Muslim pilot prayed instead of taking emergency action to land plane... 16 dead

[Oli]

AirlineRs, S.A.M.

I'm guessing very few commercial airlines can impact water without breaking up.

And the technical answer to that is: it all depends.
Some have impacted and not only stayed in one piece but remained afloat for hours (Okay in the instance I have mind it was Nimrod military aircraft, but that's basically a rehashed Comet airliner).
Others have just disintegrated straight away.

 

[mikenostic]

Actually, the plane glided for 16 minutes.

I'm guessing very few commercial airlines can impact water without breaking up.

You wouldn't be too far off. But it also has to do with how the pilot reacts.
When you don't stop to pray like the pilot that landed the Airbus on the Hudson River did, then you stand a good chance of keeping the plane intact.

But in all fairness, these are 100 ton airplanes moving at well over 150 mph (even during their slowest approaches). It wouldn't be easy keeping a plane from disintegrating when hitting the water.

 

[S.A.M.]

I was thinking more along the line that they ran out of fuel at 23,000 feet.

Thats a long way to come down without being able to apply any resistance

 

[Roman]

I'm guessing very few commercial airlines can impact water without breaking up.

From what I understand, planes that are meant to land on the ground do so by touching down and maintaining forward momentum by rolling on their wheels. Since you can't roll wheels too well on water, planes that impact water instead penetrate a small amount, then abruptly stop as the rest of the plane plows into the surface. It's like a 150 to 250 mph impact with concrete. Then the plane just shreds itself.

You ever take a running jump and land with your legs locked? It hurts, and you often fall down. If you land still running, you maintain your forward momentum, so don't sprain every ligament in your legs. Landing on water is kinda like landing with locked legs, since water acts as a solid at high speeds.

 

[S.A.M.]

I was pushed from a one meter diving board once. I landed on my stomach. I know what you mean.

 

[mikenostic]

I was thinking more along the line that they ran out of fuel at 23,000 feet.

I just looked everywhere to see if I could find some information on the ATR's unpowered glide data.
Every aircraft type has this. It's more or less how far distance wise they are able to glide for how far they drop.
A little bitty Cessna 152 has something like a 1:7 glide ratio. Meaning for every foot it falls, it will glide 7 feet. So if it were 1000 meters in the air and the engine went out, you could glide 7000 meters before you touched down.
The bigger the airliner, the worse this ratio gets. I highly doubt that the ATR would glide 7 feet for every one foot dropped. It would probably have more like a 1:3 ratio. So hypothetically speaking, if they lost fuel at 23,000 feet, then they would be able to glide for about 12-15 miles before they touched down. So if they were more than 15 miles off shore, they're going into the drink.
Now, like I said, I couldn't find the information so I'm not sure of the exact number.

Thats a long way to come down without being able to apply any resistance

You can apply resistance in the form of flaps and landing gear, but you'd still have to keep the plane above stall speed, or it would fall out of the sky like a rock. That said, the stall speed could be 120 knots, which is still fairly fast.

 

[jayleew]

Who cares if the guys prayed or not? The fact that they panicked and killed 16 people rather than not being pussies is reason enough to send them to jail. Negligently killing people is manslaughter.

Those few precious seconds when the plane was going into a terminal dive could have been used to level it off so the impact with whatever surface they hit wouldn't turn the plane into chunks. Instead, they didn't do anything.

Whatever! This is all circumstantial and speculation, I want to hear about aerodynamics! I seriously doubt some of you folks are taking this into consideration. Was it physically possible to have a better outcome of this crash? What little I know about the physics involved is, depending on the plane's design, it lends itself to be easier or harder to control without power. It being a turbo-prop, they have much less airspeed to play with that's for sure.

What I'm saying is you guys can't come out here and say crap like this without proving that it was physically possible to have a better outcome without looking like a windbag.

"Those few seconds could be used to level the plane off."

What the hell do you know about that plane's aerodynamics and the conditions of the atmosphere at that time? Unless there is evidence to prove negligence, I assume that this was an accident in a potentially dangerous activity. I see no act of negligence on the pilot's shoulders.

 

[Roman]

Whatever! This is all circumstantial and speculation, I want to hear about aerodynamics! I seriously doubt some of you folks are taking this into consideration. Was it physically possible to have a better outcome of this crash? What little I know about the physics involved is, depending on the plane's design, it lends itself to be easier or harder to control without power. It being a turbo-prop, they have much less airspeed to play with that's for sure.

What I'm saying is you guys can't come out here and say crap like this without proving that it was physically possible to have a better outcome without looking like a windbag.

"Those few seconds could be used to level the plane off."

What the hell do you know about that plane's aerodynamics and the conditions of the atmosphere at that time? Unless there is evidence to prove negligence, I assume that this was an accident in a potentially dangerous activity. I see no act of negligence on the pilot's shoulders.

I'm assuming the court of law that charged him of criminal negligence took all those things into account.

Unless there is evidence to prove negligence, I assume that this was an accident in a potentially dangerous activity. I see no act of negligence on the pilot's shoulders.

That's because you are a moron.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Whatever! This is all circumstantial and speculation, I want to hear about aerodynamics! I seriously doubt some of you folks are taking this into consideration. Was it physically possible to have a better outcome of this crash? What little I know about the physics involved is, depending on the plane's design, it lends itself to be easier or harder to control without power. It being a turbo-prop, they have much less airspeed to play with that's for sure.

What I'm saying is you guys can't come out here and say crap like this without proving that it was physically possible to have a better outcome without looking like a windbag.

"Those few seconds could be used to level the plane off."

What the hell do you know about that plane's aerodynamics and the conditions of the atmosphere at that time? Unless there is evidence to prove negligence, I assume that this was an accident in a potentially dangerous activity. I see no act of negligence on the pilot's shoulders.

This is nothing more than an excuse for nutjobs to paint a bad picture of religion, and/or muslims/islam.

jan.

 

[Roman]

What if he passed the controls off to his copilot so he could quickly masturbate one last time before he dies? Would that have been ok?

Or maybe text his boss "oh hai im crashin ur plane lol"?

 

[jayleew]

I'm assuming the court of law that charged him of criminal negligence took all those things into account.

I agree, there must be tons of facts that we are not aware of, which really makes the article look terrible.

That's because you are a moron.

You are making a judgement on me without all the evidence, just as you are this case. Are you really that gullible?

All I'm saying is you can't say, "They could have used those few seconds to the level the plane off" without some evidence. Instead, you can say, "IMO, they could have used..." or "I think there are some facts that aren't being presented, which makes me think there was negligence involved."

 

[jayleew]

This is nothing more than an excuse for nutjobs to paint a bad picture of religion, and/or muslims/islam.

jan.

Either the article is making it appear so, or yes it is an attack on theists. We just don't have enough facts on the case to make any kind of rational conclusion.

 

[jayleew]

What if he passed the controls off to his copilot so he could quickly masturbate one last time before he dies? Would that have been ok?

Or maybe text his boss "oh hai im crashin ur plane lol"?

Again, your rhetorical question here is an immature judgement. This blind faith crap sickens me. If the entire nation of China said, "Pigs in fact do fly, here is a picture." you would believe them.

 

[S.A.M.]

You can apply resistance in the form of flaps and landing gear, but you'd still have to keep the plane above stall speed, or it would fall out of the sky like a rock. That said, the stall speed could be 120 knots, which is still fairly fast.

How do you maintain the aircraft above stall speed without fuel?

 

[Arsalan]

She is, and it seems you are too.

What you fail miserably to understand is that pilots go through hundreds of hours of perpetual training. They are trained NOT to panic in situations like this. In fact, most modern airliners have automated systems that will take the plane off and land it better than the pilot can. In those types of airliners (the 777 is a prime example), the only reason the pilots are there is to monitor the systems and take over in case of an emergency.
I don't care how your distorted perception allows you to view this situation, but panicking and praying are not in any S.O.P. of any airline.

So perhaps their training wasnt top notch? Have you even listened to the black box? I find it funny how people will trust an article from the Daily Fail but not listen to the black box themselves. What eyewitnesses were there to see him cede control of the plane? Seriously, theres something wrong with the way this case was handled. Giving a pilot 10 years for manslaughter is total BS when he did what he thought he could do with the plane at that time. He didnt pray and he didnt stop for 10 minutes. It takes time to find out what the hell is going on and then react.

 

[iceaura]

You obviously dont know the difference between a full prayer and what he said. Just listen to the black box link. It is alleged by the prosecutors that he stopped everything to do a full prayer. Thats not the case from what I can hear from the black box recording.

You only have the last five minutes to listen to.

That was several minutes after the prayer break, and after the plane had lost its chance to glide to the airport.

At that point, according to the court decision and the evidence released, the pilot had already screwed up and lost the plane - if he could have then ditched safely and saved the passengers, he might not have ended up in jail, but he was out of a job.

People can panic, it's a personal failing. But ceding the controls to the copilot in order to pray at the most critical moment of an emergency is a specifically religious manner of screwing up, and in this case it appears to have cost the plane an airport landing and a dozen people their lives.

 

[mikenostic]

How do you maintain the aircraft above stall speed without fuel?

You don't. You have to glide it to the ground the best you can w/o crashing it too badly and killing anyone.

If you lose your engines and you can't get them restarted, you HAVE to land the plane, or else it will fall out of the sky anyway.

 

[Arsalan]

You only have the last five minutes to listen to.

That was several minutes after the prayer break, and after the plane had lost its chance to glide to the airport.

At that point, according to the court decision and the evidence released, the pilot had already screwed up and lost the plane - if he could have then ditched safely and saved the passengers, he might not have ended up in jail, but he was out of a job.

People can panic, it's a personal failing. But ceding the controls to the copilot in order to pray at the most critical moment of an emergency is a specifically religious manner of screwing up, and in this case it appears to have cost the plane an airport landing and a dozen people their lives.

According to the case evidence it is exactly during those minutes that he started to pray. It is those religious utterings that have been labelled as prayer. And this is the problem with the label of the case. If the only evidence that he prayed is in those last 5 minutes or so, there is no evidence at all. Ya, he shouldnt have ceded control, but theres no evidence that he prayed.

 

[S.A.M.]

You don't. You have to glide it to the ground the best you can w/o crashing it too badly and killing anyone.

If you lose your engines and you can't get them restarted, you HAVE to land the plane, or else it will fall out of the sky anyway.

Then how did the plane glide for 16 minutes after they ran out of fuel?

 

[mikenostic]

So perhaps their training wasnt top notch? Have you even listened to the black box?

Have you listened to it?

I find it funny how people will trust an article from the Daily Fail but not listen to the black box themselves. What eyewitnesses were there to see him cede control of the plane? Seriously, theres something wrong with the way this case was handled. Giving a pilot 10 years for manslaughter is total BS when he did what he thought he could do with the plane at that time. He didnt pray and he didnt stop for 10 minutes. It takes time to find out what the hell is going on and then react.

Whoa. I'm not arguing against what punishment he got. I'm arguing that he is responsible for the plane and its contents. He is also responsible for ensuring he follows emergency procedures to a T to the best of his ability.
Now IF, he did panic and start praying and handed the controls over to his copilot, he's still responsible. He's still ultimately responsible if the copilot had screwed up the landing; you can delegate authority, but not responsiblility.
Now, do I think 10 years is a bit much? Sure I do. But at the very least he should have lost his job and ATP license.