Precognition
- Thread starter Giambattista
- Start date
duendy said:
Not in this thread.
duendy said:
Theres a difference between the statements:
"I have seen before from other people whom tend to use 'belief' as a primary means to understand reality."
and
"I have seen before from other people whom ALSO tend to use 'belief' as a primary means to understand reality."
I used the former. You're choosing to invent implication so you can be a victim and its not the first time i've seen that behavior.
duendy said:
* I think you have the capability to think differently and grow.
* I think there is an obsticle for you on the path to doing this. That obstacle is one or more stereotypes of people whom think more like me.
* I am giving you the opportunity to remove those obsticles on your terms with evidence you ask for.
Zephyr said:
You are 100% correct. My bad (sorry Duendy).
well Crunchy cat...snapo. i see an obstacle in YOUR path
aslright lets take a sceenario then and see how we would both differing handling the event
a family claims they have had a very powerful experience. that they say a bright UFO in te sky that had a deep emotional impact on each one of them----a wide age range from gran, tru mum andtwo young boys of about 12
mum and gran tewlls you this. you are sat with them, and can see they are both VERY distressed. in fact gran breaks down, and mum comforts her
after they had seen tis flying and hovering very bright spherical pbject and felt this deep love.....suddenly an hour was missing--thewy tell you
what is REALLY distressing them is.....they do not know what hs happened. it is So in-credible tey do not know how to PROCESS it....
now, how would you repond to this family and what they are sharing with you...?
aslright lets take a sceenario then and see how we would both differing handling the event
a family claims they have had a very powerful experience. that they say a bright UFO in te sky that had a deep emotional impact on each one of them----a wide age range from gran, tru mum andtwo young boys of about 12
mum and gran tewlls you this. you are sat with them, and can see they are both VERY distressed. in fact gran breaks down, and mum comforts her
after they had seen tis flying and hovering very bright spherical pbject and felt this deep love.....suddenly an hour was missing--thewy tell you
what is REALLY distressing them is.....they do not know what hs happened. it is So in-credible tey do not know how to PROCESS it....
now, how would you repond to this family and what they are sharing with you...?
duendy said:
My response to the family would be to listen to what they said and ask questions to keep them talking.
Even I would agree with that. But I'd prefer to take it bit differently than as described and talk/listen to them individually rather than in a group or even two at a time. Then compare notes and visit each again. No doubt the stories would be different - even though all of them experienced it together. It's the degree of differences that would, pardon me - no pun intended, make the difference.Crunchy Cat said:
Crunchy Cat has taken this discussion in a more interesting direction but I will keep going with my responses anyway because I am argumentative.
I am wary of witness testimony yes. You know very well that witness testimony has been shown time and time again to be unreliable. This is something that you choose to ignore.
You are just eager to believe in something so you will accept anything as convincing evidence.
I don't accuse you of being off your head on mushies all the time and worshipping Terence Mckenna.
The trade off here is that a few random people get abducted, probed and then put back. I still think most people would prefer that they exist.
It is really quite simple duendy. I want to see evidence of these amazing abilities before I believe in them. Doesn't that sound quite logical? Isn't that more likely than me deceptively pretending to ask but with no intention of wanting to know the answer because the convincing evidence will shatter my precious world. ?duendy said:
How do you know what I have examined? You don't, but you like to think that skeptics haven't looked at evidence of the paranormal because that can be the only explanation for it not being accepted by science yet.duendy said:
Again, my criteria for evidence is higher than yours and you see that as limited.duendy said:
I am wary of witness testimony yes. You know very well that witness testimony has been shown time and time again to be unreliable. This is something that you choose to ignore.
No offence but the approach you have been describing does not sound sophisticated at all.duendy said:
You are just eager to believe in something so you will accept anything as convincing evidence.
You have no idea what I have looked at. You need to believe that I haven't seen the evidence otherwise I would be convinced like you. Perhaps I have seen the same evidence as you (possibly more) and didn't find it credible.duendy said:
You are just being immature now duendy. I have explained to you before that I have only read a few csicop articles, (you accused me of worshipping them a few months ago) I have read nothing by Carl Sagan, I just know his famous quote regarding evidence(kinda relevant) and I have hardly touched the pc in months.duendy said:
I don't accuse you of being off your head on mushies all the time and worshipping Terence Mckenna.
Now this is an interesting point. I think that although the view of the universe may appear to be less safe due to abductions, people still want to believe in aliens because a) life is more exciting and b) the confirmation that there is another race in the universe can have a profound effect on a person. If there is one race abducting maybe there is another race looking down on us and guiding us! Perhaps there are many races.duendy said:
The trade off here is that a few random people get abducted, probed and then put back. I still think most people would prefer that they exist.
Why are you denying that I have a higher standard for criteria? With your supposedly more sophisticated approach how come you belive in so much that I do not? hmmm.duendy said:
You mention him more than I do.duendy said:
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
Total communication breakdown and stereotyping of each others character and intellectual position by page 3...thats fast work
I'll tell my tale; it was couple of years ago when i was experimenting with lucid dreaming, i got pretty good at it to the point where i could slip into that state after about 5 minutes.
After a while i wanted to see if i could use these states to predict the future, i experimented by letting various images come into my mind during my lucid state and taking note of any that particularly stood out.
One night i had a very strange image came to me, it was the face of jesus, which in itself is odd since i dont believe in jesus. But weirder still was the odd cartoon quality the image had, and i remember specifically how strange it was that he had a square beard!
I came out of my state thinking...hmm well that was odd, jesus with a square beard, no idea how i came up with that. Anyway after pottering around abit i finally went to sleep, when i woke up i switched on the tv. I was pretty damn amazed to see the same image on the tv that id seen the night before in my lucid state. I thought i was tripping, so i turned the volume up to see what was going on...it turned out this program was about medieval depications of jesus christ throughout the ages. Now its worth pointing out that the image on the tv was *exactly* the same as the one id seen the night before.
If the image on the tv had just been a similar sort of picture of jesus id have put it down to coincidence but what got me was the level of detail to this image on the tv that my vision had, the picture on the tv even had the curious square beard.
I didnt delve much into lucid dreaming after that, the nearest experience ive had close to this is a kind of universal collective knowledge of everything that is or has been. Probably the most profound experience of my life.
It is a cliche but what people tend to say about these experiences is true, you have to come at the experience with a total absense of fear. If theres any fear there, even the slightest hint of 'woah hang on this is a bit too much, i dont like this anymore this is shattering my concept of what is real' in the back of your mind then these experiences (in my experience) simply wont present themselves.
I'll tell my tale; it was couple of years ago when i was experimenting with lucid dreaming, i got pretty good at it to the point where i could slip into that state after about 5 minutes.
After a while i wanted to see if i could use these states to predict the future, i experimented by letting various images come into my mind during my lucid state and taking note of any that particularly stood out.
One night i had a very strange image came to me, it was the face of jesus, which in itself is odd since i dont believe in jesus. But weirder still was the odd cartoon quality the image had, and i remember specifically how strange it was that he had a square beard!
I came out of my state thinking...hmm well that was odd, jesus with a square beard, no idea how i came up with that. Anyway after pottering around abit i finally went to sleep, when i woke up i switched on the tv. I was pretty damn amazed to see the same image on the tv that id seen the night before in my lucid state. I thought i was tripping, so i turned the volume up to see what was going on...it turned out this program was about medieval depications of jesus christ throughout the ages. Now its worth pointing out that the image on the tv was *exactly* the same as the one id seen the night before.
If the image on the tv had just been a similar sort of picture of jesus id have put it down to coincidence but what got me was the level of detail to this image on the tv that my vision had, the picture on the tv even had the curious square beard.
I didnt delve much into lucid dreaming after that, the nearest experience ive had close to this is a kind of universal collective knowledge of everything that is or has been. Probably the most profound experience of my life.
It is a cliche but what people tend to say about these experiences is true, you have to come at the experience with a total absense of fear. If theres any fear there, even the slightest hint of 'woah hang on this is a bit too much, i dont like this anymore this is shattering my concept of what is real' in the back of your mind then these experiences (in my experience
) simply wont present themselves.
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who, Sagan. know he liked his dopeshaman_ said:Crunchy Cat has taken this discussion in a more interesting direction but I will keep going with my responses anyway because I am argumentative.
me)))yeah, but alos join in WITH the CC and me, etc., dialogue andlet us know how you'd repond to that family
It is really quite simple duendy. I want to see evidence of these amazing abilities before I believe in them. Doesn't that sound quite logical? Isn't that more likely than me deceptively pretending to ask but with no intention of wanting to know the answer because the convincing evidence will shatter my precious world. ?
me))))of course i seems logical. i want to undersand to. but i seem to have different take on matter. yes there are many hoaxers. so first, do they want money? or are tey sharing with you some really unusual experience? how do you relat to it. by badgering them fo evidence? itmay only happen once in teir lives...! your mindset seems to always want conveyor-belt quantative results....do you see what i mean?
How do you know what I have examined? You don't, but you like to think that skeptics haven't looked at evidence of the paranormal because that can be the only explanation for it not being accepted by science yet.
me)))what was the last evidence you examined? and did you present your findings at this forum? if so where are tey?or at any forum, website..?
Again, my criteria for evidence is higher than yours and you see that as limited.
me)))but you keep repeating tis dont mean jack shit. its just your opinion. i a claiming 'sophisticaton' means an interdisciplinary approach to anomalous events
I am wary of witness testimony yes. You know very well that witness testimony has been shown time and time again to be unreliable. This is something that you choose to ignore.
me))))))time and time again? who says so? PSYCOPS? SAgan? omeone with a materialistic agenda? who?
as said. testomny is accepted in court. ad if people are openly sharing wid u teir weird expriences and not askin fo money, they deserve to be listened to, and with respect!
No offence but the approach you have been describing does not sound sophisticated at all.
You are just eager to believe in something so you will accept anything as convincing evidence.
me))))as usualy, patronizing. you dont know what i do. what i think. your assuming.
You have no idea what I have looked at. You need to believe that I haven't seen the evidence otherwise I would be convinced like you. Perhaps I have seen the same evidence as you (possibly more) and didn't find it credible.
You are just being immature now duendy. I have explained to you before that I have only read a few csicop articles, (you accused me of worshipping them a few months ago) I have read nothing by Carl Sagan, I just know his famous quote regarding evidence(kinda relevant) and I have hardly touched the pc in months.
me)))ooooo wasit someting i said...? and see how YOU dont like being told what YO do yet dish it out on me. tis is why we tend to go round in circls i spose. your worldview seems --o me--VERY entrenched in a materialistic outlook.
I don't accuse you of being off your head on mushies all the time and worshipping Terence Mckenna.
me))))))yes, but you've just IMPLIEDit haven't you....snidey lad
Now this is an interesting point. I think that although the view of the universe may appear to be less safe due to abductions, people still want to believe in aliens because a) life is more exciting and b) the confirmation that there is another race in the universe can have a profound effect on a person. If there is one race abducting maybe there is another race looking down on us and guiding us! Perhaps there are many races.
me))))i dont NEED to think of aliens to make me feel how amzin this universe is. psychedelic exprience was THE most amazing exprience i hav ever had.....what intrigues me about th alien ting and paranormal is from hearing people talk about experiences, and seeing various film footage and photies on this phenomena. then i am intrigued by the sceptics reaction which is NOT mine. so i was inspired to llok closer at the skeptics PHILOSOPHY they efen DENY havin/....etc
The trade off here is that a few random people get abducted, probed and then put back. I still think most people would prefer that they exist.
me))))oh yaaaah. THAT makes sense....
Why are you denying that I have a higher standard for criteria? With your supposedly more sophisticated approach how come you belive in so much that I do not? hmmm.
me))))))cuse i have read more broadly about it than you...?which includes othe fields of inquiry.....?
You mention him more than I do.
two things came to mind reading your conclusion...:heliocentric said:Total communication breakdown and stereotyping of each others character and intellectual position by page 3...thats fast work
I'll tell my tale; it was couple of years ago when i was experimenting with lucid dreaming, i got pretty good at it to the point where i could slip into that state after about 5 minutes.
After a while i wanted to see if i could use these states to predict the future, i experimented by letting various images come into my mind during my lucid state and taking note of any that particularly stood out.
One night i had a very strange image came to me, it was the face of jesus, which in itself is odd since i dont believe in jesus. But weirder still was the odd cartoon quality the image had, and i remember specifically how strange it was that he had a square beard!
I came out of my state thinking...hmm well that was odd, jesus with a square beard, no idea how i came up with that. Anyway after pottering around abit i finally went to sleep, when i woke up i switched on the tv. I was pretty damn amazed to see the same image on the tv that id seen the night before in my lucid state. I thought i was tripping, so i turned the volume up to see what was going on...it turned out this program was about medieval depications of jesus christ throughout the ages. Now its worth pointing out that the image on the tv was *exactly* the same as the one id seen the night before.
If the image on the tv had just been a similar sort of picture of jesus id have put it down to coincidence but what got me was the level of detail to this image on the tv that my vision had, the picture on the tv even had the curious square beard.
I didnt delve much into lucid dreaming after that, the nearest experience ive had close to this is a kind of universal collective knowledge of everything that is or has been. Probably the most profound experience of my life.
It is a cliche but what people tend to say about these experiences is true, you have to come at the experience with a total absense of fear. If theres any fear there, even the slightest hint of 'woah hang on this is a bit too much, i dont like this anymore this is shattering my concept of what is real' in the back of your mind then these experiences (in my experience
a))it is true i feel that is someone decides on a materialistic version of reality then that is what they will actualize----for as you say, fear and doubt can counteract such events as your experience....
yet
b)))some peple may experience incredible events even THO they may be doubtful, and fearful, ad materialistic etc
Yes. I want credible evidence where you are willing to accept less. You make excuses to justify this.duendy said:
Are actually you criticising me for not actively posting or contributing? What does that have to do with anything? Do you actually want to know the last thing I looked at?duendy said:
Of course it is. So are your posts.duendy said:
Are you playing dumb? Take your blinkers off duendy. You should remember this thread. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=45461duendy said:
Re-read some of skinwalkers posts. (Now that I have made a reference to him you will accuse me of worshipping him
)Hey you mentioned sagan again! Ding.
No it is an observation, what you would call 'savvy'.duendy said:
Yes I know about the materialistic outlook thing duendy, you have mentioned that before.duendy said:
That was not my intention. I really was just trying to make a point.duendy said:
No you don't need to believe in them but with the evidence presented so far you have chosen to.duendy said:
Actually my ecstacy experiences were more profound than my psychedelic experiences. Maybe its a generation thing, then again I have yet to try shrooms.
Explain why it does not. I am talking about people preferring to belive that star wars/trek is happening right above us in space OR no other life in an empty solar system.duendy said:
Which is better? Do you at least see my point?
no i dont........)))))))))))))))((((shaman_ said:Yes. I want credible evidence where you are willing to accept less. You make excuses to justify this.
Are actually you criticising me for not actively posting or contributing? What does that have to do with anything? Do you actually want to know the last thing I looked at?
me))))no i want examples of how ytou examine evidence and presnt alternative evidence. its YOU who keeps goin on about it laddie...
Of course it is. So are your posts.
Are you playing dumb? Take your blinkers off duendy. You should remember this thread. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=45461
me))))hmmmpgh. ypou can dig that up but not you and your evidence milarchy?
Re-read some of skinwalkers posts. (Now that I have made a reference to him you will accuse me of worshipping him
me)))would sooner chew razors eyeball rollr
Hey you mentioned sagan again! Ding.
me))))no...itserrr yu who mention him. whay would i?
No it is an observation, what you would call 'savvy'.
Yes I know about the materialistic outlook thing duendy, you have mentioned that before.
me))but it doesn't seem to hold your interest. yu seem to imagine it a side issue
That was not my intention. I really was just trying to make a point.
No you don't need to believe in them but with the evidence presented so far you have chosen to.
Actually my ecstacy experiences were more profound than my psychedelic experiences. Maybe its a generation thing, then again I have yet to try shrooms.
me))the drug 'Ecstasy' is NOT a psychedelic!
Explain why it does not. I am talking about people preferring to belive that star wars/trek is happening right above us in space OR no other life in an empty solar system.
Which is better? Do you at least see my point?
duendy said:
If my 'BS detector' didn't go off then I would likely commit to something along the lines of:
"I can see that this experience is very important and that you desperately want to know the truth about what happened. I might be able to help you get closer to that truth and it would require a committment from everyone (including myself) to be open about our lives, the positive and negative, and to do whatever it takes to explore the experience in depth, find external evidence, and possibly even reproduce the experience. The best outcome would be to figure out exactly what happened and the worst outcome is to remain where we are today indefinately with a big question mark."
heliocentric said:Total communication breakdown and stereotyping of each others character and intellectual position by page 3...thats fast work
I'll tell my tale; it was couple of years ago when i was experimenting with lucid dreaming, i got pretty good at it to the point where i could slip into that state after about 5 minutes.
After a while i wanted to see if i could use these states to predict the future, i experimented by letting various images come into my mind during my lucid state and taking note of any that particularly stood out.
One night i had a very strange image came to me, it was the face of jesus, which in itself is odd since i dont believe in jesus. But weirder still was the odd cartoon quality the image had, and i remember specifically how strange it was that he had a square beard!
I came out of my state thinking...hmm well that was odd, jesus with a square beard, no idea how i came up with that. Anyway after pottering around abit i finally went to sleep, when i woke up i switched on the tv. I was pretty damn amazed to see the same image on the tv that id seen the night before in my lucid state. I thought i was tripping, so i turned the volume up to see what was going on...it turned out this program was about medieval depications of jesus christ throughout the ages. Now its worth pointing out that the image on the tv was *exactly* the same as the one id seen the night before.
If the image on the tv had just been a similar sort of picture of jesus id have put it down to coincidence but what got me was the level of detail to this image on the tv that my vision had, the picture on the tv even had the curious square beard.
I didnt delve much into lucid dreaming after that, the nearest experience ive had close to this is a kind of universal collective knowledge of everything that is or has been. Probably the most profound experience of my life.
It is a cliche but what people tend to say about these experiences is true, you have to come at the experience with a total absense of fear. If theres any fear there, even the slightest hint of 'woah hang on this is a bit too much, i dont like this anymore this is shattering my concept of what is real' in the back of your mind then these experiences (in my experience
That's pretty cool. As a black-belt lucid dreamer of 25 years, that type of experience is something I've run across from time to time. For me, fear has never helped nor hindered fantastic dreaming experiences. Resistance does however. Lucid dreams can be combined with nightmares and I've used resistance to lessen / negate the impact of pain.
Tell me more about that universal collective knowledge experience. It sounds killer.
duendy said:
Not at all and it does give me a jolt of pleasure to discover and create things.
duendy said:
Let's say, for example, it was discovered that the affected family had a high amount of some chemical in their blood stream from an unexpected toxin in their water supply and further study revealed the chemical reduced electrical activity in 2 specific parts of the brain. A hypothesis may be that extreme reduction of electrical activity in those parts of the brain leads to a very similar type of visual, audio, tactile, and emotional hallucination and that hypothesis could be tested by applying TMS to those same parts of the brain.
If the TMS results reproduced the experience then not only would the truth have been discovered, the experience would have been nicely reproduced in a controlled setting.
Light said:
Thats a really good strategy and it wouldn't work in a high-emotional situation like the one duendy presented because initially, the 'guest' listener is on their terms and humans will typically resist doing anything above and beyond what they want to do in such situatiions.
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
Ah well, i wasnt saying that a lack of resistance to fear was needed in order to lucid dream, youre right its not something that helps or hinders that type of experience. I was refering to universal knowlege type experiences when i was talking about fear.Crunchy Cat said:
About the experience itself: i was in a club with some friends we all took the same batch of mdma pills. However when i 'came up' i was amazed at how good i felt i assumed that they were just really good quality pills with a high level of mdma in them for me to feel as good as i was.
I was sat down around the out-skirts of the dance floor with my best friend next to me, i found myself being hypnotised by the tribal like rhythms of the music. As this continued it felt right to close my eyes, as it continued further it felt even more right to place both of my hands on my knees but with the palms facing up. I have no idea why this position felt 'right' at the time, ive never done it before and im not muslim or religious in any way. Although thinking back i do wonder if id stumbled apon the original purpose of this gesture/position within the islmaic faith. I think something about the posture aids an openness and helps to foster communication with the universe around us, although as with most cultural practices the original intention and meaning gets lost and degenerates into 'tradition'. (although this is all speculation of course).
Anyway, after a minute of being in this position i felt a strong sense of peace, love (not uncommon with the mdma experience) but what got me was this feeling of knowledge, so much knowledge that it was impossible to really pick anything out. It sounds funny but it was somewhat like in the film the matrix when neo can simply 'download' information about anything from his database and instantly know everything about military strategy, or kung fu.
It felt like i had stumbled apon a sort of universal data-base of knowledge that was ever present but for the most part out of grasp to the human mind.
I opened my eyes for a second in this instant spotted a guy on the dance floor, i had the oddest feeling, i knew in that moment that i could enter his body if i so wished.
That freaked me out, since i somehow 'knew' i could do this much in the same way that day to day i know that if i was to jump off a high ledge i would break some of my bones. At the time it just felt obvious that i could do this. I didnt atempt this though, since this feeling of simply knowing i could was enough for me at the time. Whether i could have i simply dont know, all i can tell you is that in that instant i knew i could and it would have been the most natural thing in the world.
I closed my eyes and went back into my trance for a while, it seemed like certain peices of information were comming forward a bit more clearly. I had an inner voice say 'mum's in trouble' (she was diagnosed with breast cancer 2 months latter). After that inner voice i opened my eyes, and decided that was enough, i didnt want this intensity of experience and i was getting a little scared, i spent the rest of the night just talking to people in the club.
Ive since wondered if the pill was laced with ketamine, ive heard the drug can bring about experiences such as this but i really dont know. I can only say ive never touched an E before or since that had such a profound effect on me in that way.
It is the topic of our discussion, of course I keep mentioning it. Focus duendy!duendy said:
Now I need to produce documented investigations I have done? You are demanding duendy. I don't have anything documented but you know I would adhere to scientific method.
Evidence malarchy? What are you talking about?duendy said:
I have noticed that if I argue with you for long enough your responses become terrible. I guess you lose interest which is understandable.
Thats a shame. There are some good points made (with references). You realise that it is hypocritical of you to avoid looking at evidence that you don't like?duendy said:
You have already been hypocritical regarding the condescending assumptions you complain about.
No kidding. I did not say it was.duendy said:
I suspect you are not trying which is not that suprising.duendy said: