Well, yes, that's a given, hence it being a conspiracy theory.
Osama Bin Laden is Dead
- Thread starter SciWriter
- Start date
Well, yes, that's a given, hence it being a conspiracy theory.
And since nobody is doing that - since every adult American knows full well of various times their government has lied to them - your picture exists in your own head, as an ugly strawman of an entire nationality, employed to buttress nasty bigoted views of such.
You should try to develop some sense of shame.
Oh man #chan is on fire with this stuff!
Probably the two couriers that were used to find the compound in the first place.
I can't wait for Osama to debunk his own death, it would be a great victory for Al Quida.
Do they? I see a lot of faith on display these last two days:
These people don't need any proof, they have no doubts. All the grand poobah has to do is announce Mission Accomplished.
The doubters? They are the "fringe", the conspiracy theorists.
Yes, we have a long tradition of falling for historical hoaxes:
Osama's final moments captured on Twitter
Not the article I originally read - however, it seems to contain much of the same information regarding the courier and his brother (probably the people S.A.M mentioned).
Get the courier, get Osama - how CIA made the break
Not the article I originally read - however, it seems to contain much of the same information regarding the courier and his brother (probably the people S.A.M mentioned).
Get the courier, get Osama - how CIA made the break
You don't know that, in the first place. It isn't something that one can determine from a photograph. That you'd presume to judge the mental faculties and gullibility of an entire nation from a photograph of a few people says a lot about you, and none of it pleasant. You're apparently just projecting an ugly strawman onto any image at hand, and somehow expecting that to impress others.
In the second place, the absense of evidence that would rise to your (obviously stilted) standard of "proof" doesn't mean that anyone's trust in government is uncritical. One can easily discern how badly things would go for Obama if this is shown to be bullshit - which it would be, in short order, if bullshit it is - and safely assume that Obama knows all of that. Putting that all together, along with Obama's generally good reputation for honesty, and you get a high degree of credibility, and not just amongst Americans. Plenty of people all over the world are taking this news at face value, after all.
He has to do so credibly. And he has. But, indeed, there is necessarily an element of trust and credibility involved in the publicization of information coming from an active war, especially when it comes to black ops.
It's possible - heck, outright likely - that we're not hearing the entire story, and that elements are being sexed up or otherwise painted in a certain light. We've seen this happen repeatedly before, with Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman. And we've already seen it here, with the conflicting reports about human shields and so on. But I see little reason to seriously doubt the basic facts presented (OBL in Abbottabad compound, tracked there by couriers, killed by a SEAL team, ID confirmed by facial recognition, eyewitness and DNA, body dumped into sea).
That's correct. There are, as of yet, no good reasons to doubt the major elements of the story as presented. Those who go to great lengths to cook up such doubts on spurious bases, are indeed conspiracy theorists whom nobody has much of any reason to care about the opinions of.
And let me emphasize - for about the 20th time in this thread - that there is no visible correlation between that fringe and any particular nationality.
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Asked and answered, repeatedly. Most recently, in the exact post that you quoted there. You are clearly not engaging in good faith, here.
What is your credibility based on? Why should anyone listen to your input, on anything?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Sam
What bullshit! This is proof of how little you know of Americans anywhere in the country. You know I spent the last few months in of all places Columbus, Georgia, its a garrison town (fort benning). You would be shocked at how many service men and locals from Georgia who are southern, conservative and proud are critical and skeptical of their government. Not in every instance as you would have it, but people who have long been unsatisfied with what they deem washington 'incompetence' and State lies (yes like the weapons of mass destruction). Some of them hate Obama but surprisingly there were many who felt he wasn't being treated fairly but that's neither here nor there. My point is that what you would like is for people to HATE their government and hate the U.S (maybe even the west). These people are not 'fringe' nor are they conspiracy theorists, which tells me you don't really understand what conspiracy theory actually refers to or implies. People who doubt their government whether they be right or left is practically an american tradition. There are still many who are reeling from all the lies told by the Bush administration and the lies that landed us into a long war. But guess what Sam, the alternative would have been something like 'we have to do something about Bin Laden and the rise of extremism and terrorist training grounds but we don't need two full scale war to do it!'. In short they would have still crossed borders to kill Bin Laden and destroy terrorist outposts a la Mossad, exactly the way they achieved success in this operation. If they had gone that route there probably would have been no war in Iraq but Afghanistan and Pakistan would still have to be dealt with.
What bullshit! This is proof of how little you know of Americans anywhere in the country. You know I spent the last few months in of all places Columbus, Georgia, its a garrison town (fort benning). You would be shocked at how many service men and locals from Georgia who are southern, conservative and proud are critical and skeptical of their government. Not in every instance as you would have it, but people who have long been unsatisfied with what they deem washington 'incompetence' and State lies (yes like the weapons of mass destruction). Some of them hate Obama but surprisingly there were many who felt he wasn't being treated fairly but that's neither here nor there. My point is that what you would like is for people to HATE their government and hate the U.S (maybe even the west). These people are not 'fringe' nor are they conspiracy theorists, which tells me you don't really understand what conspiracy theory actually refers to or implies. People who doubt their government whether they be right or left is practically an american tradition. There are still many who are reeling from all the lies told by the Bush administration and the lies that landed us into a long war. But guess what Sam, the alternative would have been something like 'we have to do something about Bin Laden and the rise of extremism and terrorist training grounds but we don't need two full scale war to do it!'. In short they would have still crossed borders to kill Bin Laden and destroy terrorist outposts a la Mossad, exactly the way they achieved success in this operation. If they had gone that route there probably would have been no war in Iraq but Afghanistan and Pakistan would still have to be dealt with.
He liveblogged a raid [but saw nothing] we have the pictures of the crashed helicopter on the site. However, we have no explanation why this Pakistani helicopter had crashed on the site. Haven't we been told that the Pakistanis knew nothing and were not involved? Meanwhile the mysterious US chopper which had technical difficulties - thus preventing the transport of the anonymous wife and equally anonymous 8?9? children of Easter Osama - is nowhere to be seen.
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Wouldn't it be in our interest to keep Osama out there as a boogeyman?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Sam
What are you ignoring me?:shrug:
Scared?
What are you ignoring me?:shrug:
Scared?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Don't you get it yet? If Osama is dead then we keep him alive as a boogeyman, if he's alive we are lying to advance ourselves, if we are in Afghanistan we are evil but if we leave Afghanistan then we would have destroyed their country. The only thing that would make Sam happy is if the government dissolved and all americans blew themselves up so that they don't stain the earth with their presence. Oh yeah and we would have to take the Israeli's or Jews or Hebrews or Zionists..nah just all jews with us.
You know like that happy go lucky Ghandi had advised:
“I would challenge Hitler to shoot me or cast me into the dungeon,” Gandhi wrote in his article. “I would not wait for fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but would have confidence that in the end the rest are bound to follow my example … Suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy.”
Happy happy joy joy!
Oh man #chan is on fire with this stuff!
Hahahaha! Now I have to do a whole bunch of research and digging to find out if/when Obama actually did that.
Edit: that was some excellent editing. You should check out this one, editing not quite as good but still pretty impressive- Star Wars vs. Titanic.
Reuters wrote the headline, not me - you may have noticed that in both cases I simply copied and pasted the headlines of the articles as the link titles.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that I linked to it because it proved something, I didn't, I linked to it, because, for a number of reasons, I found it mildly amusing.
I'm not asserting any credibility here. You are free to take all the statements for what they are worth
I'm simply stating
1. There is no body
2. There is no independent observer who can claim to have seen the body
3. There is no independent observer who has seen bin Laden in Abbottabad
4. There is no proof of life or death
These facts stand by themselves
What do we have?
1. A crashed helicopter which locals claim is Pakistani and Americans claim is American
2. Pictures of a house raided with what look like blood stains
What we are told:
1. there is a wife - no one has seen her or claimed to have seen her except anonymous sources. She has no name, age, photo or identity
2. 8 or 9 children who never played or went to school in their locality - who were never seen by anyone
3. Two men who were identified from different places in Pakistan by locals - also anonymous and now missing
4. Two neighbours taken from their farm by US troops - also missing
In fact EVERY single person connected with the case is either missing or anonymous or in custody or dead.
You can follow the tweets from local journalists here and here
al Jazeera is live blogging it here
You can perhaps see where it's kinda screwy to start from a position that an unsubstantiated rumor is true, and then demand a factual explanation for its implications. The implied standard of evidence there is stilted on its face - it's only useful as a tactic for browbeating people who don't notice the ridiculously selective application of skepticism.