Muslim pilot prayed instead of taking emergency action to land plane... 16 dead

You wrong this time, Bells. The issue here is that plane and all aboard found themselves headed for very choppy water (not smooth, and not long rows of swells) after the flameout. A rude arrival awaited them, no matter who was flying. Had a heroic figure (such as my country has made of Cpt. Sullenberger) been at the helm stoicallychanting restart and ditching procedures without interruption throughout that long glide, the steep walls of water were nevertheless going to bash that airplane like solid walls of concrete.
Yes to all of that. I doubt anyone would disagree.

On the way down, it was entirely appropriate for the Captain to share the workload, including flying and restart procedures with the First Officer.
This is where this whole thing gets a bit nasty.

From all reports thus far, it would appear that when the plane first got into trouble, the captain panicked and ceded all control of the plane to this co-pilot and then he was heard praying. Now you know how black boxes work. Isn't it possible that they heard him give all control of the plane to his co-pilot? Isn't it possible that they heard him panic in those first few minutes? Isn't it possible that they could tell when he stopped touching the control stick and they can tell where the co-pilot took over?

Would I or my students have spoken (and prayed) a little more crisply "for the record"? I like to think so.
Do you think you would start to panic and tell your co-pilot to take control?

It was the bad bounce into the sheer face of a kiloton wave that was the ultimate brutality, and it had nothing to do with what had been said to God on the way down.
Hey, I can understand why he was praying on the way down. As an atheist what I probably would have said would not be able to be repeated in any way to the public, in that I wouldn't have been praying but cursing and swearing the whole time. It's not the praying that gets me so much here it is the fact that he lost it to the extent where he ceded all control to his co-pilot and then started praying in his panic.

I am sure that if he was praying and was following procedure and, you know, trying to control the plane (eg. doing what he was meant to be doing) and saying "oh my god save us, etc", he would still have been considered the hero. But when it first happened, it would appear as though he lost the plot and made his co-pilot take full control. I doubt he would have been jailed if he shared the load with his co-pilot. He was jailed because he panicked to the point where at the start, he was no longer able to fly the plane. I am sure that even if he wasn't praying but had stayed in his seat and started throwing up after making the co-pilot take control, he'd still have been jailed.

How much do you know about Italy's judicial system?
Don't you think they would have spoken to the experts from around the world before they made a decision? The police ran their investigation parallel to the investigation from the builders of the plane, the air investigation team (whatever it is called in Europe) as well as with the airline itself. I doubt they would have gone after the pilots if all evidence pointed to his having followed procedure from the get go and actually taken control of the plane at the start of the emergency, praying or no praying.
 
never fly with Muslim pilot

From the story: They claimed he then opted to crash-land the plane instead trying to reach a nearby airport.

Calls for speculation....should have been inadmissable.

The real point here is that despite all the praying that probably went on in those last few moments before the crash, people died and a pilot went to jail, thus indicating that praying to a God is a lesson in futility. Yes you can say the survivors had their prayers answered. The truth is God had nothing to do with it.

If you're going to pray, then pray when it is more convenient....this is the message I get from this ruling.
 
Bells, if you're interested in the details of how things transpired after both engines failed in quick succession, click on the report I linked above (sorry it's a large .pdf file) and begin on page 153. As I've already said, the crew set themselves up for this tragedy on the ground, as the accident report also makes abundantly clear, earlier in the report.

But in the moments following the double flameout, things were quite busy and confusing in there: With dual engine failure, most of the instrumentation had gone dark, she was falling out of the sky, only a few standby instruments were working (the lying fuel readout still was) there was no navigation information, no heading/distance information to the nearest airport, and the first priorities involved avoiding a traffic conflict, diverting, and isolating the problem. The crew got right to work on all three in quick succession, with the Captain dividing the taskload between himself and the FO. There was a lot of confusion all stemming from the misreading fuel guage, which made isolating the engine problem very confusing, and did use up a lot of the crew's time. Did they do a perfect job flying the airplane after the unrecognized/misdiagnosed fuel exhaustion? No. Did they make negligent work of it? No. Could most crews be expected to do much better under the same circumstances from flameout to impact? No.

This all stems from Islamophobia and nothing more. People are taking things way out of context among the general public in irrational cultural dissonance- the Italian judges have politicized this, and islamophobes have seized on it. We could just as easily pick on another crew that has met with a deeply perplexing and alarming inflight emergency- that is if they suffer a widely stigmatized cultural attribute. This crew did make fatal errors, but the key errors were made on the ground and were not the result of praying, or any other bizarre or unairmanlike distraction after the engines flamed out. This tragedy was not the result of religious distraction, religious debilitation, religious fatalism, or any other such notion that the culture-warring abusers of aviation accident investigation, perverters of Italian justice, manipulators of the press, and slanderers of message boards are dishing out. Don't fall for it.

"I doubt [The Italian Judge] would have gone after the pilots if all evidence pointed to his having followed procedure from the get go and actually taken control of the plane at the start of the emergency, praying or no praying."

This was a decision motivated by politics and by intercultural dysfunction; a miscarriage of justice. There is no requirement for the Captain to "man the helm" in emergency. We're not talking about some old steamship with one wheel and one master of her fate- we're talking about a modern airliner with dual controls and two fully-qualified pilots trained to deal with emergencies as a team.

"But when it first happened, it would appear as though he lost the plot and made his co-pilot take full control. I doubt he would have been jailed if he shared the load with his co-pilot."

I have seen no evidence that the Captain "lost the plot" in terms of dealing with the emergency that his poor oversight in preflight precipitated. If you want to know where he did go wrong, read the report I have linked from the beginning. That's where they went most terribly wrong, and it did put them in a predicament that was hard to sort out logically. The instruments told them they had two good engines with fuel to burn in them, which called for getting them lit up again.

There are failures of preparation we can make as aircrew that can lead into dark alleys we can't come out of in one piece. This crew's most critical errors happened before they left the gate. I realize it doesn't make for as sensational a story, but it's the truth. Now some bigot may try and convince you that Islam distracted this crew from their preflight duties, but don't you believe it. This case was well investigated, and the chain of errors well established years before this Italian court diverted it into a sensationalist bigotry-fest. Those who have pushed this case into religious issues have done it for reasons that don't involve justice nor accident prevention.
 
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hype said:
ANSV Accident Report (24mb pdf)

Still reviewing, but I see nothing suggesting that the crew's diversion to Palermo was unreasonably delayed.
In that link, a 366 page accident report, nothing in the parts about pilot response supports any attribution of cause to any praying, and the entire event looks much different from the description in the OP Daily News article.

In the timeline (around page 160+) there isn't enough time between the 2nd engine flameout and the captain's sober contacts with the Palermo airport and the cabin crew for the captain to have abdicated his role for extensive prayers.

The only pilot screwup visible in that report as affecting the glide to Palermo was the failure to feather the props, and that was mentioned as important. So maybe that's what the court ruling was based on. Seems a bit thin, though, for an extensive prison sentence.

The only criticism of the piloting crew other than the failure to run through the checklist for dual flameout (which would have feathered the props and added glide time) was a passing mention of the copilot - not the pilot - behaving "mechanically" under the pilot's direction.

The report does mention a member of the cabin crew, a stewardess, being too "distressed" to do her job properly, so that another crewmember is credited with getting everyone's life jackets on and so forth.

The competent crewmember was sitting toward the back, and was killed, if I read the thing correctly. The less able was toward the front, directly involved with the pilots, and apparently survived (?).

If so, we have two people subjected to some personal criticism in the accident report ("mechanical", "distressed") who presumably would have been key witnesses in accounts of a pilot babbling prayers and abdicating his responsibilities.

Just saying.
 
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For a devout Muslim, isn't praying the taking of emergency action? According to UN Resolution the court officers are now criminals.
 
iceaura i am willing to take your word for whats written in the report but out of interest how much experiance had the co-pilot had? Lets say i finish my degree and get a job as an intern and am called out to the train crash i posted earlier. I think i would quite happerly defer to my mentor\partner as they would have ALOT more experiance and this would probably be the first time on a seen like this. In fact the least experianced person is NORMALLY the triage officer while the more experianced takes the command post no matter which seat they are sitting in when they jump in the car (normally left seat is the communications\navigator on the way and then attending at seen and right seat is the driver and also picks up communications once there is a pt and this swaps each case)
 
ops sorry didnt make my point (this wine is going straight to my head:p)

if the co-pilot was "mechanical" wouldnt that be kind of understandable if he was defering compleatly to the pilot because he hadnt experianced this before?
 
asguard said:
iceaura i am willing to take your word for whats written in the report
It's not that bad a read - there's a table of contents, so you can skip right to the good stuff, and it's in large type with diagrams and pictures.

The copilot is described as experienced (something like 5000 hours on that particular model of airplane ? Or maybe that was the whole piloting crew. A lot, anyway).

I skimmed the parts about how much simulator practice with anything like this either pilot had had (it's mentioned, if you're curious) but I doubt this kind of event is something anyone has much experience in.
 
iceaura: "The court ruled that inexcusable pilot screwup caused the failure to make the Palermo airport."


It is not reasonable to dismiss the installation of a misleading fuel indicator, and the failure to follow fueling procedures as primary causes in the emergency that lead to the ditching. There were smaller mistakes on down the line, that may or may not have worsened the outcome- that's something that no investigation can ever ascertain. But certainly, installing a misleading gauge and misfueling the plane led to a perplexing procedure loop, where following procedure kept returning the crew to ever more desperate restart attempts.

If the crew had immediately realized the irreversible source of their engine problems they would have abandoned restart attempts, and it's possible maybe Palermo might have been safely approachable- but that is still not clear from any information I've seen. What has unfortunately come to the fore instead, in a sensationalist reconstruction of events, is the hasty assumption that the last errors in this accident chain are most compelling. They are the most saleable in sensationalist exaggeration. But in a scientific and logical assessment, we look at causation more dispassionately, and realize that sometimes down the line from seemingly mundane errors (like not having enough fuel along with conflicting information about fuel status) a crew can find themselves in a place that the checklists don't lead safely out of.

With miraculous epiphany, they may have dismissed procedure with a "Hail Mary" or equivalent, feathered the props, secured the engines, and trimmed her out for a hands-free glide to Palermo. But the checklists said to run the restart procedures. Restart is draggy, and gobbles up altitude and time, but when a restart is possible, it's prudent. Had they abandoned procedure, they might have had time for a leisurely snack along the quiet glide to an airport- maybe they could have relaxed until it came time to turn the glider into a silent dive-bomber with wheels and flaps laboriously put out to the breeze without the benefit of the engine-driven hydraulic pumps, which could have unraveled into something equally busy and risky to many lives had they wound up stretching the glide over Palermo's rooftops. They didn't do that, because while the window of opportunity to make Palermo was closing, the Captain was working on mixing the fuel he thought he had with the sparks and air he did have to wake his crippled bird back up into some semblance of an airliner.

They were trained to go for relight, and as those attempts failed, it happened that it came down to ditching with the nearest visible help at hand as the best available option. They never figured out what had made their engines so incomprehensibly unresponsive until after the crash.

I think that the title of this thread gets right to the heart of the motivation for this ridicious conviction, that I expect will be overturned soon. Airline unions will come down on this with some very expensive lawyering, and their membership will fully support the effort.


Air regulations begin with the following words for good reason:
The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

Now, there is lots of legality following that, but particularly in those zen moments when some sort of figurative or literal shit is hitting the fan, it is important that we allow the Captain a certain certitude of authority. In some emergencies with some altitude, I have chosen to do ostensibly "nothing" for my own sweet time, and I emphatically reserve the right to do "nothing" comprehensible to any other human being but my own way of getting into the moment. I realize it's a stupid thing to try and convince anyone of in such an anonymous venue as this, but having dealt with emergencies with some "aplomb" shall we say, I demand and assert and will defend in the strongest terms the right and necessity for the Pilot in Command to do what seems best in the most fateful moments of his or her experience.

If the Italian court were making a sincere rebuke or retribution of Captain Gharbi's actions in command of Tuninter 1153, then they would have focused as the aviation investigators did on his lack of attention to fuel accounting duties before departure. They would also have demanded their pound of flesh from the installers of the misleading fuel indicator. But they didn't, and we're left reading headlines and listening to gossip about Muslim prayer. I'm a little bit astounded that intelligent people like you, Bells and iceaura don't see right through this sick charade.

"I skimmed the parts about how much simulator practice with anything like this either pilot had had (it's mentioned, if you're curious) but I doubt this kind of event is something anyone has much experience in."

Well, I do have some experience in inflight emergencies, and sophisticated simulators. As an isolated scenario, dual flameout with fuel guages to the wrong airplane secretly swapped out would be considered a little far-fetched and sadistic, as a challenge to the "victim" of a training session to sort it all out in a flying (not pre-flight) scenario. Especially in the training ATR pilots got before this notorious accident. We pilots read accident reports all the time, and especially ones like this- because most accidents (sadly) are still far less original than this. We read the most outlandishly unlikely ones not only because they're original, but also in hopes that if we're ever trapped in that same spiraling hell of following emergency procedures, but missing the answers, we'll remember a saving insight -a mysterious insight that this perfectly-functional fuel gauge I see before me is not of this plane, and lies- admittedly, it's a more distant little voice, if recent maintenance records are not reviewed before flight (as was also required of this crew).

There's an old flight training sentiment that goes something like this: Superior pilots employ superior judgement, so that we need not to resort to our superior skills to save the day. This tragedy was not sealed with a prayer, and it did not happen because the Captain ran short of the "Right Stuff" in the final minutes. The culture-war slander being advanced, that an aviator's retreat into prayerful inaction was the root cause, is a discredit to every person and institution that entertains it.
 
hype said:
I'm a little bit astounded that intelligent people like you, Bells and iceaura don't see right through this sick charade.
Yeah, rub it in. It is pretty embarrassing. I think that court ruling swayed it for me - but the Daily News? Damn.
 
Don't feel bad- it's easy to overlook how hallowed courts get depraved now and then. The Merchant of Venice lives over and over. I think it's more glaring a miscarriage to me, because I'm always looking collaboratively at accident reports and weighing out what causative factors can be most mitigated. When somebody in authority starts selectively ignoring those, and over-emphasizing something else, then it's reasonable troubleshooting to assume that there may be another sort of dangerous malfunction occurring- ulterior agenda.
 
I will try to get to the report tonight after the kids have gone to bed. I've been out all day shopping for my son's birthday present for tomorrow, so I haven't had much time to sit down and read it.

From what iceaura has found in the report, it would appear I may be mistaken.

As I said before, it wasn't the issue that he started praying. For me the main thing is that the reports state he stopped flying the plane, ceding control in his panic to his co-pilot. As I said before, my response would have been the same if he had curled up in the foetal position sucking his thumb instead of praying. And as I said before, I can understand how or why a believer might have started to pray when faced with such a horrible situation. But if he ceded all control of the plane to his co-pilot, then he did do something wrong.

Anyway, I better go. I'll try and read that report later on tonight, otherwise it will have to be on Sunday night since tomorrow will involve a day of kiddy games, dancing to and birthday cakes. Ah 2 year old's.. *sigh*.. I hate the Wiggles.. there, I've said it!
 
The black box was only the last 5 minutes. The plane glided for 16 minutes. The reason they were jailed is because of what happened in the first few minutes of the whole drama, not the last 5 minutes.


It was those uttered at the start of the emergency when he gave the control of the plane to his copilot in his panic that was the issue. But you're still not getting it. The reason he was found guilty is because of the simple fact that instead of following procedure and taking control of the plane when it all started, he ceded control to his copilot so that he could pray.

But thats just it: he didnt pray at the start of the emergency. The court evidence states that the "prayers" he allegedly said where the ones found in the link I posted with some variations. And thats total BS. Fact of the matter is that he didnt go all head to the ground and praying fulltime. All he said was "Bismillah" and "God help us" and other small Arabic words and sentences. And that is what the court found as praying. You people make it sound as if they werent piloting the plane at all.
 
Which law? Sharia law or the law of civilized nations of the world?

Baron Max

Youd be amazed how similar law is around the world. Anywya, this phrasing of the question can only have a ngeative outcome regardless of how I answer it. So I'll just say something else: it appears he is not familiar with this resolution itself and the other acts and statutes that override it.
 
Youd be amazed how similar law is around the world. Anywya, this phrasing of the question can only have a ngeative outcome regardless of how I answer it. So I'll just say something else: it appears he is not familiar with this resolution itself and the other acts and statutes that override it.
Who is he? The pilot?
If you are talking about the pilot and he was not familial with acts and statutes that override it, he should have never been behind the yoke of an airliner to begin with.
Sorry, but if your religious beliefs interfere with you doing your job, you should not be doing that job. PERIOD
 
Who is he? The pilot?
If you are talking about the pilot and he was not familial with acts and statutes that override it, he should have never been behind the yoke of an airliner to begin with.
Sorry, but if your religious beliefs interfere with you doing your job, you should not be doing that job. PERIOD

Not the pilot, the person I replied to :bugeye::)
 
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