy. which you will deny them--wid yur blood tests and what not. you keep assuming I, or whoever want to give tem further disytress? their distress is not knowing what happned. please have tis sink in orr i am gonna strangle u!

As I said, I believe you have this view because hypnotherapy is more likely to validate your beliefs.

me)))well this is because you dont trust hypnoterapy right---at ALL right? so you got yer blood tests right. which mas they will carry on in a limbo. yo ofer them no resolvment.


Of course I would not encourage hypnotherapy. There might be other ways to find out what happened without resorting to unreliable and dangerous methods.
No kidding

me))))like WHAT??

Yes I think you do want to believe in aliens.

mew))))))how old r you agin?


I have read that hypnotherapy could be helpful for quitting smoking, stress and anxiety, weight loss ect.

But it is clear from your posts that you have decided that they have had an alien experience. Because of this belief you would be appalled by anything I would suggest.

me))i asked you didn't i?

You asked myself and others how we would investigate the event but if anything other than hypnotherapy and listening is suggested you are shocked because these people have been abducted and probed and have therefore been through enough. Right?

me))))))no. they have missing time. what are your tests gonna DO?

Until this post I had not even suggested anything and you have already accused me of saying many things I have not said.

me))))ahhhhh didums

Hearing - "oh my gaaawd they are real people who have had a real experience and you want to plug them into machines and accuse them of lying or being deranged!!!!!!. " - is getting a little tiring duendy.

well what are your tests gonna DO. tell me? how do we help tese people remember whathappened in that missing time? any ideas?

 

[duendy]

A 'belief' at a bare minimum is acceptance of an assertion as truth. What was offered was a speculation (heresay, conjecture, whim) and although it's rooted in evidence, it's by no means accepted as truth. Consequently, the speculation involved both matter and energy and doesn't necessarily rule out space-time, stings, branes, and dimensions.

me))))))all o which can be measured

My understanding of 'Physicalism' is that is strictly dealt with matter and none of the other things I mentioned.

me))with matter-ENERGY, which would include dimensions and space-time



Take decoherence for example. A particle changes state due to stimulus (say temperature drop) and it suddenly exists and yet has no specific location in space. Nobody has the slightest clue how to measure that particle's location at that time. Limitations in knowledge & technology are the key factors.

me)))bu we are still talking about a particle/wave---'both' in principle having extension in space



No idea. I don't recall suggesting that. Dead matter applies to organic constructs that lack the electrical, heat, and chemical energy of 'live' matter and that might be a distinction to help with the answer you're searching for.




Um... maybe this is a mis-understanding of the word speculation? Nobody has located 'it'.

me))))))no. consciousness cannot be measured. how big IS it? can you tell me? thus it is non-loctable. if ta cant measure , then there is no location from which to measure




How else is it creative that matter-energy is conscious? In that model, my poo is conscious as well as my intestine, my fingernails, my boogers, my nose hair (that's pretty darn creative)... my question would be, what in reality supports such a firm conclusion? How would my poop make comparisons, derive meaning, and remember?

me)))))is shit Einstein?.....heh......no. creative doesn't have to mean an image of an artists . it is the interlated creative pattern which sustains. sit is very valuable. its decay nourishes life. we flush it down te bog...! dont know if you know mythology? well one of the oldest prepatriarchal goddesses'es is Hekate. she is the goddesss of compost tips! reprsenting the place consciousnesses go and are recycled creativly. where OUR 'shit' goes?



I dont; however, I can predict with reasonable accuracy. There are people who (through injury / severe sickness) loose their ability to store new information in long term memory. Their short term memory ceases every few minutes and they end up in a completely new environment. They can never learn anything new and their foundation for comparison gets stale-er every day. They could be raving mad and once they reset they are scared of the new environment or happy to see someone whom they don't realize was there the whole time. With complete memory loss, there isn't even a 1 ms 'hold time' for anything short term and no access to anything long term. No language, no concepts, not even instinct. Based on the experiences of people whom only loos access to their long term memory it's a reasonable prediction that consciousness might fail... but again, my original question is what do you think would happen?

me))))not sure what your asking here.....? but i reiterate. howeerseeeming decripid tis prson may sem, we still cannot KNOW what they feel inside, AND they ARE conscious. which is what you seemed to be questioning. a terrible tate of consciousness due to brain damage but still conscious



I don't accept it as truth if thats what you mean. It's speculation and it's based on the evidence reality has yielded to date. I would have no idea how matter and energy could produce subjective consciousness. Calling the human brain random matter might not be correct though. Evolution is evidence of some interesting processes in reality that don't appear random at all.

me))))well you've just answered it. NOt random at all. creeatively happening/actualizing trees, and brtains and oter forms and.........



To me, not in the least. If I didn't have the right education, it might only make sense to me to say 'God' did it. One of the big flaws of human thinking is the notion that if an answer isn't there then we *must* make something up that 'sounds / feels right' (i.e. makes sense) and accept it as truth. That line of thinking has had evolutionary benefit but has made finding truth alot harder.

me)))well as i said. understanding that matter-energy is active intelligence does clear up lots of 'problems' like for example te ongoing 'God' vs 'evolution' debate



What paradox? I don't think I've heard of it. The real difference between the two that I can see is that creationism is a model based on 'belief' where evolution is a model based on 'evidence'. The first relies on human creativity and emotion while the latter relies on reality.

there actually is not that MUCH evidence of evolution, lots of flwaws, and incites a sense of maninglessness. and we knooow what the 'God' taaaang has and is doing. so we need someting radically primal and new!

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Sounds like a very interesting experience. I could see how someone who has had a traumatic experience or is very open to fantasy could interpret these experiences in a different way.

I do not underestimate how incredible our imagination is and how complex our brains are. I know I have had many dreams what were so amazing that I could not actually believe that it was my mind that created them. I would consider them well beyond the ability of my (waking) imagination.
To me your experience suggests hypnotherapy can unlock, or is a catalyst for, this type of imagination.

That it was. It outright rocked. I suspect it was more interesting than an LSD experience... and no harmful chemicals have to go into the ol' blood stream to boot. Yep, I can definately see how someone can easily latch on to the attractive fantasy the human mind can generate. I am in the same boat as you... my waking mind doesn't have nearly the creative power as my dreaming/hallcinating mind.

After the session, I went back to my hotel and was sitting on my bed. I was so relaxed that I slipped back into that 'state' again for another 40 seconds or so. During that time, there was some techno-rocks song playing with children singing some funky song in Japanese. What I saw was a blue background with Yellow cheese wedges rockin' to the beat and there was a fleet of oversized penguins dancing with excellent choreography and they were all holding chocolate bars. When I came out of it, I start laughing at the utter silliness of it.

 

[c7ityi_]

listen up cause i am gettin tired of trying to get thru to you.

Then fuck off.

please have tis sink in orr i am gonna strangle u!

Go ahead.

mew))))))how old r you agin?

I don't have an age.

and we knooow what the 'God' taaaang has and is doing. so we need someting radically primal and new!

Like the theosophic idea of spiritual energy becoming more and more 'material'.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

me))))))all o which can be measured

Evidence suggests they all have the potential of being measured; however, not everything I listed is presently measurable.

me))with matter-ENERGY, which would include dimensions and space-time

Dimensions aren't matter or energy in any model I am aware of. We don't know that space-time is either.

me)))bu we are still talking about a particle/wave---'both' in principle having extension in space

Decoherence is not about a particle/wave. It's about particle/particle-without-relationship. Take a big superheated carbon molecule for example. It's there, you can see it, touch it, fondle it (beware it might burn), and if it's taken to an environment where it cools, it literally disappears before your very eyes. What's happening is that the only relationship that superheated molecule had with its surroundings (nearby walls for example) was the radiation it emitted from being hot (that gave it a definite location). As soon as it stops emmiting radiation, it has no more relationship with its surroundings and becomes an isolated object (that's not a wave... the molecule is still a molecule).

me))))))no. consciousness cannot be measured. how big IS it? can you tell me? thus it is non-loctable. if ta cant measure , then there is no location from which to measure

Making that assertion means that you have alot of factual knowledge concerning what it is and how it works. That's not the case for anyone on earth. Nobody at present knows how to measure consciousness. Reality tells us that anything tangible has the potential to be measured... and complex systems are very hard.

Assuming consciousness is an effect of matter energy, then it's size might be the volume of all the active matter/energy in the brain during a moment of consciousness. It would likely fluctuate and it could be expressed in terms of min, max, and mean.

Consequently, size is not the only measurement that can be applied to something and isn't always the most useful measurement. Could someone possible measure the size of the electrical activity in my laptop? Sure. Would it be a royal pain in the ass to do so? Yep. Would it be useful enough to invest such an effort? Not likely.

me)))))is shit Einstein?.....heh......no. creative doesn't have to mean an image of an artists . it is the interlated creative pattern which sustains. sit is very valuable. its decay nourishes life. we flush it down te bog...! dont know if you know mythology? well one of the oldest prepatriarchal goddesses'es is Hekate. she is the goddesss of compost tips! reprsenting the place consciousnesses go and are recycled creativly. where OUR 'shit' goes?

Thats all a great history of shit and it doesn't answer the question that if everything is conscious, how does shit make comparison, remember, learn, solve problems, etc.?

me))))not sure what your asking here.....? but i reiterate. howeerseeeming decripid tis prson may sem, we still cannot KNOW what they feel inside, AND they ARE conscious. which is what you seemed to be questioning. a terrible tate of consciousness due to brain damage but still conscious

No problem, I'll paraphrase my question at the end of this section of response. A person with only short term memory storage capability can tell us how they feel and we can observe it. One moment they're raving mad, then their memory capacity runs out and they are not mad anymore. They effectively reset. Evidence of short-term-only memory people suggests that continuous re-set without the ability to compare, know, remember would result in failed consciousness. To my knowledge, all the parts of the brain involved with emotion (such as the Amygdala) have to work with memory and that would also support the notion that a person whom has no memory recall/storage ability would not feel anything either.

My question to you was, if all memory was gone (short term, long term, mid term) what do you think happens to consciousness?

me))))well you've just answered it. NOt random at all. creeatively happening/actualizing trees, and brtains and oter forms and.........

I don't understand any of what was just said there.

me)))well as i said. understanding that matter-energy is active intelligence does clear up lots of 'problems' like for example te ongoing 'God' vs 'evolution' debate

I don't agree; however, it's likely a moot point as I haven't encountered anything in reality to even suggest all matter-energy is intelligent. My carpet agrees, but in all seriousness, is this a belief or is this something that reality has produced evidence of?

there actually is not that MUCH evidence of evolution, lots of flwaws, and incites a sense of maninglessness. and we knooow what the 'God' taaaang has and is doing. so we need someting radically primal and new!

While I don't know your knowledge levels of 'God' related information, I can say with confidence that if an assertion is being made that there is not much evidence for evolution then there is an educational gap afoot. There is a significant amount of evidence supporting evolution (and I really mean significant). The model represents a very real process built into reality. Really the only thing left with the model is to make adjustments to the details as we encounter new evidence. I've taken college-level coursework in evolution and not only is there alot of very meaningful evidence, it gives some insight into some truly awesome processes reality has built into it. Consequently, I've been keeping up on the evolution track and there is alot of evidence pointing to the earliest common ancestor of all life on earth may be viruses. The existence and composition of the mimivirus would be an example of evidence to support this. Nothing new is needed except more detail from reality concerning evolution theory.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

...they were all holding chocolate bars. When I came out of it, I start laughing at the utter silliness of it.

Actually, it might have been ice cream sandwhiches. I should have wrote that one down

 

[duendy]

Evidence suggests they all have the potential of being measured; however, not everything I listed is presently measurable.

Dimensions aren't matter or energy in any model I am aware of. We don't know that space-time is either.

me))))butterm dimension means measure. and spacetime can 'curve' which is havcing a location


Decoherence is not about a particle/wave. It's about particle/particle-without-relationship. Take a big superheated carbon molecule for example. It's there, you can see it, touch it, fondle it (beware it might burn), and if it's taken to an environment where it cools, it literally disappears before your very eyes. What's happening is that the only relationship that superheated molecule had with its surroundings (nearby walls for example) was the radiation it emitted from being hot (that gave it a definite location). As soon as it stops emmiting radiation, it has no more relationship with its surroundings and becomes an isolated object (that's not a wave... the molecule is still a molecule).

me)))))which is potentially measureable where consciousness isn't


Making that assertion means that you have alot of factual knowledge concerning what it is and how it works. That's not the case for anyone on earth. Nobody at present knows how to measure consciousness. Reality tells us that anything tangible has the potential to be measured... and complex systems are very hard.

me)))and i am asking you. where ISit. where IS consciousness plase. i wanna find it. do you know where it is?

Assuming consciousness is an effect of matter energy, then it's size might be the volume of all the active matter/energy in the brain during a moment of consciousness. It would likely fluctuate and it could be expressed in terms of min, max, and mean.

ne)))but your pre-sumption is not mine cause i cant find it. it is non-locatable

Consequently, size is not the only measurement that can be applied to something and isn't always the most useful measurement. Could someone possible measure the size of the electrical activity in my laptop? Sure. Would it be a royal pain in the ass to do so? Yep. Would it be useful enough to invest such an effort? Not likely.

me))))but it has extension in space so IS measureable



Thats all a great history of shit and it doesn't answer the question that if everything is conscious, how does shit make comparison, remember, learn, solve problems, etc.?

me))as i said. sntience doesn't mean shit will be a scholar. i means that matter-energy is aware. is alife. shit is shit, and is part of that. process is alife. its not separate things with separate consciousnesss, cause consciousness is not 'inside' anything as it has no location...!



No problem, I'll paraphrase my question at the end of this section of response. A person with only short term memory storage capability can tell us how they feel and we can observe it. One moment they're raving mad, then their memory capacity runs out and they are not mad anymore. They effectively reset. Evidence of short-term-only memory people suggests that continuous re-set without the ability to compare, know, remember would result in failed consciousness. To my knowledge, all the parts of the brain involved with emotion (such as the Amygdala) have to work with memory and that would also support the notion that a person whom has no memory recall/storage ability would not feel anything either.

me))))they mightin the moment of cutting ter hand off. but regardless. they are aware. they may not have brain damage but tis doesn't mean consciousness is EFFECT of brain, surely

My question to you was, if all memory was gone (short term, long term, mid term) what do you think happens to consciousness?

me))i tink you are still thinkingof it as a 'thing' that can be located. eithr in te brain of someone who has most memory, or having 'gone' somewhere. but how can someting go when it has no location?......



I don't understand any of what was just said there.

me(((((((i said that matter-energy is creative. that there i nothing BEHIND matter-energy, like 'God' or 'random frces', but IS intelligence




I don't agree; however, it's likely a moot point as I haven't encountered anything in reality to even suggest all matter-energy is intelligent. My carpet agrees, but in all seriousness, is this a belief or is this something that reality has produced evidence of?

me))))))so how then does subjective consciousness suddenly come from insentient matter then. devise a seriously put togther answer, and i ill--if i cant hande it--ask de Qincey himself if he can answer it. i've had several pms with him. he is one of te most apporachable and courteuos....and friendly, people i've ever met

 

[duendy]

sorry CruncyCat ....couldn't manage last part of your post. a bit too much for my limited system. about evolution. have seen some prettly decent challenges to te teory in the philosophy threads....yesterady and today. where were you?? cauase i would like to see someone who is into the throey answer them

also. have you als read the de Quincey essay 'Jesus or Darwin?' at his site www.deepspirit.com
read it......? what do you make of it?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

sorry CruncyCat ....couldn't manage last part of your post. a bit too much for my limited system. about evolution. have seen some prettly decent challenges to te teory in the philosophy threads....yesterady and today. where were you?? cauase i would like to see someone who is into the throey answer them

No problem, and as far as the threads go, I never saw them or the title didn't interest me .

also. have you als read the de Quincey essay 'Jesus or Darwin?' at his site www.deepspirit.com
read it......? what do you make of it?

Yep, I took a look. The author does a really great job of inventing synthesis under the appeal to emotion between two different ideas for the benefit depolarizing people's positions. While thats good psychology, the assertions that are used are unsupported by evidence in reality and they are also incompatible with the process of science.

 

[duendy]

No problem, and as far as the threads go, I never saw them or the title didn't interest me .



Yep, I took a look. The author does a really great job of inventing synthesis under the appeal to emotion between two different ideas for the benefit depolarizing people's positions. While thats good psychology, the assertions that are used are unsupported by evidence in reality and they are also incompatible with the process of science.

oh, you reckon his ideas just 'appeal to emotion'...? well, forme they appeal to my reason to. VERY much so

and you claim his 'synthesis' is 'unsupported by evidence'..?
oh, agian. like where's zee evidence for evolution then? and forconsciousness.

see? we are al of us without complete objective evidence as demanded by complte materialistic scientism. sooo e have to see what is plausible----have to see the much bigger picture. and where i am sitting the way you seem to adhere to is poisoning the very planet as we breathe

for to begin to ee Nature as ALIVE and not some dead commodity ready for the slice up for profit--the scam thats been going on for hunderedsof fukin miserable years now, then it wont get no better. i cant see your 'alternative' has anything really going for it.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

me))))butterm dimension means measure. and spacetime can 'curve' which is havcing a location

The definition of dimension I am working with is a property that makes up part of a quantity (ex. height). While we can measure the height of matter, we have no clue about how to measure the dimension 'height' itself. Space-time does curve and honestly nobody knows for sure what means location-wise. For all we know, location may only be relevant to information that's a part of space-time but not seperate from it. It is a great hypothesis to test however... the LHC in 07' might help with that.

me)))))which is potentially measureable where consciousness isn't

I don't see anything to indicate that one lacks the same potential of measurement that the other does. Both would definately be hard to do and nothing in reality suggests one would be impossible.

me)))and i am asking you. where ISit. where IS consciousness plase. i wanna find it. do you know where it is?

I don't know. I would speculate it may not exceed the area of space that your brain and medulla omblangada occupy. If you really want to find it, I might suggest an educational direction of studying biology, psychology, and computer science (add physics and math if you're really hard-core). I know it's alot and it may a good combo to find that answer. I am sure you're not the only one whose asking and I suspect there are people in those fields you could collaborate with during the research phase.

ne)))but your pre-sumption is not mine cause i cant find it. it is non-locatable

That might be an issue of how we've learned to identify things. As a biological entity, our perceptions are geared towards survival in this environment... not towards seeing discreet phenomonea and saying 'oh, there it is'. The idea I was trying to communicate is that consciousness might be an effect whose actual location in space is dynamic from moment to moment and doesn't exceed the spatial boundaries of the brain / medulla o.

me))))but it has extension in space so IS measureable

The point was it may not make sense to apply some measurements to some constructs. Maybe a more extreme example is needed. I am not going to try to measure the taste of sound. The question that comes out of such a relization is does measuring the size of consciousness make sense?

me))as i said. sntience doesn't mean shit will be a scholar. i means that matter-energy is aware. is alife. shit is shit, and is part of that. process is alife. its not separate things with separate consciousnesss, cause consciousness is not 'inside' anything as it has no location...!

Aah, so it's not an instance of matter-energy thats aware (i.e. not a piece of shit)... but all matter-energy at once that's aware. I would have to ask is this a belief or is this something that reality is providing evidence for?

me))))they mightin the moment of cutting ter hand off. but regardless. they are aware. they may not have brain damage but tis doesn't mean consciousness is EFFECT of brain, surely

What's the minimum criteria for awareness? If you can't remember who you are, what you are, what the last moment was like, what the present moment is like, what 'what' is, what 'how' is, and what 'why' is what would you be aware of? There would be no thought because that requires memory. There would be no emotion (subjective experience) because that requires memory.

The moment that hand was cut off, lots of nerve cells would trigger and flow up the brain stem and eventually get to an interpretation center that could not call upon the memory to process the signal.

me))i tink you are still thinkingof it as a 'thing' that can be located. eithr in te brain of someone who has most memory, or having 'gone' somewhere. but how can someting go when it has no location?......

Again, I don't know what it is and I certainly don't know (nor do you) that it can't be located. I do know that memory is a function of the brain and have seen the observable effects on a person's consciousness when it's damaged / destroyed.

me(((((((i said that matter-energy is creative. that there i nothing BEHIND matter-energy, like 'God' or 'random frces', but IS intelligence

That's a firm assertion of truth. My question would be, is this belief or evidence-based?

me))))))so how then does subjective consciousness suddenly come from insentient matter then. devise a seriously put togther answer, and i ill--if i cant hande it--ask de Qincey himself if he can answer it. i've had several pms with him. he is one of te most apporachable and courteuos....and friendly, people i've ever met

The answer is simply "I don't know". A question that doesn't have an answer doesn't mean everyone has to rush and fill in the void with creative ideas. It means there's an opportunity to apply alot of talent and hard work into getting reality to provide an answer. This question may not be something answered in our lifetime because of our limited vocabulary to ask reality questions that we can understand, but who knows.

I want to ask a what-if question. What if the evidence is followed and in our lifetime, consciousness is explicitly defined, explored, measured, and reproduced and it's all natural effects of matter-energy? How would you feel? What would you do knowing that you strongly held onto a contradictory assertion of truth so long that turned out to be false?

Similarly, if the same events happened in our lifetime and it was discovered that all matter-energy at once is conscious and that's where human consciousness came from then I would feel satisfied to know that reality finally produced a factual answer to the question and I would have no action item of dealing with myself as I never accepted any view as truth other than what reality showed.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

oh, you reckon his ideas just 'appeal to emotion'...? well, forme they appeal to my reason to. VERY much so

His ideas meet the criteria of the phrase so definately. Human decision making process (including what is reasonable) is heavily influenced by emotion consequently.

and you claim his 'synthesis' is 'unsupported by evidence'..?

There's none that I am aware of and he didn't provide any. He just said, here is my asseretion... accept it as truth.

oh, agian. like where's zee evidence for evolution then? and forconsciousness.

For evolution, take some courses at your local college. They can provide an education that I can't on a public forum. I can however, point you in the right direction for some introductory exploration of some surface evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Evidence_of_evolution
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

For consciousness, it is self-evident. All mammals on earth (including yourself) are evidence of consciousness. Seems like an odd query at this stage in the game.

see? we are al of us without complete objective evidence as demanded by complte materialistic scientism. sooo e have to see what is plausible----have to see the much bigger picture. and where i am sitting the way you seem to adhere to is poisoning the very planet as we breathe

Humans who wield processes of thinking that are aligned to the way reality works are more likely to see what's plausable but will still err. Ultimately, we have to turn to reality. We have a question. We have to translate it into a question that reality can answer. As far as poisoning the planet is concerned, I have no idea what was meant by that.

for to begin to ee Nature as ALIVE and not some dead commodity ready for the slice up for profit--the scam thats been going on for hunderedsof fukin miserable years now, then it wont get no better. i cant see your 'alternative' has anything really going for it.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here nor what alternative is being referred to.