Most convincing evidense concerning aliens, ufos, and the government coverup.

[James R]

Why would they lie?

Because they have a lot of spare time these days (they're ex-military), and they think this kind of thing will bring them personal fame and/or fortune.

 

[Rick]

its evidence. and not 's'.Stryder or poster could change that please?

 

[phlogistician]

its evidence. and not 's'.Stryder or poster could change that please?

Nope, it should stand as it is. I've noticed a fairly good correlation between spelling and grammatical howlers, and the disposition towards being a woowoo.

 

[SkinWalker]

Why would all those people lie? [...]

Why would all those ex military lie and make themselves look like fools?

They believe. Just as people flock to the Potter's House on Sunday to give TD Jakes their money... just as people yell Amen! in revival tents where a reverend just made a old lady throw down her walker... these people believe in the "extraterrestrial" answer to unidentified flying objects.

Some probably outright lied. Those individuals justify their lies for the cause in the same way a baptist preacher will stand up and say, "I heard god call me by name!" Some have probably embellished their stories without even realizing it, in the same way that one witness notices a bank robber was an African American with a blue getaway car -another says Hispanic and a green car.

It's all anecdotal. You can get a thousand people together to say that a silly diet pill will changed their lives when it didn't... surely you can get a bunch of UFO believers together to promote their beliefs.

 

[Ophiolite]

I read the excerpt from that Carl Sagan book. Not interested, he sounds like a intellectual closeminded fool.

Do you have even the remotest idea what that makes you sound like to anyone who has even the glimmerings of intelligence, a smattering of an education, and a smidegeon of objectivity. I rather think not, or you would not have been so cretinous as to make the statement. Tell me, is it dark with your head buried so far up your ass?

 

[Silas]

That's a bit harsh, evidently the guy barely has enough education to allow him to type on a keyboard, let alone have heard of Carl Sagan.

I assumed this guy was maybe a little naïve , but it turns out he just blindly believes anything he reads from a supermarket shelf. He's not even intelligent enough to understand the reasoning behind someone saying "the Jews are behind everything".... Jews is just a word to him with no more real meaning than Freemasons or Illuminati. He might as well believe that it's David Icke's 12-foot reptilians.

As to Stephen Greer, I saw that site a while ago, and I was so disappointed. Just for once you want to find a woo-woo who actually takes their subject seriously enough to make themselves sound credible. But the news page with "Dr. Stephen Greer talks to...." "Dr. Stephen Greer meets up with...." Dude, it's not cool to put "Doctor" by your name every time, it makes you look like a dork!

 

[barehandkiller]

All you guys in denial are fools, you will ask for evidence and proof, and while no one can give you a alien craft or similar to study there are enough accounts of sightings, cases of abductions etc etc to give it credibility of existance. Im sure some accounts are false or weatherballoons instead of aliencraft but all of them? theres to many. And look at the peoples faces in The Disclosure Projects videos, listen to there voices, theyare telling the truth or there the best liars i've ever seen. Your continued relentless attempts to discount and discredit aliens, spacecraft, etc :bugeye: lead me to believe at least 1 of you ordered to do so by the evil shadow government.

 

[Ophiolite]

I confess. You have got me dead to rights. Yes, I am a secret agent of the shadow government, which is in truth run by alien entities. I have taken over the body of the poster known as Ophiolite. I am making this declaration at this time because it is the surest way of being disbelieved. It will make my disguise impregnable, when not even a perceptive individual, such as yourself is prepared to believe that I am an alien.

 

[Goblin]

I realize people lie on TV selling snake oil diet pills etc. They do it for a large profit. They are greedy people.

Not a very scientific explanation as to why the people in the video were lying..

Maybe background checks into each individual, use lie detectors etc. That would at least be better than going into denial mode and calling people liars because what they have to say seems impossible. Remember we do not know it all. I am a friend with some local physicists, and others who work at our cyclotron. They will be the first to admit that we are just at the tip of the iceberg in our understanding of the subatomic world.

I know two old people that worked at Hamilton airforce base in the 50s. His wife worked for Blue Book. They have zero interest in talking to anyone about what they did while at the military. They had some interesting information. No reason to lie as no money, no fame etc. Never have been on TV never been interviewed nor do they want to be ever.

They could have been lying too, but not for the reasons you gave.

On the other side of the coin, do not underestimate the power of denial.
Just as there are people that are willing to beleive in anything without any evidense at all there are people that will deny just about anything that does not agree with their beliefs. Ask any heavy drinker if they have a problem, many will deny deny deny. That is until they hit rock bottom.

They believe. Just as people flock to the Potter's House on Sunday to give TD Jakes their money... just as people yell Amen! in revival tents where a reverend just made a old lady throw down her walker... these people believe in the "extraterrestrial" answer to unidentified flying objects.

Some probably outright lied. Those individuals justify their lies for the cause in the same way a baptist preacher will stand up and say, "I heard god call me by name!" Some have probably embellished their stories without even realizing it, in the same way that one witness notices a bank robber was an African American with a blue getaway car -another says Hispanic and a green car.

It's all anecdotal. You can get a thousand people together to say that a silly diet pill will changed their lives when it didn't... surely you can get a bunch of UFO believers together to promote their beliefs.

 

[SkinWalker]

I'm also in denial about pink miniture elephants roaming my neighborhood at night. Indeed, I'm in denial about gay poltergeists that are rumoured to decorate rooms as residents sleep in my city.

Provide me with evidence of any of the above that go beyond anecdotal accounts -regardless of the number- and I'll revise my position. Until then, pink, miniture elephants, homosexual spirits, and alien spacecraft are all far-fetched and extremely improbable.

There simply isn't any physical evidence. Moreover, embellishment is common among witnesses of extraordinary events, and it should be expected and appropriately dealt with. The so-called "ufologists" do not.

 

[Goblin]

I hear ya. seeing is believing. Until I see a saucer myself I will have some doubt.

But take a look at the Universe. If I could not see galaxies with my telescope and hubble photos. I would say someone was on some good drugs telling me how large it is and how many stars are out there. That seems super far fetched. But yet its there and we can see it on every clear night.

Our current understanding of quantum physics is too limited to say that someday we can't find loopholes for traveling vast distances. There is no speed limit on the expansion of space itself, space can stretch faster than the speed of light. Wormholes are a loop hole in speed or light limit.

Most UFO evidense is anecdotal, but that does not mean it can't be happening. They do not conform to our rules for scientific testing. As long as they do not there is going to be skeptacism. I just think there needs to be
more mainstream scientist looking into it. Most have a real and well founded fear of career suicide. If they can dump money into SETI (which has produced zilch) then dump some money into figuring out why all these sightings continue to occur all over the world.

I'm going to try to keep an open mind. Don't want to be like one of those ancient experts that thought the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth

I'm also in denial about pink miniture elephants roaming my neighborhood at night. Indeed, I'm in denial about gay poltergeists that are rumoured to decorate rooms as residents sleep in my city.

Provide me with evidence of any of the above that go beyond anecdotal accounts -regardless of the number- and I'll revise my position. Until then, pink, miniture elephants, homosexual spirits, and alien spacecraft are all far-fetched and extremely improbable.

There simply isn't any physical evidence. Moreover, embellishment is common among witnesses of extraordinary events, and it should be expected and appropriately dealt with. The so-called "ufologists" do not.

 

[James R]

barehandkiller:

All you guys in denial are fools, you will ask for evidence and proof, and while no one can give you a alien craft or similar to study there are enough accounts of sighting, cases of abductions etc etc to give it credibility of existance.

Lots of people claim to have met the Virgin Mary, or seen a vision of her. Do you believe them, too? Lots of people claim that crystals can have healing properties? Do you believe them? In the past, there were thousands of accounts of sailors seeing Mermaids on sea voyages. Do you believe in mermaids?

If you don't believe in some of these things, please tell me why not. After all, there are many many accounts of them, and a lot of the people talking about these things sounded really genuine.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Maybe this will help you to understand the methodology being used here in what I call "scifoolems", but why would anybody go to all this trouble to keep ones from talking about such things?

Wrote by "btimsah"

#1.) The burden of proof is always on the woo-woo making a sensational claim, even when he or she is not making a claim. Cause them to get frustrated.

#2.) After a woo-woo gets banned or leaves a discussion, chant the following 3 times: “Mundane Claims Win The Day, Mundane Claims Win The Day, Mundane Claims Win The Day”.

#3.) None of you’re claims need to be proven, because you’re not the one making a sensational claim. Keep repeating this to yourself so as to make sure the woo-woo can’t ever challenge you.

#4.) If you let a woo-woo go, without impugning or attacking them personally, then you are not doing it correctly. You must find them stupid, and inferior.

#5.) Woo-woo’s are stupid and inferior.

#6.) A sensational claim is only wrong, if it’s presented by a woo-woo, or someone not as educated as yourself. If a fellow debunker presents a sensational claim, pretend the idea has merrit. (Take one for the team)

#7.) Always explain away a UFO as natural, remember you don’t have to prove anything. If you claim it’s something natural, the burden of proof is on them to prove it’s not natural. This way you can claim it’s anything.

#8.) The truth can be our enemy, if the truth supports a sensational claim. It’s then you’re job to distort or confuse the truth so as to support a more mundane explanation.

#9.) Don’t ever offer words of support, or agreement with a woo-woo. Constantly attack, harass and confuse them. Remember how much smarter, and more important you are than a stupid woo-woo.

#10.) Visit www.badastronomy.com and find a woo-woo to be destroyed. Search the banned list to reminisce and enjoy you’re past work. If the banned user’s list does not exist create one. Use this to compare other woo-woo’s to past ones.

 

[SkinWalker]

hmmmmm, does this ring a bell? To any one?

Not to me. Phlog? Arch? Ophi? You guys seen this stuff before? Was there a meeting I missed? Damnit. God Damnity-Damn! I paid my freakin' union dues guys!

#1.) The burden of proof is always on the woo-woo making a sensational claim, even when he or she is not making a claim. Cause them to get frustrated.

The "woo-woo" or anyone else that makes an extraordinary claim will always have the burden of proof in science. The so-called "woo-woo" simply gets pissed when they get held accountable to the same standard as those with educations. The bar cannot be lowered out of pity. But if they aren't making a claim, why would they have any burden of proof at all?

#2.) After a woo-woo gets banned or leaves a discussion, chant the following 3 times: “Mundane Claims Win The Day, Mundane Claims Win The Day, Mundane Claims Win The Day”.

I can't stand it when woo-woo's get banned. That's one of the reasons why sciforums has always appealed to me. Without the occasional woo-woo, it would be dull. Besides, I believe that all voices have the right to be heard, even the ones that are full of BS. But, conversely, I believe in the right to provide a counter-argument if warranted.

#3.) None of you’re claims need to be proven, because you’re not the one making a sensational claim. Keep repeating this to yourself so as to make sure the woo-woo can’t ever challenge you.

Anyone who makes a claim or cites a fact should be ready to provide sources for information. Particularly when refuting nutty claims and speculative assumptions that are being passed off as reality.

#4.) If you let a woo-woo go, without impugning or attacking them personally, then you are not doing it correctly. You must find them stupid, and inferior.

Attacking the person is simply wrong and it's bad form. I've been known to do it on occasion though I think I've kept it to a bare minimum and I remember apologizing more than once. However, I also have noted that many so-called "woo-woo's" regard attacks on their "theories" to be personal attacks. Crazymikey responded this way back in the day on more than one occasion.

#5.) Woo-woo’s are stupid and inferior.

Nah. That's simply unfounded. While there may be some correlation to belief and intelligence, I personally have noted that many of the so-called "woo-woo's" are quite intelligent. Indeed, Agitprop proved herself to be both intelligent and quite superior in wit and ability to debate. Smart people who believe in strange things are generally better at producing arguments for their beliefs.

#6.) A sensational claim is only wrong, if it’s presented by a woo-woo, or someone not as educated as yourself. If a fellow debunker presents a sensational claim, pretend the idea has merrit. (Take one for the team)

I don't think that's the case at all. I recall on several occasions I was corrected on some point and I readily accepted the refutation when I noticed my error. I've also seen those that you would consider to be "debunkers" argue matters in other forums. The difference is, most see the error and either revise their position or provide stronger evidence to support the original one.

#7.) Always explain away a UFO as natural, remember you don’t have to prove anything. If you claim it’s something natural, the burden of proof is on them to prove it’s not natural. This way you can claim it’s anything.

That's why I usually ask questions rather than making a blanket statement with regard to UFOs. Like, "why can't this be..." My only beef with the UFO/ETI proponents is that they typically start with the result they want (that aliens drive UFOs) and work backward. I start with the observed phenomena and provide prosaic possibilities and note that these are more probable. In most cases, there simply isn't any data to draw on. But settling for the alien drivers of UFOs is bad science just because you can't make a conclusion.

#8.) The truth can be our enemy, if the truth supports a sensational claim. It’s then you’re job to distort or confuse the truth so as to support a more mundane explanation.

Baloney. Their is either evidence and data or there isn't.

#9.) Don’t ever offer words of support, or agreement with a woo-woo. Constantly attack, harass and confuse them. Remember how much smarter, and more important you are than a stupid woo-woo.

I think there's been plenty of cases in sciforums where skeptics have disagreed with so-called "woo-woo's" yet offered some various words of encouragement. I've done so with Starman and, just recently, Ophiolite told Btimsah he was smart and humorous. Disagreement, even adament disagreement, doesn't imply complete disdain. Not always, anyway.

#10.) Visit www.badastronomy.com and find a woo-woo to be destroyed. Search the banned list to reminisce and enjoy you’re past work. If the banned user’s list does not exist create one. Use this to compare other woo-woo’s to past ones.

Hmm. I've noticed several so-called "woo-woo's" here at sciforums that have been banned at Bad Astronomy. Hey, it's Phil's place. He can run it the way he likes.

 

[Silas]

Oh, man, I was all set to sneeringly berate Norval for having stolen someone else's work, only to find he actually gave btimsah full credit!! You can't even rely on woo-woos to act consistently any more!!

I think barehandkiller annoyed everybody because after all, it started so well. He claims to provide "evidense" and links to Stephen Greer's web page which is, after all, at first glance superficially convincing. (Greer at the least had the sense to concentrate on testimony from people who had credibility "built in", so to speak). But after a few posts from debunkers explaining why there's less to that site than meets the eye, his response was to say this:

I know this to be true, my soul tells me so. Get in touch with yourself spiritually and yours will tell you the same, read some Near Death Experiences that date back toeven near early 1900's and some of what they experience and knowledge they gather from the other side goes right along with zero point energy. And if zero point energy exists certainly alien ufo technology does.

I mean, the forum is called sciforums after all. One minute he's offering evidence, and the next it's "make your mind so open that your brains fall out!"

After that it became evident that bhk believes the last thing he read in the National Enquirer or similar sources.

 

[Silas]

Why would they lie?

Because they have a lot of spare time these days (they're ex-military), and they think this kind of thing will bring them personal fame and/or fortune.

I've not actually looked at the testimony, but I do feel that ex-US military guys are actually less likely to lie than most of the rest of the population (pace Oliver North). It seems to me much more likely that they've been fooled.

 

[VRob]

barehandkiller:

Stop believing everything you read in Nexus or UFOs Today, or on the web. Try to look at it skeptically. Keep an open mind, but ask for good, reliable evidence. See if you can honestly find any really credible evidence.

I agree that you must be skeptical of all claims in this field.

This Disclosure project thing doesn't count. But, there is plenty of evidence available.

BTW: That ABC News documentary was a complete joke too.

 

[barehandkiller]

http://s4.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2SA9XLIMCXJPC34PFZE5AL3P85
Heres some evidence of Mason Power and a ufo crashing into the twin towers.

 

[btimsah]

The video is all anecdotes.... no physical evidence.

You know, it occurs to me that Greek society once had many stories and vivid accounts of people who encountered the gods: spoke to Apollo; witnessed Hercules battle barbarians; oracles who received information at Delphi..... etc. All anecdotal.

Greeks no longer believe such silliness. I wonder why?

All we had was anecdotal evidence that the Stealth Bomber existed; Yet it did. What you were trying here is mere debunkery.

 

[SkinWalker]

It's all the evidence you have. I've been in one.

Call it what you want, but bunk is what the video is.