Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[Trippy]

Secunderabad is the name of the area so it won't be on the map

The helicopter crashed on Kakool road which is very close to Bilal town, where Easter Osama had his hideout

http://maps.google.co.in/maps?q=osa...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

Durrr. I spotted that to :m

Still, the crash site was at least 1km away, depending on which way they were going.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=bin+l...6947,73.238361&spn=0.011238,0.024805&t=h&z=16

 

[S.A.M.]

- are you confirming my suspicion that the Pak helicopter crash was a seperate, possibly/probably unrelated incident?

There was a helicopter crash on the day of the raid on Kakul road, near Bilal town

It was reported as an "army" copter by Dawn; there were rumours that Ashraf Kiyani [of anti-US drone attacks fame; Pakistan Army Chief] was killed. Now it is being said that the helicopter was American

The other copter came down the day after the raid in Punjab [ near the air base used by the Americans on the previous day

edit: apparently Ghazi airbase is also in Khyber Pakhtunwa so both helicopters crashed in Khyber Pakhtunwa on successive days and the military jet crashed in the Punjab

 

[nirakar]

Wouldn't it be in our interest to keep Osama out there as a boogeyman?

If you want the US government involved everywhere around the world then a credible threat is needed. But the US also needs to have a credible response to the credible threat if they want the American people to continue supporting the interventionalist policies. Bin Laden's death probably helps interventionalists as it allows them to claim they are accomplishing something.

Al Qaeda can be a credible threat without Bin Laden. If Al Qaeda can't get it together to do a terrorist attack the US government can always do a false flag attack on it's own people like what the Italia government did to Italians when the Italian government staged the Red Brigade bombings.

Obama and the Democrats will probably be very helped by the Bin Laden killing. Doesn't the needs of internal politics usually trump foreign policy considerations?

I think this is win, win, win, win. Most importlantly it s getting the stupid royal wedding off the news.

Republicans lose but what is Fox News supposed to with this? How can Fox spin this as a negative for Obama?

 

[joepistole]

If you want the US government involved everywhere around the world then a credible threat is needed. But the US also needs to have a credible response to the credible threat if they want the American people to continue supporting the interventionalist policies. Bin Laden's death probably helps interventionalists as it allows them to claim they are accomplishing something.

Al Qaeda can be a credible threat without Bin Laden. If Al Qaeda can't get it together to do a terrorist attack the US government can always do a false flag attack on it's own people like what the Italia government did to Italians when the Italian government staged the Red Brigade bombings.

Obama and the Democrats will probably be very helped by the Bin Laden killing. Doesn't the needs of internal politics usually trump foreign policy considerations?

I think this is win, win, win, win. Most importlantly it s getting the stupid royal wedding off the news.

Republicans lose but what is Fox News supposed to with this? How can Fox spin this as a negative for Obama?

Trust me, Fox routinely rewrites history and are doing so even now.

 

[ULTRA]

That OBL is dead is no surprise to me. The whole episode looks stage-managed though. The unhelpful and corrupt Pakistanis get deniability, the US gets a dead terrorist and AQ gets 10 years of OBL and a dead martyr at the end of it.
The more I think about the cost/return analysis and law of diminishing returns both financially and in friendly/unfriendly (whatever that means) blood spilt, the more I don't like the look of this.
Obama was watching it live? the resources and planning for that is immense. This was no split decision.
I don't much like the math, and this looks like an ideal watershed for the hellishly complicated task of disengagement.
Most people think you just pack up your troops and go home. Nothing could be further from the truth. Disengagement is a fraught and messy business engaged in by people who want to settle old scores first, pay back trechary and off anyone useful they can in the process. They don't call the war-machine a machine for nothing. It feeds off its own energy and has to be shut down in sequence and by both sides in tandem to have any chance of working satisfactorally...

 

[The Esotericist]

No. It's 24 pages in 9 1/2 years. People just had to wait until now to catch up with their posting.

I thought it was rude of them to steal all the headlines right after the Royal Wedding.

This was the second highest rated comment to this video.

I think Osama's death was a wedding present to William and Kate.

Good Riddance (Time Of Your Life) (Video)

 

[The Esotericist]

Actually did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVdU2eVYSg&feature=player_embedded

I had to laugh at this video, it was hilarious.

The top comment on the video of a conservative backwoods gun toting American riding his ATV acting all hyper-nationalistic was. . .

You know who shoots guns in the air when they're happy? Arabs.

I thought, "gee, we're not so different. Guess there's a chance for world peace after all."

 

[The Esotericist]

This whole discussion is really getting dull. The people that say it's probable that he's been dead, given that we haven't heard from him, are told there is no hard evidence that this is so. It doesn't matter that logic, and evidence have been presented, along with many accounts which say it is so. Denial still runs rampant among those that must have a signed certificate of death from the government of the United States. Shall we call them the Deathers? A sort of, "you're not dead till uncle sam says you're dead."

And yet today, ten years later, they don't feel they need to live up to the same standard, just b/c the MSM and the government say he's dead, well then, it is so.

REALLY??? I mean, c'mon, REALLY?? Are you serious? Is it that simple of an argument. We have to go for forty pages and that is all you have. You are right just b/c the government and the press tell you that you are, and they never lie? Honestly? :shrug:

I think I'll stand in among the crowd who can think for themselves thank you.

 

[Giambattista]

Bin Laden's dead?!?!? OMG OMG OMG!!!!

So terrorism is over?

The war ends? Everyone comes home?

Oh, wait... what's that you say? Vengeance from his death makes us even less safe? That he was allegedly living in Pakistan means we should invade that country now?

Oh deary me oh my!

Honestly, they were so concerned about Muslim sensibilities that they rushed to throw him in the ocean as soon as possible, but trumpet the death loudly at the same time to enrage people or supposedly enrage them so that there is even more threat from terrorism, whether real or staged???

Likely story. The convenience of this to further fan the flames of insurgents, terror alerts, and the continuation of war and pissing on the Constitution are rather astounding.

This whole discussion is really getting dull. The people that say it's probable that he's been dead, given that we haven't heard from him, are told there is no hard evidence that this is so. It doesn't matter that logic, and evidence have been presented, along with many accounts which say it is so. Denial still runs rampant among those that must have a signed certificate of death from the government of the United States. Shall we call them the Deathers? A sort of, "you're not dead till uncle sam says you're dead."

And yet today, ten years later, they don't feel they need to live up to the same standard, just b/c the MSM and the government say he's dead, well then, it is so.

REALLY??? I mean, c'mon, REALLY?? Are you serious? Is it that simple of an argument. We have to go for forty pages and that is all you have. You are right just b/c the government and the press tell you that you are, and they never lie? Honestly? :shrug:

I pointed that out earlier.
Government officialdom, by its very nature, requires little or no evidence to prove its point or make a case. Heck, an American can be arrested and held pretty much indefinitely for whatever "security" reason.

Anyone, however, that questions official stories is mocked, becoming the target of very typical ad hominem non-arguments. The bar is constantly raised for those who question.

I think I'll stand in among the crowd who can think for themselves thank you.

You can stand over here with us "unpatriotic" tinfoil hat models. We're wearing the latest....

 

[S.A.M.]

This just keeps getting better and better.

Now we not only have almost a dozen children, but also a dozen adults, i.e. three families living in a haveli where locals only ever saw the two men

"In addition to the bin Laden family, two other families resided in the compound: one family on the first floor of the bin Laden building, and one family in a second

building. One team began the operation on the first floor of the bin Laden house and worked their way to the third floor. A second team cleared the separate building," Carney said.

"On the first floor of bin Laden's building, two al Qaeda couriers were killed, along with a woman who was killed in crossfire. Bin Laden and his family were found on the second and third floor of the building. There was concern that bin Laden would oppose the capture operation rather, and, indeed, he did resist," he said.

"In the room with bin Laden, a woman rather, bin Laden's wife, rushed the US assaulter and was shot in the leg but not killed. Bin Laden was then shot and killed. He was not armed.

Following the firefight, the noncombatants were moved to a safe location as the damaged helicopter was detonated.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/osama-unarmed-during-operation-admits-white-house/785618/0

So the official reports claim the helicopter of the Americans was detonated.

That bin Laden was with his wife in his bedroom by themselves.

That US troops broke into the house through the wall

That they shot the wife in the ankle and Easter Osama who was unarmed but "resisting"

"The resistance was throughout. When the assaulter entered the room where Osama bin Laden was, he was rushed by one individual in the room, and the resistance was consistent from the moment they landed until the end of the operation," he said.

Responding to questions, Carney said the Special Forces were prepared to capture him if that was possible.

"We expected a great deal of resistance and were met with a great deal of resistance," he said.

Though Laden himself was not armed there were many other people who were armed in the in the compound.

"There was a firefight," he said, adding that it was a highly volatile firefight.

"He resisted. The US personnel on the ground handled themselves with the utmost professionalism and he was killed in an operation because of the resistance that they met," he said.

A great number of people were unharmed and safely made secure after the operation was complete and the helicopter had to be detonated. But there was a firefight, he said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/osama-unarmed-during-operation-admits-white-house/785618/0

Hmm...

In all, said the U.S. official who sought anonymity, five of the approximately two dozen people in the compound were killed -- the two couriers, the woman, bin Laden and his son.

Officials have not publicly identified everyone who was in the compound.

Materials taken from the compound included 10 hard drives, five computers and more than 100 storage devices, such as disks, DVDs and thumb drives, a senior U.S. official told CNN Tuesday.

That material is being reviewed, said John Brennan, President Barack Obama's top counterterrorism adviser.

In his first public comments on the raid, Attorney General Eric Holder Tuesday declared the operation "lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way."

http://www.southbendtribune.com/ktl...-video-of-bin-laden-raid,0,1805227,full.story

And thats all she said.

Question: if he was "unarmed but resisting" why didn't they shoot him in the legs? Why in the head?

 

[Lilalena]

Question: if he was "unarmed but resisting" why didn't they shoot him in the legs? Why in the head?

Actually that's my question too.

Was he also already buried by the time the announcement was made? Same day he was killed?

And they just say the burial was all in accordance with Islamic tradition? And no video or pictures? So strange.

 

[parmalee]

Anyone, however, that questions official stories is mocked, becoming the target of very typical ad hominem non-arguments. The bar is constantly raised for those who question.

I'm not so sure that such derision is directed towards anyone who simply questions the "official stories," I think it's directed more towards those who let their skepticism and incredulity get the better of them and go way out there on a limb with their questioning. Quadrophonics' remark pretty much sums up my impression:

It's possible - heck, outright likely - that we're not hearing the entire story, and that elements are being sexed up or otherwise painted in a certain light. We've seen this happen repeatedly before, with Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman. And we've already seen it here, with the conflicting reports about human shields and so on. But I see little reason to seriously doubt the basic facts presented (OBL in Abbottabad compound, tracked there by couriers, killed by a SEAL team, ID confirmed by facial recognition, eyewitness and DNA, body dumped into sea).

What is more perplexing to me is how actions of primarily symbolic import become reified--I mean, are there people who actually believe that manifestations of power are not diffuse in the slightest? Applying chess strategies (and tactics) when playing go doesn't yield favorable outcomes.

I also wonder how people react when viewing photos or videos of the "compound"--you know, when the "monster" inhabits a fancy house in what appears something like a bougie, upscale neighborhood, rather than the "cave" dwelling we've been sold on, do people consequently revise their mythologies accordingly?

 

[nirakar]

Question: if he was "unarmed but resisting" why didn't they shoot him in the legs? Why in the head?

They were afraid that he might hypnotize them with his eyes.

 

[S.A.M.]

One more question.

On the one hand you have a 54 year old man last seen in an image broadcast in 2002 [no idea when the image was shot] like this:

Presumably he got older in the last 9 years

On the other hand you have an elite SEAL team 6 which doesn't officially exist but presumably contains real trained fighting force

How did Osama resist them without any arms? Considering that they claim to have shot the wife in the ankle [no picture no party] it seems that they were coherent enough not to jump in and start shooting indiscriminately [plus the bedroom shown in the pictures shows no sign of a firefight] - so what exactly did the old man do that this elite highly trained special operations team with classified members could not capture him alive?

I'm trying to imagine an old man and his wife surprised in the middle of the night by a bunch of armed troops breaking into the house. The woman "rushed at" the troops and the old man "resisted" - Yeah I can see how anyone would react to armed men breaking into a home in the middle of the night. But what was the reason for shooting the resisting man in the head? Was he even more highly trained than the SEAL members?

 

[CptBork]

I mean, who cares what westerners think of Pakistan or whether they come to Abbottabad? Just Pakistanis will make up a substantial quantity of tourists to the OBL site.

That's great, then they'll get to see, up close and first-hand, the comfortable living conditions of their heroic freedom fighter as he sent his minions off to their mostly futile and painful deaths. They can see all the places the SEALs raided and how expertly the operation was pulled off, say a few prayers in the bathroom where bin Laden took his last dump, maybe jump around on his bed like kids for a bit ($25 per minute to jump, a real money-maker).

 

[Giambattista]

I'm not so sure that such derision is directed towards anyone who simply questions the "official stories," I think it's directed more towards those who let their skepticism and incredulity get the better of them and go way out there on a limb with their questioning.

Sure it can go that way. It also goes the other way. As for skepticism, why is it that all the "professional skeptics" (Michael Shermers and Randi's of the world) are never skeptical of government pronouncements or scientific consensus? One could easily say they let their biased beliefs color all the evidence they consider fact or fiction.

Anyone on either side can go too far.

 

[Lilalena]

For the next few days I'm going to assume that they are afraid graphic imagery of his death could trigger violent tributes...

If there are still no pictures 2 weeks from now then I would really start to wonder.

Given that all we've had so far is the government's word on it I'd say 'where's the hard evidence' is a valid question so

I find it incredibly baffling that anyone should be instantly attacked just for asking it.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's great, then they'll get to see, up close and first-hand, the comfortable living conditions of their heroic freedom fighter as he sent his minions off to their mostly futile and painful deaths. They can see all the places the SEALs raided and how expertly the operation was pulled off, say a few prayers in the bathroom where bin Laden took his last dump, maybe jump around on his bed like kids for a bit ($25 per minute to jump, a real money-maker).

And thats another question - if that house with two dozen people living in such cramped conditions with such cheap ugly furniture and poor furnishings is how Americans imagine billionaire Arabs live, I should clearly have visited a few homes of the rich and famous in the US. Based on my own experience even hospital drivers in Saudi Arabia making 5 figure salaries a year live in less cramped more affluent conditions.

Meanwhile, there are reports that the HUGE LUXURIOUS worthy-of-its-own-center-spread-in-Architectural Digest million US dollar home was "once" an ISI safe house

Bin Laden compound in Pakistan was once an ISI safe house

House was not owned by the government and had been rented by Afghan nationals, intelligence official says

Dubai: The compound in Abbottabad where Osama Bin Laden was killed was once used as a safe house by Pakistan's premier intelligence agency ISI, Gulf News has learnt.

"This area had been used as ISI's safe house, but it was not under their use any more because they keep on changing their locations," a senior intelligence official confided to Gulf News. However, he did not reveal when and for how long it was used by the ISI operatives. Another official cautiously said "it may not be the same house but the same compound or area used by the ISI".

The official also confirmed that the house was rented out by Afghan nationals and is not owned by the government. The house is located just 800 metres away from the Pakistan Military Academy and some former senior military officials live nearby.

http://gulfnews.com/news/world/othe...-pakistan-was-once-an-isi-safe-house-1.802539

So who owns the place now? More anonymous people who can't be found, presumably.

 

[CptBork]

How did Osama resist them without any arms?

They told him to come out with his hands up, he yelled back that he needed to finish wiping, so they said "no time for that" and picked him off through the window. Hey, at least it's better than taking him back in their helicopter, holding him out the window and listening to him squeal before they let him drop.

 

[CptBork]

So who owns the place now?

Since Pakistan wasn't enforcing its sovereignty over the region, perhaps the US should just annex it for themselves.