Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Sure it can go that way. It also goes the other way. As for skepticism, why is it that all the "professional skeptics" (Michael Shermers and Randi's of the world) are never skeptical of government pronouncements or scientific consensus?

Well, I don't know about that--and I'm not so sure that I put that much into those who bill themselves as "professional skeptics" (which is to say that neither of them two fellas is exactly my cuppa). To the former, there are plenty of respected (and deeply critical) Chomskys; and to the latter, there are likewise plenty of Feyerabends.

I think that your contention might really be that none of these sorts are exactly mainstream--but isn't that kinda the nature of those who question?
 
Meanwhile, there are reports that the HUGE LUXURIOUS worthy-of-its-own-center-spread-in-Architectural Digest million US dollar home was "once" an ISI safe house

Do you have a link? That's interesting. Is it surprising? Not these days.


lilalena said:
If there are still no pictures 2 weeks from now then I would really start to wonder.

Given that all we've had so far is the government's word on it I'd say 'where's the hard evidence' is a valid question so

Very valid. I'm more cynical. I am, as of late, not willing to trust government on most subjects these days unless they can provide good evidence.

Dumping the body so quickly to me is suspicious. They claim on one hand that no government would have him on their soil (???) at least I heard that once or twice, and then they say his grave would be a shrine. Those two explanations seem to be at odds with each other, especially if Pakistan was knowingly giving him quarter.
They apparently were quick to honor him with an Islamic burial at sea (?) but if they don't want to offend anyone, why even announce his death?
Would we even know if they hadn't? Would anyone have noticed?
 
And thats another question - if that house with two dozen people living in such cramped conditions with such cheap ugly furniture and poor furnishings is how Americans imagine billionaire Arabs live, I should clearly have visited a few homes of the rich and famous in the US. Based on my own experience even hospital drivers in Saudi Arabia making 5 figure salaries a year live in less cramped more affluent conditions.

Meanwhile, there are reports that the HUGE LUXURIOUS worthy-of-its-own-center-spread-in-Architectural Digest million US dollar home was "once" an ISI safe house

Well if the house was cramped, poor old Osama has only himself to blame for having far, far more kids than he could ever hope to personally care for and support. And I'll say that the house issue isn't terribly important as far as living conditions are concerned- from the reports I've read over the years about some of the caves Al Qaeda built, some of them were even more comfy than a $1 million mansion.
 
Do you have a link? That's interesting. Is it surprising? Not these days.

Yeah in the same post

They claim on one hand that no government would have him on their soil (???) at least I heard that once or twice, and then they say his grave would be a shrine. Those two explanations seem to be at odds with each other, especially if Pakistan was knowingly giving him quarter.

Thats false. Are you telling me that the woman who rushed at armed men to protect her husband would not claim his body? That all his so affluent family members who were able to get the US government to get them the first flights out of NY in 2001 and who practically own the Saudis; and all of his children with their untold wealth could not do anything about it? That his so influential mother, stepfather, brothers and sons could do nothing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Laden_family

They could have buried him right there in the compound, since he apparently owned the place - you don't need government permission for a private burial on privately owned land by residents who own the property.
They apparently were quick to honor him with an Islamic burial at sea (?) but if they don't want to offend anyone, why even announce his death?
Would we even know if they hadn't? Would anyone have noticed?

What bothers me most is - this is the most wanted man in the western world and NOT one single media person could be found to corroborate the event and identify the body?
 
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Well, I don't know about that--and I'm not so sure that I put that much into those who bill themselves as "professional skeptics" (which is to say that neither of them two fellas is exactly my cuppa). To the former, there are plenty of respected (and deeply critical) Chomskys; and to the latter, there are likewise plenty of Feyerabends.

All those in the Skeptical Inquirer crowd are almost too much.

Some would call Chomsky a sort of soft critic. A safe plateau that only goes so far. Not hardcore enough.

Feyerabend.. vaguely know the name. Science philosophy I believe.


I think that your contention might really be that none of these sorts are exactly mainstream--but isn't that kinda the nature of those who question?

The reason I mention Chomsky as a "soft critic" is some have questioned his views on 9.11 and that he said alternative theories were unimportant. May not be mainstream. May go so far in questioning, but has that certain limit where he won't go. Like Assange.

The former "professional" skeptics I would consider mainstream, in that they mostly seem to shoot down any outside the box thinking, and defend status quo.

I don't know. You're hurting my brain now! :eek:
 
More on the two men seen by the locals:

The two men killed with Osama bin Laden on Sunday night in Pakistan's Abbottabad have been identified as Arshad and Tariq Khan. According to media reports they both are Pakistanis. Osama bin Laden's neighbours said, the two men were some low-key businessman and were probably brothers or cousins. There are also reports that the elder among the two, Arshad, who was around 40-years-old had bought the land and built the house in which the al Qaeda chief lived.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/2-men-killed-with-Osama-bin-Laden-were-Pakistanis/Article1-693191.aspx

And now the number of people has gone up to three dozen, with 23 children

Osama bin Laden may not have been living in the lap of luxury inside his 3,000 square foot house in an upscale neighborhood in Pakistan.

The house has been described as a mansion with luxury vehicles parked outside. But the walls are stained with mold and the windows are hidden.

Some three dozen people, including 23 children, shared the three-story house surrounded by walls as high as 18 feet topped with barbed wire. Neighbors say the people inside rarely strayed outside, but two men could be seen routinely running errands.


http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/3e787faa-www.wlos.com.shtml
 
Yeah in the same post

OMG! You changed it after the fact! TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE!!! Quick, take the link, and drop it over the ocean! Give it a proper burial!
... i'll check it. Thanks.


Thats false. Are you telling me that the woman who rushed at armed men to protect her husband would not claim his body? That all his so affluent family members who were able to get the US government to get them the first flights out of NY in 2001 and who practically own the Saudis; and all of his children with their untold wealth could not do anything about it? That his so influential mother, stepfather, brothers and sons could do nothing?
Well, I don't know. If it was who they say it was, I would think an arrangement could easily be made. They do have connections, and the stipulation could have been for a secret burial, or several decoy burials, if they were so concerned about his burial becoming a shrine. But I'm not sure I'm buying the "shrine" explanation.

SAM said:
What bothers me most is - this is the most wanted man in the western world and NOT one single media person could be found to corroborate the event and identify the body?

When I first heard, I thought "Oh, which body double was that?"
Then I heard he was badly disfigured, I thought "Oh, so we can see a bloody deformed body with obscured facial features?"
Then I heard he needed to be buried within 24 hours.
Shortly after that, I heard he had already been dumped in the ocean. Then I thought "Oh, there goes the body of evidence!" :wave: buh bye!

No matter who it was, it seems obvious to me that they were aiming for plausible deniability. Now that it's gone, there is no way to say.
I'm just not finding any faith in my "unpatriotic" heart for the excuses around the hasty disposal of the corpus. If there was one, or if there was a burial at sea of something.
For all we know, the wrong guy was killed. We'll never know now that the evidence has been destroyed.

How did they identify the body anyway?

Here's something you could probably answer: How long does DNA identification take? Quick enough to have taken place between the murder and the disposal?
 
Here's something you could probably answer: How long does DNA identification take? Quick enough to have taken place between the murder and the disposal?

A regular PCR in a basic lab could be conducted in one hour. But the problem is - this is a test of comparison. IOW, you run a known sample of the victims DNA against an unknown sample

So what sample did they use for comparison?

This is the procedure used by the US DOJ for identifying victims by DNA [pdf file]

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/209493.pdf
 
All those in the Skeptical Inquirer crowd are almost too much.

Some would call Chomsky a sort of soft critic. A safe plateau that only goes so far. Not hardcore enough.

Feyerabend.. vaguely know the name. Science philosophy I believe.
Yeah, this guy. I highly recommend his Against Method: Towards An Anarchic Epistemology--he sorta picks up where Kuhn left off, and where Foucault got kinda sloppy in the details.

The reason I mention Chomsky as a "soft critic" is some have questioned his views on 9.11 and that he said alternative theories were unimportant. May not be mainstream. May go so far in questioning, but has that certain limit where he won't go. Like Assange.
I find some of his views regarding 9/11 a little tame, but I suspect that he holds the view that in focusing too much upon the myriad of alternate theories--especially some of the really wack ones--a person is inclined to ignore the all the legitimate questions even the "official story" invites. Alternately, those disinclined towards questioning at all do tend to paint all who question with a broad stroke on the basis of some of the more wack theories.

The former "professional" skeptics I would consider mainstream, in that they mostly seem to shoot down any outside the box thinking, and defend status quo.
The thing is, that's partly why I come here. Politically, I inhabit a region somewhere betwixt a highly structuralist form of Marxism and a rather poststructuralist form of anarchism. And not surprisingly, I don't find a whole lot of comrades at a place called "sciforums." For that matter, I don't find a whole lot of comrades anywhere, as most of the former tend to lean very heavily towards the one or the other.

So I come here looking for intelligent "conservative" or right-wing rebuttals to my own perspective. As those are typically lacking, I can at least find some thoughtful and challenging contrary views from the more "liberal" (i.e. less extremist) crowd.
 
A regular PCR in a basic lab could be conducted in one hour. But the problem is - this is a test of comparison. IOW, you run a known sample of the victims DNA against an unknown sample

So what sample did they use for comparison?

This is the procedure used by the US DOJ for identifying victims by DNA [pdf file]

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/209493.pdf

Okay, that answers a question I just had, comparing to familial relations.
That's plausible.
 
Yeah, this guy. I highly recommend his Against Method: Towards An Anarchic Epistemology--he sorta picks up where Kuhn left off, and where Foucault got kinda sloppy in the details.

I've come across his name before in appropriate places. Perhaps I will look into him.

I find some of his views regarding 9/11 a little tame, but I suspect that he holds the view that in focusing too much upon the myriad of alternate theories--especially some of the really wack ones--a person is inclined to ignore the all the legitimate questions even the "official story" invites. Alternately, those disinclined towards questioning at all do tend to paint all who question with a broad stroke on the basis of some of the more wack theories.

A fair proposition, I think, in a nutshell.

I heard he changed his views somewhat recently, but don't take that to the bank.

The thing is, that's partly why I come here. Politically, I inhabit a region somewhere betwixt a highly structuralist form of Marxism and a rather poststructuralist form of anarchism.
Eh? What goobleygookley you talk about?
Postructuralist anarchism in a soundbite is .... ????

Continue this dialog, I like to be mind-raped! ;)

And not surprisingly, I don't find a whole lot of comrades at a place called "sciforums." For that matter, I don't find a whole lot of comrades anywhere, as most of the former tend to lean very heavily towards the one or the other.
Some of us don't, it is true. Let's categorize ourselves, I say.

So I come here looking for intelligent "conservative" or right-wing rebuttals to my own perspective. As those are typically lacking, I can at least find some thoughtful and challenging contrary views from the more "liberal" (i.e. less extremist) crowd.

Can you define conservative or liberal? I'll challenge you, but I don't know where you are, or where am I...
So, uh. Well... ummm....
 
Interesting. Carlotta Gall seems to have accessed neighbors missed by local journalists in their tweets.

But still, this is the info age, so keep them coming

Well, I've heard that no one can concretely say they knew they were living next to The Man Himself.

It's very confusing, especially when you're depending on info from a strange, far off place.
 
Okay, that answers a question I just had, comparing to familial relations.
That's plausible.

Now that is a different kind of test, because it would involve DNA fingerprinting in order to look for similar regions of the genome between two disparate individuals - the standard methods compare between nuclear genomes and mitochondrial DNA for paternal and maternal descent respectively but these are not specific to the individual and can only denote proportionality of familial descent. [since Osama has no full siblings who share both his parental DNA one can only hope for 25% of common genetic origin between his siblings and him and since genetic material gets randomised that proportion is decreased even further. Moreover both his parents had plenty of children - 53 others on his fathers side and 5 on his mothers so unless all children are accounted for, the most one could indicate is that it could be Osama or one of his [male] siblings]

And thats not even considering all the blood relatives on his fathers side and on his mothers side whose history is relatively unknown

I used to run DGGE gels for bacterial DNA fingerprints against known standards which required both cloning and sequencing and the gel runs would be anything between 8 hours to 17 hours. I'm assuming, with the complexity of the human genome it would take much much longer at least a week of intensive efforts

Of course, this is not really my field of expertise and there may be advanced methods available which I am unaware of - forensics is an entirely different field from nutrition.

edit: A summary of the method

For the individual

The method of DNA profiling used today is based on PCR and uses short tandem repeats (STR) a type of VNTR. This method uses highly polymorphic regions that have short repeated sequences of DNA (the most common is 4 bases repeated, but there are other lengths in use, including 3 and 5 bases). Because unrelated people almost certainly have different numbers of repeat units, STRs can be used to discriminate between unrelated individuals. These STR loci (locations on a chromosome) are targeted with sequence-specific primers and amplified using PCR. The DNA fragments that result are then separated and detected using electrophoresis. There are two common methods of separation and detection, capillary electrophoresis (CE) and gel electrophoresis.

Each STR is polymorphic, however, the number of alleles is very small. Typically each STR allele will be shared by around 5 - 20% of individuals. The power of STR analysis comes from looking at multiple STR loci simultaneously. The pattern of alleles can identify an individual quite accurately. Thus STR analysis provides an excellent identification tool. The more STR regions that are tested in an individual the more discriminating the test becomes.

From country to country, different STR-based DNA-profiling systems are in use. In North America, systems which amplify the CODIS 13 core loci are almost universal, while in the UK the SGM+ 10 loci system (which is compatible with The National DNA Database), is in use. Whichever system is used, many of the STR regions used are the same. These DNA-profiling systems are based on multiplex reactions, whereby many STR regions will be tested at the same time.

The true power of STR analysis is in its statistical power of discrimination. Because the 13 loci that are currently used for discrimination in CODIS are independently assorted (having a certain number of repeats at one locus doesn't change the likelihood of having any number of repeats at any other locus), the product rule for probabilities can be applied. This means that if someone has the DNA type of ABC, where the three loci were independent, we can say that the probability of having that DNA type is the probability of having type A times the probability of having type B times the probability of having type C. This has resulted in the ability to generate match probabilities of 1 in a quintillion (1 with 18 zeros after it) or more. However, DNA database searches showed much more frequent than expected false DNA profile matches including one perfect 13 locus match out of only 30,000 DNA samples in Maryland in January 2007.[6] Moreover, since there are about 12 million monozygotic twins on Earth, the theoretical probability is not accurate.

In practice, the risk of contaminated-matching is much greater than matching a distant relative, such as a sample being contaminated from nearby objects, or from left-over cells transferred from a prior test. Logically, the risk is greater for matching the most common person in the samples: everything collected from, or in contact with, a victim is a major source of contamination for any other samples brought into a lab. For that reason, multiple control-samples are typically tested, to ensure that they stayed clean, when prepared during the same period as the actual test samples. Unexpected matches (or variations) in several control-samples indicates a high probability of contamination for the actual test samples. In a relationship test, the full DNA profiles should differ (except for twins), to prove that a person wasn't actually matched as being related to their own DNA in another sample.

For familial analysis:

DNA family relationship analysis

Using PCR technology, DNA analysis is widely applied to determine genetic family relationships such as paternity, maternity, siblingship and other kinships.

During conception, the father’s sperm cell and the mother’s egg cell, each containing half the amount of DNA found in other body cells, meet and fuse to form a fertilized egg, called a zygote. The zygote contains a complete set of DNA molecules, a unique combination of DNA from both parents. This zygote divides and multiplies into an embryo and later, a full human being.

At each stage of development, all the cells forming the body contain the same DNA—half from the father and half from the mother. This fact allows the relationship testing to use all types of all samples including loose cells from the cheeks collected using buccal swabs, blood or other types of samples.

While a lot of DNA contains information for a certain function, there is some called junk DNA, which is currently used for human identification. At some special locations (called loci) in the junk DNA, predictable inheritance patterns were found to be useful in determining biological relationships. These locations contain specific DNA markers that DNA scientists use to identify individuals. In a routine DNA paternity test, the markers used are Short Tandem Repeats (STRs), short pieces of DNA that occur in highly differential repeat patterns among individuals.

Each person’s DNA contains two copies of these markers—one copy inherited from the father and one from the mother. Within a population, the markers at each person’s DNA location could differ in length and sometimes sequence, depending on the markers inherited from the parents.

The combination of marker sizes found in each person makes up his/her unique genetic profile. When determining the relationship between two individuals, their genetic profiles are compared to see if they share the same inheritance patterns at a statistically conclusive rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling
 
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This just keeps getting better and better.

Now we not only have almost a dozen children, but also a dozen adults, i.e. three families living in a haveli where locals only ever saw the two men

Those poor women and children..

So the official reports claim the helicopter of the Americans was detonated.

That bin Laden was with his wife in his bedroom by themselves.

That US troops broke into the house through the wall

That they shot the wife in the ankle and Easter Osama who was unarmed but "resisting"
Yep..

And thats all she said.

Question: if he was "unarmed but resisting" why didn't they shoot him in the legs? Why in the head?
He's 6'4". He would be hard to manouver if they had to carry him out and he would have struggled. I honestly do not see him as being the meek follower, do you?


I have to ask, why shouldn't they have shot him in the head?


The atrocities committed by this man. Did you expect them to pat him on the back and ask him over for dinner?


This man knew he was being hunted, he knew wars were started to try to find him or any links to him. So he builds a nice large house, moves in with the wives and the children who hadn't managed to escape and seek asylum elsewhere to get away from him and locks them up in said house for a number of years, while the couriers or "the help" went out and bought them all pepsi, coca cola and nestle milk, along with other choice products (irony.. hates America but uses American and imported products).. for years. Because you know, that's how he rolled.. Meanwhile he led a group that killed thousands of people, changed how most of the world lived (for the worst).. there he was drinking coke..


But as he recounts in a book co-written with his mother, Omar — now 28 years old — found it hard to give up hope that a man who had killed so many people might one day turn his back on violence and become a normal father. The younger bin Laden fled Afghanistan only when it become clear that Osama was planning a massive attack on the U.S., but he still couldn't accept that his father was responsible for 9/11 until months later, when he heard the familiar voice on audiotape claiming credit for the attacks. "That was the moment to set aside the dream I had indulged, feverishly hoping the world was wrong and it was not my father who brought about that horrible day," he writes. "This knowledge drives me into the blackest hole."

-----------------------------------------------------

As the first book written about Osama bin Laden with help from anyone in the bin Laden family, Growing Up bin Laden: Osama's Wife and Son Take Us Inside Their Secret World (St. Martin's Press) is a valuable — if limited — glimpse into the personal life of the world's most wanted man. In recollections from Omar and his mother Najwa bin Laden (the first of Osama's five known wives), and with the assistance of American author Jean Sasson, the book paints a picture of Osama as a towering figure whose noble demeanor inspired fierce loyalty, but also an absolute authoritarian who wanted as many wives and children as possible in order to have foot soldiers for Islamic jihad. "My sons, your limbs must react to my thinking as though my brain was in your head," he told his children when they complained about their life in al-Qaeda camps.

--------------------------------------------------------

Step by step, Omar found himself stuck on the violent path of his father's choosing. Forced by American pressure to leave Sudan for Afghanistan, Osama settled his family in stone huts high on a mountain in Tora Bora, despite the fact that Najwa was pregnant with her 10th child. Osama sent his sons to al-Qaeda training camps, to the front lines of the Afghan civil war and to attend hours of mind-numbing jihadist indoctrination. Omar and his father narrowly survived a U.S. cruise-missile strike that was launched in retaliation for the al-Qaeda bomb attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa. All the while Osama expected Omar to become his second-in-command. The young man had somehow managed to develop into a serious, capable young adult even as many of his siblings appeared to have suffered from one kind or another of personality disorder related to their extreme upbringing. One day while sitting together on the bin Laden mountain, Osama revealed to Omar his plan to destroy the U.S. from within by making it bleed through constant war until Muslims ruled the world. But Omar wasn't interested. "I sat mute, feeling not one jolt of passion for my father's life," he writes. "I only wanted him to be like other fathers, concerned with his work and his family."

Still, ever the dutiful Saudi son, Omar couldn't bring himself to break with his family until the day that his father asked his sons to volunteer for suicide missions. When Omar protested, Osama replied, "You hold no more a place in my heart than any man or boy in the entire country. This is true for all my sons." Omar writes, "I finally knew exactly where I stood. My father hated his enemies more than he loved his sons." With rumors of a massive attack on bin Laden's enemies on the way, Omar finally managed to leave Afghanistan, with his father's permission.



(Source)



Do you think the man deserved better?


You appear to be going through the stages of grief and grasping at every excuse as to why this man should not have been killed, from his supposed dialysis machine to his age.. all while ignoring all that this man has done.

Let me know when you reach the final stage and then we'll talk..
 
He's 6'4". He would be hard to manouver if they had to carry him out and he would have struggled. I honestly do not see him as being the meek follower, do you

I guess I overestimate the ability of an elite task force to withstand the unarmed resistance from a single old man in the middle of the night in his bedroom
I have to ask, why shouldn't they have shot him in the head?

For one thing, because in a democracy, people who value justice should also value due process. Otherwise, what distinguishes a terrorist from jurisprudence?

Do you think the man deserved better?


You appear to be going through the stages of grief and grasping at every excuse as to why this man should not have been killed, from his supposed dialysis machine to his age.. all while ignoring all that this man has done.

Let me know when you reach the final stage and then we'll talk..

Seriously? I should base my opinion of due process on what his son wrote in an autobiography? As far as I am concerned he is a person and like any serial killer or mass murderer or child rapist - should not be assassinated no matter how much the public would enjoy a lynching or a witch trial - but should be subject to the law of the land.

Elsewhere nirakar made a point about Bill Clinton being responsible for 6 million deaths. Would you recommend an assassination squad mow down his family in the middle of the night because he "deserves" it?

Decisions based on emotion are always irrational. Thats why we have a legal system to take care of the criminals and not a system of vigilante justice based on who "deserves" what

Oooh this is toooo serious

Time for laughs:
UN to Investigate Bin Laden’s Execution for Evidence of War Crimes

A spokesman for the United Nations has stated that his 100% independent and impartial world body is to send a panel of experts to Pakistan to verify claims that the American military committed war crimes while exterminating Osama bin Laden.

bin%20laden%20dead%202.jpg


“Ban Ki Moon has already hand-picked three experts in their field and they will shortly be flying to the location outside Abbottabad where Mr. Bin-Laden was killed. The Secretary-General and numerous human rights groups are extremely concerned with the way the US Navy SEAL team responsible for Mr. bin Laden’s death paid absolutely no heed to collateral damage and displayed a callous disregard for the safety of nearby civilians”,the spokesman stated, adding

“the flagrant triumphalism that is currently on show in the United States is very distasteful to our precious bleeding-heart sensibilities and we request the American population to kindly tone down their celebrations in order to avoid offending their Muslim citizens. We also urge the White House to ensure that a reconciliation process is promptly initiated, otherwise peace will never ever be achieved between Muslims and the western world”,

The Association of White Masters, on the other hand, has welcomed the news of the Al Qaeda leader’s death. Barack Obama addressed his citizens a few hours ago,

“I am happy to confirm that Osama bin Laden has been killed on my directive. This makes bombing Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion all worth it, and I can now finally say that I have truly earned that Nobel Peace Prize. We carried out a quick DNA test on the corpse and tossed it into the sea before anyone else could see it. We expect Al Qaeda to admit defeat and lay down their arms, and in no way will they celebrate bin Laden as a martyr and launch reprisal attacks on us. Oh, and finally, let me just remind you all that election season over here starts next year.”

http://www.tamilnet.tv/news/2011/12...laden’s-execution-for-evidence-of-war-crimes/
 
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I guess I overestimate the ability of an elite task force to withstand the unarmed resistance from a single old man in the middle of the night in his bedroom

Ah, a new narrative to this.. "single old man"..



For one thing, because in a democracy, people who value justice should also value due process. Otherwise, what distinguishes a terrorist from jurisprudence?
It wasn't a democracy, was it?

It wasn't a democracy when he ordered his son's to become suicide bombers, just as it wasn't a democracy when he had others kill thousands of innocent civilians...

Seriously? I should base my opinion of due process on what his son wrote in an autobiography? As far as I am concerned he is a person and like any serial killer or mass murderer or child rapist - should not be assassinated no matter how much the public would enjoy a lynching or a witch trial - but should be subject to the law of the land.
What could his son possibly know of the man, eh? After all, the son witnessed how his father's friends treated the boy they raped, by killing the boy.. he saw and witnessed his father's men killing and torturing the child's pets because his father said they were Jews, he was subjected to beatings and abuse for years, to the point where his sibblings suffered mentally with deep psychological scars, this was on top of the planning of destroying the West and ordering bombings and suicide missions.. I mean, what could his son and his first wife have known of it all?

How your tune has changed.


Elsewhere nirakar made a point about Bill Clinton being responsible for 6 million deaths. Would you recommend an assassination squad mow down his family in the middle of the night because he "deserves" it?
Do you equate them as being somewhat the same?

Decisions based on emotion are always irrational. Thats why we have a legal system to take care of the criminals and not a system of vigilante justice based on who "deserves" what
Where on this planet do you think he would have gotten a trial that was devoid of any emotion?


The Seals employed your apparent preferred method, only instead of using their bare hands, they shot him in the head.;)

Personally I'd have dragged him outside alive, bathed him in honey and sat him on a fire ant nest for 24 hours, before treating his wounds and then doing it again and again until there was nothing left of him. But that's just me.
 
What could his son possibly know of the man, eh? After all, the son witnessed how his father's friends treated the boy they raped, by killing the boy.. he saw and witnessed his father's men killing and torturing the child's pets because his father said they were Jews, he was subjected to beatings and abuse for years, to the point where his sibblings suffered mentally with deep psychological scars, this was on top of the planning of destroying the West and ordering bombings and suicide missions.. I mean, what could his son and his first wife have known of it all?

Huh? What does any of this have to do with his summary execution by an assassination squad without due process? Is this why the SEAL team killed him? Can we expect SEAL members to now mow down those Americans who rape and kill children in Afghanistan?


Do you equate them as being somewhat the same?

Before the law? Yes definitely. Do you not think so?

Personally I'd have dragged him outside alive, bathed him in honey and sat him on a fire ant nest for 24 hours, before treating his wounds and then doing it again and again until there was nothing left of him. But that's just me.

Yup that is you. Not me, I don't believe in revenge fantasies. Self defence yes, not revenge
 
For one thing, because in a democracy, people who value justice should also value due process. Otherwise, what distinguishes a terrorist from jurisprudence?

Agreed.
What kind of democracy can be exported from a government that condones pretty much the same behavior as those whom it maligns?
Or supports the very same people that it later demonizes?

Libya is an ongoing example. I've asked elsewhere about the moral character of some of the revolutionaries involved.

Elsewhere nirakar made a point about Bill Clinton being responsible for 6 million deaths. Would you recommend an assassination squad mow down his family in the middle of the night because he "deserves" it?

Obviously you are referring mostly to foreigners, but there's always the question of domestic deaths as well.

SAM said:
Decisions based on emotion are always irrational. Thats why we have a legal system to take care of the criminals and not a system of vigilante justice based on who "deserves" what

That's a real concern with all the Constitutional circumvention (irrelevancies?) that have been touted as so necessary in this age of the war on terror. Should a President be able to order the assassination of someone, in particular a U.S. citizen, without solid evidence or a trial?

The National Security Powers have increasingly removed the protections of law and the requisite probable cause and evidence from prosecuting and executing. It's become increasingly impersonal and remote.

SAM said:
Oooh this is toooo serious

Time for laughs:

bin%20laden%20dead%202.jpg

Lucysnow asked early on in the thread about where they got all the flags, and was there a flag merchant (Made in China, the most patriotic type of flag to wave, dontcha know?!?).
What struck me about the White House gathering, was that just a few weeks ago, people were protesting the attack on Libya, and of course, many were arrested.
But an even huger crowd gathers, engaging in probably drunken revelry, and everything is just peachy.

Note: any protest against government, no matter how peaceful, is bound to result in arrests.
 
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