Yes
Im not disagreeing with him ceding controls, just that he didnt pray from what I heard.
Muslim pilot prayed instead of taking emergency action to land plane... 16 dead
- Thread starter scorpius
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Yes
Im not disagreeing with him ceding controls, just that he didnt pray from what I heard.
Read my posts above. I did say that each type of aircraft has a glide slope. And if they glided 16 miles, the 1:3 ratio that I guessimated for the ATR was pretty close.
And like I said sam, he lost his engines and the plane eventually hit the water; granted he did glide 16 miles but that's not much if you're over the ocean.
Then if you heard the black box recording, do enlighten the rest of us as to what was said.
Right, if this guy was givien 10 years for manslaughter, every plane crash in which the pilot survived, but not all the passengers, should equally get manslaughter charges.
If I had a passenger in my car and got into an accident, would I be in criminal court facing manslaughter for it? If I was drinking, sure. But, if I failed to control the car, would I? You better believe my ass would be sued by the surviving family, but i'm not sure there is a criminal case there. Anyone?
:bugeye:
Sam, the 1:3 ratio I'm talking about is the plane drops 1 vertical foot for every 3 horizontal feet it glides. So allow me to do the math for you...again.
the plane was 23,000 vertical feet over the earth. 23000 feet is 4.35 miles.
So the plane glided 16 miles horizontally but dropped 4.35 miles vertically.
And if you divide 16 by 4.35 you get..3.67. So the ATR has a drop/glide ratio of about 1:3.67.
Whats funny is that there was a crash in the USA due to an actual pilot error where he didnt check an or use the instruments properly. More than 70 people or so died. No charges iirc. What makes this case interesting is that first he was a hero, then when someone heard "Allah!", suddenly he was a criminal
Bells
Staff member
The black box was only the last 5 minutes. The plane glided for 16 minutes. The reason they were jailed is because of what happened in the first few minutes of the whole drama, not the last 5 minutes.
It was those uttered at the start of the emergency when he gave the control of the plane to his copilot in his panic that was the issue. But you're still not getting it. The reason he was found guilty is because of the simple fact that instead of following procedure and taking control of the plane when it all started, he ceded control to his copilot so that he could pray.
Engine's start to go funny and then stop due to lack of fuel.. he panics and gives control of the plane in those first crucial minutes to his copilot so he could pray. After he had finished and had managed to get some control of himself, he apparently came back and did his job. I am sure there have been experts from around the aviation industry who would have measured, checked, simulated, etc, to see if he would have been able to glide that plane to the closest airport, as he had been ordered to do. They obviously found that it would have been very possible because they state he specifically chose to ditch the plane. Planes have glided and landed safely before and obviously, the conditions were ripe for him to be able to do it. Instead of checking his options and following procedure, he gave up control of the plane to the co-pilot so that he could have a bit of a pray.
Now as a pilot, the expectation is that he pilot the plane. That is his responsibility. When the engine's stopped, he stopped piloting the plane. That is why he was found guilty.
To compare your car accident scenario to what the pilot did. Imagine you are in a car, with 4 passengers, one in the front next to you and 3 in the back, strapped in. The car loses control and you panic and then tell the guy sitting next to you to hold the wheel and stir, whereby you then have a bit of a prayer session as he tries to gain control of your vehicle.jayleew said:
Again, it's not that he prayed. The issue here is that he ceded control of the plane to his copilot in his panic and then started praying. Ceding control means telling the copilot to take over.. in a situation like that, you expect the captain/pilot of the aircraft to actually do his job, you know, fly the plane. Not go into panic to the point where he cannot even touch the controls of the plane and then he starts praying.
Learn how to read/interpret the English system girls.Get on the metric system guys.
If you can speak more than one language, the statement I made should make perfect sense to you.
I know how to read the metric system. I just chose not to do it in the metric system. As lazy as you are sam, you should be able to translate those numbers into meters and kilometers my dear.
There's unfortunately a lot of cultural bias cluttering this case. It's a travesty that the Italian courts have muddled the issue further.
The errors that lead to the ditching of TS-LBB had nothing to do with religious beliefs, customs, or expressions. Mechanics in Tunis mounted an Atr42 fuel gauge on that ATR-72, which is calibrated for smaller tanks, and as a result the system was registering fuel that wasn't there. Both cockpit and ground crews didn't identify or underestimated the problem, because they didn't follow established procedures for verifying fuel loading independently. At the refueling port there is a gauge for logging fuel loading. The fuel aboard on prior legs (and when the guages were installed the night before) were required for consideration.
Because of these combined errors; because multiple mandatory fueling procedures were not followed, the aircraft took off with insufficient fuel to make the opposite shore. When the engines flamed out with empty tanks, the gauges were still (incorrectly) reading half full. At that point, the aircraft was not within gliding distance of shore. The wind was high, the water rough, and ditching without breakup probably impossible. Anyway, the crew's expressions of dismay and faith in God did not cause the accident. Faulty fueling (yes, there was some crew complicity there) did. Listening to the crew handling the emergency that ensued, it's important to remember that the critical error happened on the ground before departure. They handled the flameout competently. That it ultimately didn't turn out like the "Miracle on the Hudson" had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with the rough condition of the water they ditched in.
CVR Audio
The errors that lead to the ditching of TS-LBB had nothing to do with religious beliefs, customs, or expressions. Mechanics in Tunis mounted an Atr42 fuel gauge on that ATR-72, which is calibrated for smaller tanks, and as a result the system was registering fuel that wasn't there. Both cockpit and ground crews didn't identify or underestimated the problem, because they didn't follow established procedures for verifying fuel loading independently. At the refueling port there is a gauge for logging fuel loading. The fuel aboard on prior legs (and when the guages were installed the night before) were required for consideration.
Because of these combined errors; because multiple mandatory fueling procedures were not followed, the aircraft took off with insufficient fuel to make the opposite shore. When the engines flamed out with empty tanks, the gauges were still (incorrectly) reading half full. At that point, the aircraft was not within gliding distance of shore. The wind was high, the water rough, and ditching without breakup probably impossible. Anyway, the crew's expressions of dismay and faith in God did not cause the accident. Faulty fueling (yes, there was some crew complicity there) did. Listening to the crew handling the emergency that ensued, it's important to remember that the critical error happened on the ground before departure. They handled the flameout competently. That it ultimately didn't turn out like the "Miracle on the Hudson" had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with the rough condition of the water they ditched in.
CVR Audio
Read Bell's post just above, you might have some different thoughts on the issue.
Baron Max
So the court finding that the plane was within gliding distance of the nearest airport at shutdown was a factual error?hype said:
I'm not reading that, in the links and such posted so far. I'm reading that his prayer break was in response to the initial shutdown of the engines, more than fifteen minutes before the ditch.arsalan said:
Bells: "The issue here is that he ceded control of the plane to his copilot in his panic and then started praying. Ceding control means telling the copilot to take over.. in a situation like that, you expect the captain/pilot of the aircraft to actually do his job, you know, fly the plane. Not go into panic to the point where he cannot even touch the controls of the plane and then he starts praying."
You wrong this time, Bells. The issue here is that plane and all aboard found themselves headed for very choppy water (not smooth, and not long rows of swells) after the flameout. A rude arrival awaited them, no matter who was flying. Had a heroic figure (such as my country has made of Cpt. Sullenberger) been at the helm stoicallychanting restart and ditching procedures without interruption throughout that long glide, the steep walls of water were nevertheless going to bash that airplane like solid walls of concrete. On the way down, it was entirely appropriate for the Captain to share the workload, including flying and restart procedures with the First Officer. Would I or my students have spoken (and prayed) a little more crisply "for the record"? I like to think so. It was the bad bounce into the sheer face of a kiloton wave that was the ultimate brutality, and it had nothing to do with what had been said to God on the way down.
You wrong this time, Bells. The issue here is that plane and all aboard found themselves headed for very choppy water (not smooth, and not long rows of swells) after the flameout. A rude arrival awaited them, no matter who was flying. Had a heroic figure (such as my country has made of Cpt. Sullenberger) been at the helm stoicallychanting restart and ditching procedures without interruption throughout that long glide, the steep walls of water were nevertheless going to bash that airplane like solid walls of concrete. On the way down, it was entirely appropriate for the Captain to share the workload, including flying and restart procedures with the First Officer. Would I or my students have spoken (and prayed) a little more crisply "for the record"? I like to think so. It was the bad bounce into the sheer face of a kiloton wave that was the ultimate brutality, and it had nothing to do with what had been said to God on the way down.
So the court findings as reported:hypewaders said:
1)that the plane was within glide distance of the nearest airport runway at shutdown
2) and that in those initial minutes - when there was still time to make the runway - the pilot first panicked, and then ceded the controls to the copilot and spent some time praying, before retaking the controls when the only choice was water ditching
are in error?
iceaura: "So the court finding that the plane was within gliding distance of the nearest airport at shutdown was a factual error?"
I am inclined to say that yes, the court was in error, because I read the accident report, as is my habit for all of them. This one is years old, but I remember reviewing it. I'll try and pull it up, and when I do I'll link the accident report here.
"I'm reading that his prayer break was in response to the initial shutdown of the engines, more than fifteen minutes before the ditch."
Have you considered that praying was not all that the Captain was doing? In my own inflight emergencies (the closest one to this was putting a plane into a forest clearing) I know that there were a lot of interesting words coming out of my mouth in what could be considered and inappropriate stream of consciousness- but meanwhile, I was doing what I was trained to do, at the very same consequential time. People are capable of all sorts of expressions even while performing trained duties. For those brought up in Muslim culture, common sayings come to mind and lips in trying times, but that doesn't mean that the individual is frozen in in a state of mental or physical inaction or distraction.
"that in those initial minutes - when there was still time to make the runway - the pilot first panicked"
What: "OH SHIT" What? Did he run to the lavatory? What?
"and then ceded the controls to the copilot"
This is called Crew Resource Management in airline training. It's reasonable for a Captain to leave the simplest duties to the FO, and the simplest (but essential) task at that point was to fly the airplane.
"and spent some time praying, before retaking the controls"
I have seen no proof that praying was all that the Captain was doing. Did he go aft and spread out his prayer rug? I doubt it.
Anyway, I'll review the accident report, because it's been some years, and even though it's all really moot because the critical errors were made on the ground before the departure of that flight.
I am inclined to say that yes, the court was in error, because I read the accident report, as is my habit for all of them. This one is years old, but I remember reviewing it. I'll try and pull it up, and when I do I'll link the accident report here.
"I'm reading that his prayer break was in response to the initial shutdown of the engines, more than fifteen minutes before the ditch."
Have you considered that praying was not all that the Captain was doing? In my own inflight emergencies (the closest one to this was putting a plane into a forest clearing) I know that there were a lot of interesting words coming out of my mouth in what could be considered and inappropriate stream of consciousness- but meanwhile, I was doing what I was trained to do, at the very same consequential time. People are capable of all sorts of expressions even while performing trained duties. For those brought up in Muslim culture, common sayings come to mind and lips in trying times, but that doesn't mean that the individual is frozen in in a state of mental or physical inaction or distraction.
"that in those initial minutes - when there was still time to make the runway - the pilot first panicked"
What: "OH SHIT" What? Did he run to the lavatory? What?
"and then ceded the controls to the copilot"
This is called Crew Resource Management in airline training. It's reasonable for a Captain to leave the simplest duties to the FO, and the simplest (but essential) task at that point was to fly the airplane.
"and spent some time praying, before retaking the controls"
I have seen no proof that praying was all that the Captain was doing. Did he go aft and spread out his prayer rug? I doubt it.
Anyway, I'll review the accident report, because it's been some years, and even though it's all really moot because the critical errors were made on the ground before the departure of that flight.
Do you know how far they were from shore at impact? I don't recall seeing it in the article, but that doesn't mean I remember it.
Just some links as I find them:
Misfuel Causation(pdf)
ANSV Accident Report (24mb pdf)
Still reviewing, but I see nothing suggesting that the crew's diversion to Palermo was unreasonably delayed. This whole hubbub is an Islamophobic wild-goose chase. (mutters things aloud to God while still reviewing the data)
Misfuel Causation(pdf)
ANSV Accident Report (24mb pdf)
Still reviewing, but I see nothing suggesting that the crew's diversion to Palermo was unreasonably delayed. This whole hubbub is an Islamophobic wild-goose chase. (mutters things aloud to God while still reviewing the data)
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He was the captain of the flight ...he turned the controls over to the co-pilot ...no matter what else he did, no pilot would do that in the midst of a dire emergency.
Curious, tho', Hype, why are you trying to defend this guy? Especially since the courts have already looked at all the evidence and testimony?
Baron Max
"He was the captain of the flight ...he turned the controls over to the co-pilot ...no matter what else he did, no pilot would do that in the midst of a dire emergency."
That's a completely ignorant thing to say about airline procedures. Please Google "Crew Resource Management".
"Curious, tho', Hype, why are you trying to defend this guy?"
He's a fellow aviator, and his case is being exploited by islamophobes to advance their worldview by confusing the ignorant.
"Especially since the courts have already looked at all the evidence and testimony?"
How much do you know about Italy's judicial system?
That's a completely ignorant thing to say about airline procedures. Please Google "Crew Resource Management".
"Curious, tho', Hype, why are you trying to defend this guy?"
He's a fellow aviator, and his case is being exploited by islamophobes to advance their worldview by confusing the ignorant.
"Especially since the courts have already looked at all the evidence and testimony?"
How much do you know about Italy's judicial system?