Muslim Cleric Calls For Beheading of Dutch Politician

[Michael]

Buddhism predates Islam - so does the Shinto religion. The Chinese traveled as far as the Arabs did and the Japanese could have if they wanted to. Both religions were available for all those who were interested and Islam is a much younger religion and the fact that so many more people are Muslims shows that your premise is flawed. Buddhism on the other hand is completely wiped out from India.

SAM, I'm not sure what the hell you're on, but I've noticed that over the last few months to half a year, your sense of logic has greatly diminished. I mean, in the past I always counted you as being somewhat logical - at least up to a point. Lately you're just off your game. Buddhism is wiped out of India? Yea right. Your AVERAGE Japanese traveled outside of Japan and so maybe Ja'far would have been Islamic? Yeah, put down the glass cock you're sharing with IamJoseph and slowly walk away from the crack.

Look, most people believe what they are taught to believe. Most people speak the language they are taught to speak. Sure, some people change their belief and some people take up an entirely new language later in their adult life. Most don't.

Now, if I were to asked Ja'far: If you were raised in Japan in the 1100s what language do you think you would have spoke? Do you know what answer he would NOT have given me? This one: OMG OMG OMG, there's just, ta, like, soo soo sooooo many wariables. Like OMG. OMG. I just can't even fathom what language I'd have spoken, I mean, like, OMG Oh, I know, I would have traveled to Persia and like, spoke Persian or something like that. I mean, with all the variable that's just as likely as me speaking Japanese... Yeah, that's my answer. Persian. In my heart I feel better now. Allah is Great.


Because I asked about Ja'far's belief, oOOOOoooOOoooooo now it's, like OMG, total mind f*ck :bugeye: I mean, maybe I would have traveled to Iran and been a Shia... like OMG. Yea, like, that's my total answer. I'd have been a Shia

 

[Michael]

RE: Muslim Cleric Calls For Beheading of Dutch Politician

Because he's a f*ckwhit who feels better thinking he knows something as he's read a magic book - in reality he is barely f*cking literate. He wouldn't know Logic if it dick whipped him in the face.

 

[Michael]

china'll swollow you whole..just wait and see

What you don't get is it's ChinAmerica. We're slowly merging into one nation. Chinese factories are now opening up in the USA. Mandarin Chinese is soon to be a second language in the USA and more Chinese speaking English than Americans! And I think it's going to be good

ChinAmerica will need two things: OIL LAND, we'll see where that equation take us.

 

[S.A.M.]

Look, most people believe what they are taught to believe.

If that were true we would all still be pagans. How do you think 1.5 billion people are Muslims if most people believe what they are taught to believe? How did so many become Muslims in just 1400 something years? Even if we average out 50,000 years for human history, that is just a drop in the ocean. Use that logic you claim you possess.

 

[IamJoseph]

If that were true we would all still be pagans. How do you think 1.5 billion people are Muslims if most people believe what they are taught to believe? How did so many become Muslims in just 1400 something years? Even if we average out 50,000 years for human history, that is just a drop in the ocean. Use that logic you claim you possess.

One cannot omit that Islam emerged after the pre-islamic people were in the midst of Jews from 586 BCE in Babylon [Mesopotamia]. At this time Jews were monotheists and the Arabs were polytheists. That's how Islam emerged. One cannot apply revelation to say the sun rose yesterday.

 

[Michael]

If that were true we would all still be pagans. How do you think 1.5 billion people are Muslims if most people believe what they are taught to believe? How did so many become Muslims in just 1400 something years? Even if we average out 50,000 years for human history, that is just a drop in the ocean. Use that logic you claim you possess.

Are you still smoking crack? I told you woman, put down the F-n pipe.

Here larger
Now try to project all the way back to the 700s.

Secondly, yes, under duress people will change their belief relatively quickly. For example: if the USA invaded Iraq AND forced people to be Christian, taxed people who Muslim etc.. YES, people will change their belief. Likewise when a ruler took a new religion, well, everyone just was that new religion.l
THAT never happened in 1100s Japan.

Thirdly, yes, if there's a revolutionary idea, usually an indigenous movement (one that isn't suppressed say, like the Bahai') and it comes along at an opportune time, yes, belief may evolve.
THAT never happened in 1100s Japan.

Fourthly, MOST people believe what they were taught to believe. Take you and Ja'far as your typical examples.
That's why most people in Iran are Shia Muslims and most people in India are Hindu. See how simple that is to understand SAM? Or is THAT just too complex for you? Does it shock you people in Iran are usually Shia? Do you think if you were born in Iran you'd just as likely be a Shinto or a Scientology? As if THAT was as likely as a Shia? Why do you think most people are Shia in Iran? Do you think maybe that has somethign to, oh I don't know, do with how their parents raised them? Which superstitious ideas they were indoctrinated with?


Your typical Japanese person was not allowed to leave their plot of land and they worked it from the beginning of their life to the end. The building of Buddhist monasteries and Shinto Shrines were of course tightly controlled. There were no other beliefs. Lords kept religion and it's influence over people on a short leash. Just like they did pretty much everywhere.

At this moment in History, with the flow of information unprecedented, who knows what the future holds. THAT was not the case in 1100s Japan. In all likelihood, anyone born in 1100s Japan would have been polytheistic because 99.99999999% of Japanese were polytheistic. You SAM would have been polytheistic. Just as I would have been. And Ja'far would have been. It's really that simple.

Not that it matters. I already know the answer. What is interesting is how theists respond to the question. Which is typical. There's nothing at all surprising Ja'far's answer. I only wish we could get funding to measure what's going on with the neocortical function. Of course it's important not to have too much plasticity but too little and you're and idiot. Then again, it could be conductivity. I'm sure there's some logical rational "reductionist" reason for the inability of theists to think rationally about their religion.

Here watch this:

Xenu, an Alien Overlord who flew people here in intergalactic DC10s - seems kind of ridiculous doesn't it?

Mohammad, a Prophet who split the moon to two peaces and flew on a magical fairy horse to heaven - now the ridiculous seems totally plausible doesn't it?

A person born in medieval Japan probably spoke Japanese and was polytheistic. Seems likely.

SAM born in medieval Japan, somehow sailed India spoke Hindu and became a Muslim... oh, now this seems likely too.

 

[S.A.M.]

If MOST people believe what they were taught to believe you have nothing to worry about. Islam is only 1400 years old, so MOST people will follow the beliefs that they were already taught to believe before Islam. I mean, there is no reason to conceive of Indians and Indonesians and Malaysians and Chinese and Japanese and above all westerners as turning to Islam. The people I know who have converted to Islam obviously, they are statistical outliers who in their heart of hearts will continue to believe what they have been taught to believe since their conversion could only have been under duress.

 

[Sock puppet path]

some people'd rather die for their opinions to be respected.
that's something you'll just never understand.

You don't understand and you can't seem to even answer correctly. What you meant to type was that "some people'd are willing to murder for their opinions to be respected." Murder does not generate respect in a civil society. Or were you referring to Wilders being willing to die for his opinion that Islam is crap?

maybe not your mankind.. but it sure decelerates the pace our mankind is heading into annihilation :shrug:

it's a "clash of civilizatins", if you may.

No, as Wafa Sultan put it it is "a clash of the 7th century with the modern world!" It is the 7th century which is now finally heading into annihilation :shrug:

What you and many muslims don't understand is that it is exactly your mentality that facilitates dictators in muslim lands, ie. just murder the opposition. You are too busy blaming the west for the fact that your own mentality is the cause for your own problem. Which muslim country did you have to leave for to the west because you were oppressed?

 

[scifes]

You don't understand and you can't seem to even answer correctly. What you meant to type was that "some people'd are willing to murder for their opinions to be respected."

i meant what i said.
for people who are ready to die for what they respect are also ready to kill for what they respect.

Murder does not generate respect in a civil society.

a civil society doesn't give people freedom to insult others.

No, as Wafa Sultan put it it is "a clash of the 7th century with the modern world!" It is the 7th century which is now finally heading into annihilation :shrug:

along with whatever traces of individuality we have left.

What you and many muslims don't understand is that it is exactly your mentality that facilitates dictators in muslim lands, ie. just murder the opposition. You are too busy blaming the west for the fact that your own mentality is the cause for your own problem.

and so, we should adhere to your mentality?
think like us or you're barbarians.
let us think for you, or you're barbarians.

i don't think so.

 

[iceaura]

If that were true we would all still be pagans. How do you think 1.5 billion people are Muslims if most people believe what they are taught to believe? How did so many become Muslims in just 1400 something years?

The same way most people became Catholic in Mexico.

They are Catholic now, the culture remains heavily Catholic, because that's how they were raised, of course.

Individual conversion by choice, independent of the community religion, does not explain a billion Muslims any more than it explains the millions of Catholics in Mexico.

 

[spidergoat]

a civil society doesn't give people freedom to insult others.

Yes it does, that's exactly what freedom of speech means. It doesn't just apply when people are being nice, it's especially important when the subject matter seems offensive to others.

 

[Sock puppet path]

i meant what i said.
for people who are ready to die for what they respect are also ready to kill for what they respect.

No that is not what you said you said die for what they respect that is an entirely different thing and something that is respected in civil society. Holland doesn't have the death penalty.

a civil society doesn't give people freedom to insult others.

As Spidergoat pointed out yes they do differences of opinion are allowed unlike in most muslim countries (which one did you have to abandon again?)

along with whatever traces of individuality we have left.

and so, we should adhere to your mentality?
think like us or you're barbarians.
let us think for you, or you're barbarians.

i don't think so.

What do you not understand about not being allowed to murder someone who disagrees with you? (perhaps a holdover from the muslim country you had to leave??)

 

[Michael]

If MOST people believe what they were taught to believe you have nothing to worry about. Islam is only 1400 years old, so MOST people will follow the beliefs that they were already taught to believe before Islam. I mean, there is no reason to conceive of Indians and Indonesians and Malaysians and Chinese and Japanese and above all westerners as turning to Islam. The people I know who have converted to Islam obviously, they are statistical outliers who in their heart of hearts will continue to believe what they have been taught to believe since their conversion could only have been under duress.

Again, you're crapping on about some tangent. If you were born in Japan in 1100s you'd speak Japanese and you'd be polytheistic. It's that simple SAM. You would not be Muslim, you would not speak Hindu and you would not believe in One God. The reason you are Muslim is because you were indoctrinated with Islamic superstitions when you were young. Born in another time and another place, you would have a completely different set of superstitions "that make 'sense' to you".

Which is fine. I don't see why you have a bee up your butt :shrug:
What is so hard to 'get' here SAM?

Do you honestly think if you were born into an Aztec family in Mexco in the year 1100 you'd worship anything other than the Aztec Gods? Jesus, grab with both hands and pull your head out.



Lastly, Islam is a boon to the USA. Islam helps maintain our competitive edge over Islamic countries by keeping them superstitious and ignorant. In this way we don't have to worry about serious competition from Islamic countries, not in the same way we have to worry about competition from Chinese or Japanese. Islam is so good at keeping Islamic societies backwards one almost wonders if it weren't a Western ploy that you are so Islamic. Isn't it ironic, you keep railing against "The West" and then go back to reading the Qur'an, Western Christian literature - and all the while you have insightful enlightened Indian literature all around you. Ever wonder why Indian Philosophy doesn't seem to 'make sense' to you, but flying carpets and splitting moons does?



Oh, and I support the education all people, including Muslims, with reason and logic - not maintaining their superstitious fairytales.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Most Shinto are also Buddhists. In Japan both are generally polytheistic. So, in all likelihood (that is, assuming you were your average Japanese) you would be a polytheistic Japanese and, in the same way you believe in One God now, in that situation you would have truly believed 'in your heart' there were multiple Gods ....and Goddesses. Agreed?

Deity plays virtually no role in the Buddha Dharma and even when the question of the existance of Diety(ies) has been brought up, you are given a very vague answer both from the Buddha and Buddhist scholars. Sure, some pay homage and prayer to various God(s), they usually aren't Theravadin and are Mahayanists, Japan (generally speaking) has been primarily Mahayanist and the influence of the indigenous Shinto faith should be noted. I get what you're trying to say, I get the point you're trying to make however it's mute. Fact is, I am Muslim and this is 2010, sure a lot of things may have been, if you factor in enough variables I'm sure X would be X in X if they were X and X and X happened.

I'm not lining up anything.

Yes, you are. You're picking a specific time and place and putting my in a very specific group. In this hypothetical situation it's 1100, I'm Japanese and was born and raised Shinto. Again, you're not taking into account reality. Yes, in history sometimes we do make these assumptions but it doesn't mean that they are accurate or correct.

It's a fact that your average Japanese was polytheistic. People believe what they are taught to believe, there's nothing surprising here, it's exactly the reason why you are Muslim.

No, it's not and like usual, you're do a lot of assuming here. Yes, I was born and raised Muslim. Yes, I grew up in a society and culture that was also Islamic however these aren't the sole or primary motivating factor to me being Muslim and staying Muslim. I am Muslim because I, through study, time, reflection, etc. have come to believe fully in the message teachings of Islam much in the same manner that you became an Atheist through study, time, relfection, etc. Why do you make such assumptions? Why do you assume that I'm some mindless automaton, that is Muslim simply because of these mere reasons?

 

[iceaura]

Yes, I grew up in a society and culture that was also Islamic however these aren't the sole or primary motivating factor to me being Muslim and staying Muslim

Yes, they are.

That's the point. Your upbringing is the primary factor in everything from your initial worldview to

I am Muslim because I, through study, time, reflection, etc. have come to believe fully in the message teachings of Islam much in the same manner that you became an Atheist through study, time, relfection, etc.

what you studied when you came of age to study.

You studied the message and teachings of Islam. That is not a coincidence.

 

[S.A.M.]

If you were born in Japan in 1100s you'd speak Japanese and you'd be polytheistic. It's that simple SAM. .

Instead of which I am born in India and I speak Urdu and I'm Muslim. How weird is that?

 

[Michael]

Yes, they are.

That's the point. Your upbringing is the primary factor in everything from your initial worldview to what you studied when you came of age to study.

You studied the message and teachings of Islam. That is not a coincidence.

It's interesting isn't it?

Instead of which I am born in India and I speak Urdu and I'm Muslim. How weird is that?

and let me guess, you have some family members which are Muslim. Yeah, I'm psychic - it's shocking huh

If you were born in Mexico in the 1100s and spoke Urdu and was Muslim - now that would be something wouldn't it?

 

[S.A.M.]

It's interesting isn't it?

and let me guess, you have some family members which are Muslim. Yeah, I'm psychic - it's shocking huh

If you were born in Mexico in the 1100s and spoke Urdu and was Muslim - now that would be something wouldn't it?

Go back 1400 years if you like and you can work out exactly how my family members are Muslims. At some pointyou're going to have to figure out how one Mohammed leads to 1.5 billion followers of Islam with most people following their family members. On the other hand if Arab evangelists had made it to Mexico and Japan perhaps they would be Muslim countries. The idea being that being a theist and being a member of a religion which you accept are two completely different things - theism would be a necessary prerequisite to following any organised religion. And it would seem that evolution favours theism so its as much a matter of "chance" that one is a Muslim as one is a male or female or even conceived at all.

 

[IamJoseph]

figure out how one Mohammed leads to 1.5 billion followers of Islam

The sword helped, and a fatwah for any who changed their mind keeps them together. Christianity and Buddhism beat you as far as numbers go. What is more interesting than your question is how come no non-muslims accept any of your doctrines and laws, and how the Jewish messenger has more humans believing him - here the numbers become far more than 1.5B. But Islam will rule - even by force! Amazing when statistics are made without omissions, hah!?

The fundamental things apply.

 

[S.A.M.]

The sword helped, and a fatwah for any who changed their mind keeps them together. Christianity and Buddhism beat you as far as numbers go. What is more interesting than your question is how come no non-muslims accept any of your doctrines and laws, and how the Jewish messenger has more humans believing him - here the numbers become far more than 1.5B. But Islam will rule - even by force! Amazing when statistics are made without omissions, hah!?

The fundamental things apply.

nirakar is still waiting for you to tell him how the country of Indonesia was forced into Islam...historically, Islam spreads faster in times of peace than in times of war.

American historian Ira Lapidus points towards "interwoven terms of political and economic benefits and of a sophisticated culture and religion" as appealing to the masses.[7] He writes that :

"The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare. Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary. (...) In most cases worldly and spiritual motives for conversion blended together. Moreover, conversion to Islam did not necessarily imply a complete turning from an old to a totally new life. While it entailed the acceptance of new religious beliefs and membership in a new religious community, most converts retained a deep attachment to the cultures and communities from which they came."[7]

Richard Bulliet's "conversion curve" shows a relatively low rate of conversion of non-Arab subjects during the Arab centric Umayyad period of 10%, in contrast with estimates for the more politically multicultural Abbasid period which saw the Muslim population grow from approx. 40% in the mid 9th century to close to 100% by the end of the 11th century.[10]. This theory does not explain the continuing existence of large minorities of Christians in the Abbasid Period. Other estimates suggest that Muslims were not a majority in Egypt until the mid-10th century and in the Fertile Crescent until 1100. Syria may have had a Christian majority within its modern borders until the Mongol Invasions of the 13th century.