Mormons are a CULT!

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

hee he...just kiddin'

seriously...i am doing a search on Maroni to read about him and his ..er...musings.

 

[Lamplighter]

inspector, as I understand it, those verses are talking about there being only one God, as opposed to the many "gods" of idolatry in biblical times. So of course there is only one real God, and many idols which are false gods.

And God is the only God with whom we have to do, the only one we worship.

pumpkins, Moroni was Mormon's son in Book of Mormon times. His is the last book in the Book of Mormon. Of course he was mortal, just like us. But if you heed his promise and apply it correctly, God will reveal the truth of the Book of Mormon to you.

 

[Lamplighter]

inspector, go here to read about the LDS position regarding the Bible verses you quoted:

Questions About the Unity of God

 

[Lamplighter]

I'd just like to apologize for coming off as maybe being too intellectually snobbish in this thread. As I said, I'm not an active member of the Church (I don't attend Church meetings or activities), so please don't think of me as a typical Latter-day Saint. Believe me, they're much nicer than I am!

I also want to say that I do not speak for the Church in any official capacity. My opinions and ideas are not necessarily those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Which is why I recommend that those interested in Mormonism should research it on their own on the websites I've cited.

I can really only be of limited assistance to anyone interested in the Church. About the most useful thing I can do is point people to the correct information on the web and hope they will read it. If anyone has been offended by my attitude, please realize that I'm not a typical Mormon and I do have a pride problem sometimes. I would hope that those who are genuinely interested in Mormonism would go to the source ( http://www.lds.org is the official website, along with http://www.mormon.org for official info).

Thanks for the conversation. It strengthens you to defend your faith, and believe me, I've learned a lot just from talking about Mormonism in this thread.

Any more questions, please go to the source instead of me. Once again I'm going to try to bow out of this thread gracefully (no, I'm not "copping out," pumpkins!).

 

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

Lamp

eh...you're not being any more snobbishly intellectual than me....so, don't worry about it...


i wish you'd stick around and debate this thing some more, but, if you gotta go...just know that you can come back (EVEN TODAY ) and, put your 2 cents worth in..just like us.

i did some reading last night on Mormonism..whoa..some of the stuff....anyways... i would just like you to take note(not that you probably haven't) ..that all those thee's, thine's and thou's and instructions (from the Book of M) sound suspiciously like a take off from the bible. hmmm. hmmm. and double hummm. btw...those prophets....well...do they really have modern day prophets and is that one that's sitting in the Temple right now as we speak really divine...and, if so....what empiricism are we basing that upon?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Lamplighter
Randolfo, the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be a history of ALL the early inhabitants of the Americas. I read an article that I can't find now on the web concerning this issue. Lehi's family could not possibly have been the only early Americans, and there is evidence in the BoM that they interacted with other cultures that were already there.

Actually, that will be the downfall of the Mormon church, the fact that it is based on the so-called interaction between these missing 'jewish native americans' and between Jesus & them. Listen if these tribes had been here, they would have brought metal & other technologies to stone age peoples, set up continent-spanning empires & dominated all the other native peoples just like the Spanish, English & French did, after they brought modern technology against people that had just learned to use the bow & arrow several hundred years earlier. Check history sites if you don't believe me, about how 'stone-age' the natives were here in the Western Hemisphere. Also, working gold, is not the same as making metal weapons of iron, steel, etc...

But you're missing the point. Heed Moroni's promise and find out for yourself if the Book of Mormon is true, straight from God to your heart. Have a little faith that God is capable of revealing truth to you.

Actually, I'm not missing anything, if I were to listen to J. Smith, why shouldn't I listen to Muhammad instead? And he is a 'prophet', that's what 1.2 billion muslims say!!! They 'heed' the call of the burning in their hearts, & it isn't indigestion!!!

 

[Lamplighter]

I just keep getting drawn back in....

I keep promising myself that I'm not going to reply, no matter what. But I do feel I need to set some things straight.

pumpkins, the prophet is just an ordinary man like you or me (I still don't know what gender you are, BTW!). When he speaks as a prophet, his words may be taken as inspired. When he speaks as a man, such as expressing his own opinion, his words may be interpreted as one man's opinion.

As for the "thee's" and "thou's" in the Book of Mormon, think about it: say you're Joseph Smith and are translating a book that is to become a companion volume to the Bible. The Bible of your time is the King James Version, so naturally you translate the BoM into the language of the KJV so the two books will "mesh" and be consistent with one another. Joseph Smith used the KJV as a style guide to translate the BoM, IMHO.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lamplighter
Randolfo, the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be a history of ALL the early inhabitants of the Americas. I read an article that I can't find now on the web concerning this issue. Lehi's family could not possibly have been the only early Americans, and there is evidence in the BoM that they interacted with other cultures that were already there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Randolfo wrote:
Actually, that will be the downfall of the Mormon church, the fact that it is based on the so-called interaction between these missing 'jewish native americans' and between Jesus & them. Listen if these tribes had been here, they would have brought metal & other technologies to stone age peoples, set up continent-spanning empires & dominated all the other native peoples just like the Spanish, English & French did, after they brought modern technology against people that had just learned to use the bow & arrow several hundred years earlier. Check history sites if you don't believe me, about how 'stone-age' the natives were here in the Western Hemisphere. Also, working gold, is not the same as making metal weapons of iron, steel, etc...

Honestly, Randolfo, do you take every word I say as "gospel truth" about Mormonism? I mentioned that i had read an article that I couldn't even find now. Does this missing article, or rather, my hasty summary of it, somehow become iron-clad, official "Mormon doctrine" in your mind now? As far as I know, it was just a theory that some BYU people were talking about. The Book of Mormon doesn't explicitly mention other cultures.

Now, my knowledge of metal-working and "other technologies" is my big weak spot in terms of my knowledge of the Book of Mormon. I haven't studied the matter and really can't comment on that aspect of the BoM at all. Suffice it to say, however, that 1) only the prophet-historians (such as Mormon himself) had the knowledge of working with metal plates, AFAIK, and 2) technologies can be lost as well as developed over a long period of time. Just because Nephi knew all about metallurgy (or at least enough to make plates to write on) doesn't necessarily mean that all the Nephites and Lamanites knew this technology. And 3) the Book of Mormon mentions horrific, apocalyptic battles wherein all or most of the Nephites and Lamanites were killed, tens of thousands, in fact. So we have an entire civilization going extinct, and yet you are expecting their technology to have survived. I simply don't think that is a realistic expectation. I could be wrong, however. I don't know that much about early American civilizations beyond a cursory high school education's knowledge. You'll have to talk to someone more knowledgeable than me about this subject.

Let that be a lesson to me not to speculate on things I know very little about. The Mormon Church isn't going to have its "downfall" based on any half-baked ideas of mine!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But you're missing the point. Heed Moroni's promise and find out for yourself if the Book of Mormon is true, straight from God to your heart. Have a little faith that God is capable of revealing truth to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Actually, I'm not missing anything, if I were to listen to J. Smith, why shouldn't I listen to Muhammad instead? And he is a 'prophet', that's what 1.2 billion muslims say!!! They 'heed' the call of the burning in their hearts, & it isn't indigestion!!!

Well, you'll never know if you don't give it a try. I would suggest that you study both the Book of Mormon and the Koran, pray about each one, and see which one God endorses. Don't you think that God is able to communicate truthfulness to your heart? Is anything too hard for him to do? I should think that the creator of universes just might be able to convey truth to His children, eh? And BTW, it's not JUST a burning in the bosom that develops your testimony. It's study, meditation, sincere prayer, and faith as well.

If you're willing to put in the time and are sincerely trying to find the truth, with real intent and faith in Christ, then I promise you that He will give you an answer. But if you refuse to read the book, refuse to even give Moroni's promise a decent try, then you can never say that you know that Mormonism's claims are true or false. You'll just never know. And that would be sad.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: I just keep getting drawn back in....

Originally posted by Lamplighter


Well, you'll never know if you don't give it a try. But if you refuse to read the book, refuse to even give Moroni's promise a decent try, then you can never say that you know that Mormonism's claims are true or false. You'll just never know. And that would be sad.

You know, there’s a lot of gays that would say the same to you, about their lifestyle (‘nature’, they would say), will you try it? There are a lot of druggies too, would you try them? Muslims are calling you, "yes you Mr. Lamplighter", heed their call, let the burning desire prove 'islam is true' to you. And they have the ‘seal’ of the prophets (supposedly allah, sealed the door to prophethood after Muhammad, the last prophet for mankind).

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Lamplighter
I guess I'd better finish what I started.


Actually, Joseph Smith has nothing to do with Muhammad, and Muhammad has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I don't care what Muslims believe. That isn't the subject of this thread. And since Joseph Smith taught that Jesus was the Son of God, unlike Muhammad, this is a false analogy.

Actually, since they both came after Jesus, & claimed to be prophets of god, & changed the words or meaning of Jesus, they are 2 peas in a pod, whether you agree or not

He was talking to God the Father. Mormons do believe in the Trinity in the sense that there are three personages in the "Godhead." They just don't believe that these three personages are one-and-the-same substance.

So exactly, what does that mean? Sort of like: one is 'spirit', one is 'physical' & one is 'mind'? Or do you mean: one is "male", one is 'female', one is 'offspring'? Explain?

Perhaps because the men at Nicea were influenced greatly by Greek philosophy, while the LDS are influenced directly by God's revelation. This is not to say that none of the Niceans were inspired, but they were so steeped in neoplatonism that they actually defined God in philosophical terms rather than theistic ones. To wit, they defined God as non-material because of the neoplatonic idea that all matter is evil. God is all good, they reasoned, so He must be completely immaterial. They replaced the biblical Deity with their own version of a "philosophically-correct" god.

Actually, you made the same arguments I would have for the LDS prophets, most of their assumptions of who & what the Native Americans were was colored by their culture, the fact that mormonism evolved as J. Smith got 'inspired' tells me a lot about him & his needs, exactly how many wives did he have? And B.Young?

I'll read your links when you read mine.

I did, so? Found that some of the sources quoted were heretics: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/oneness.shtml#Godhead
1) By the way, the early Christian father, Gregory Nazianzen, wrote of the Godhead in terms much closer to LDS theology than to modern "mainstream" Christianity.

Three personages, one in unity and purpose.

What do you mean, father, mother, son? Or...?

All the faithful who receive the ordinances (baptism, endowments, and celestial marriage in the temple) and endure in faith until the end, are exalted and become joint-heirs with Christ, receiving what He receives.

What do you mean? godhood? Or...?

"All those wives"? Polygamy isn't necessary for exaltation.

You sure, early prophets thought it did?

How did God become God? I guess by being righteous and receiving all truth, rejecting all evil.

So he became 'god' ? His hebrew name implies preexistence & the Bible says before Him nothing existed, are you saying that he came from some other planet or dimensions & became 'exalted' into godhood?

The LDS Church is already restored to true Christianity. True prophet, true religion.

Wishful thinking, what would Jesus say about the LDS?

On the usage of the excessive smiley faces: I used exactly two, and this was in response to the liberal usage that pumpkins was using. Why don't you criticize him/her, Hmmmm....?

Meant it as a sign of triumph that you & the LDS church were proved right

And the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be a history of the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel." You're getting your information wrong.

Then what is it meant to be?

Uh, thanks. I have no idea how you tie in L. Ron Hubbard to BYU sending archaeolgists to Mesoamerica, or how Futurama fits into this picture, but...whatever.

That L.R. Hubbard, J. Smith & G, Roddenbery had written books that people take too seriously!!! Turn on that lamp & open your eyes

Remember, when Christianity was in its infancy, it was also a "modern concoction," at least to the Jews. So let's use early Christianity as a comparison to what you're saying. The early Christians had to prove its truths to the Jews

Actually, all its first converts were jews, until Paul got the call for us 'gentiles'. Read Acts

That the "New Testament" is the true history of the Messiah. (BTW, the Book of Mormon, as mentioned above, is not primarily a history book, nor does it claim to give a "history of the so-called 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.'")

It was true enough to get several thousand jews to believe, until the religious establishment sent the mobs

That Jesus is the true Messiah and the Apostles are "true" prophets. (Yes, they are, but you must prove this, according to your standards that you're setting for Mormonism.)

Using the Old Testament, Jesus was born, lived, died & rose again to fulfill prophecy: Isaiah 9:1-7, Isaiah 53:1-12, Psalms 22:1-31

That anything Peter and Paul did was true and biblical (including Peter's denying that he was one of the Apostles--was that a "true" concept, Hmmm...?)

Actually, Jesus said Peter would deny Him, before that night was over. What would you do in that situation 'Mr. Courage', (glad I don't speak in a Galilean accent), you?

That the early Christian church is the "true" Messiah's church.

Actually, if the early founders couldn't get it right, what hope for the ones that came after? Muhammad I hear your call!!! No, but seriously, I think God gives everybody a choice: to follow Him or not: many choices; Moses only, Buddha only, Jesus only, Muhammad only, J. Smith only, etc., etc.

That the early Christian understanding of what Biblical & religious words mean, are the true meanings of those words, according to Judaism.

Since, they were jews what do you think? See, Acts, & Peter's initial trouble accepting gentiles (Cornelius).

that what the early Christian church says can be trusted as true & Biblical in the Jews' eyes &

Actually, at 17 I left the Catholic church (St. Gertrude's in Bell Gardens, Ca), over the doctrine of the trinity, since I could not understand how 3 could be one & I apparently had wasted years of Catholic HS & catechism (several churches & schools), to explore the original (Judaism, Temple Ner Tamid in Downey, Ca), since I thought that Catholicism was too pagan (my old Air Force dog tags say "Jewish").
At 30 I came back, after years of indifference & some searching (because I still saw christian ideas in the Torah (who does God talk to at creation? What does ‘make in our image, in our likeness’ mean?) & had started to read sci-fi (which explores different understandings of reality & ‘what ifs’ ) & seriously explored JW, SDA, & evangelical Christianity, met LDS, Church Universal &Triumphant & muslim proponents at that time too, though I didn't take them seriously

that what the early Christians said can be trusted as true & Biblical to the Jews' understanding.

See above

I submit to you that you would have the same problems convincing the Jews that Jesus was the true Messiah, and that Christianity is the true religion, that the LDS have today in "proving" that they are the true religion to fundamentalists and evangelicals (and other sectarian Christians).

True. Also, 'sectarian' is a code word for 'false', I submit to you & all that the LDS is ‘sectarian’

Please furnish all of YOUR answers in scientific &/or historical proofs (such as, prove scientifically that Jesus was truly resurrected), that any layman could understand without having to learn some exotic language (like Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, hmm....?) or mathematical theory.

Actually, as the younger & the so-called 'restored' church, that falls upon you & yours, if you are the Einstein to my Newton, the proofs should be easy, but if you are the Newton to my EINSTEIN, then you do the math (you're going to have a hard time convincing any but the gullible, that the BoM is anything but a fantasy or at worst: the Anti-Christ!) See Galatians 1:6-9

DISCLAIMER: I myself do believe that Christianity (specifically, LDS Christianity) is the true religion and that Jesus WAS bodily resurrected and is the true Messiah. I present these arguments only to show you that the same stiff requirements you are making of the LDS can be applied to your own religion as well. If you can't prove to an atheist that Jesus was resurrected, why do you expect the LDS to "prove" their position using scientific &/or historical proofs? Faith is required, and always will be, before you receive the greater witness to the truth. Please don't misjudge Mormonism just because you don't have all the proof you require.

Actually, mormonism fails in its claims: the BoM can not be true on any historical level, but as a novel, well that's something else! that J. Smith was prophet, the Bible states that if you make one mistake in prophecy, you are not a prophet: check out "Pearl of Great Price" origins, by entering "joseph smith" AND "book of the dead". Here’s just one entry: http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/examfac2.htm
For Christianity to be proved true beyond the shadow of the doubt, would require waiting
for the ‘End of Time’, were every eye shall see Him. Revelation 1:1-8 . And you’re right Lamplighter, these are faith-based assumptions, on all our parts.

Peace.

PBUY (peace be upon you)

 

[Lamplighter]

You have been given the key, now open the door

You know what, Randolfo? If you've read this whole thread, you've probably come across the following statements by me (to paraphrase):

1) Mormons are not supposed to argue or debate their religion, according to prophetic counsel;

and

2) Missionaries (and members) are supposed to just share our message with those who will listen, and if they are argumentative, unaccepting of the message, etc., we're just to move on.

According to these guidelines, I've shared the message with you, I've given you Moroni's promise (Moroni 10:4, Book of Mormon), and I've born my testimony to you that I know that the Church is true and that Jesus stands at its head. I've done all these things, yet you still refuse to listen or try Moroni's promise. So I've done my part. If you refuse to apply the promise, there is nothing else I can do for you. I wish you well, but I'm not going to debate with you about Mormonism. Is this a "cop-out"? You can call it so if you desire, but I'm just following prophetic instructions.

You have been given the key. If you refuse to try it in the lock, that's up to you. You can complain, dismiss, and generally pooh-pooh the notion that God will tell you the truth in your heart, but you can never disprove Mormonism's strongest evidence unless you try, with real intent, to follow the conditions of Moroni's promise.

Nuff said.

Peace.

 

[Lamplighter]

Randolfo, look at it this way.

You are in a fancy restaurant and have just ordered a delicious steak-and-potatoes dinner. The waiter brings it to you, and tells you that the steak is particularly delicious today. You take one look at the plate and say, "The parsley isn't placed correctly." The waiter assures you that it doesn't really matter how the parsley is placed, but you must try the steak. You take another look at the plate and say, "My potato isn't perfectly round. Take it back!" The waiter says, "I assure you, sir, the potato is very delicious as well. Both the steak and potato are in excellent condition and are delicious."

You look at the plate again and say, "I refuse to believe that the steak tastes good because the plate is white. I don't like white plates. Take it back and bring me a blue plate, please. The steak and potato cannot taste good because they are on the wrong color plate."

The waiter assures you that the steak and potato are the most delicious he will ever taste. You keep finding things wrong with the peripherals and refuse to even try the steak or potato. The fork is slightly bent. The salad is too cold. The water doesn't have ice in it and isn't cold enough.

Finally, you get tired of complaining about the little things that bother you and you actually try the steak. It is just as the waiter promised it would be: delicious and filling! You wonder why in the world you didn't try it sooner.

Do you see where I'm going here?

Peace.

 

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

Mormons are not supposed to argue or debate their religion, according to prophetic counsel;

*sniggers* prophetic counsel...


seems to me they have something to hide if they refuse to debate and defend their beliefs..

 

[Lamplighter]

Debate vs. Defend

Debate, no. Defend, yes, definitely.

There are organizations such as FARMS and FAIR that devote themselves entirely to the defense of the faith. Apologetics is hardly a dead art among Mormons. And of course some do debate religion in spite of the advice not to.

Debate, on the other hand, implies that we must prove the scientifically unprovable: faith and spirituality, and that we must give the other side equal time to make its case. We don't do that. We make assertions, we bear witness to the truthfulness of the gospel, but we don't try to scientifically prove our faith. And you won't see anti-Mormons being given "equal time" in Sunday School to teach their doctrines. We are one-sided and positive in matters of faith, and we feel this is a good thing.

Peace.

 

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

i want these questions answered. ...and, i want someone/representative in the mormon church to give me an answer that is not double-talk.

!) Do only Mormons go to Heaven?

2) Are Mormons prejudiced against Blacks?


7) Do Mormons believe that Blacks are the representatives of Satan?

8) Why does the Book of Mormon teach that people with dark skin are cursed by God?

9) Do Latter-day Saints believe that black is a disadvantage?


10) Why did Brigham Young teach that interracial marriage was worthy of death on the spot?


11) In the temple, do you teach that husbands get to decide if their wives will be resurrected and enter the celestial kingdom? Isn't this just a pschological ploy to keep your women in line?


12) If the Book of Morman is true, why is it that when an Indian becomes a Morman why doesnt he turn white? ( 2 Nephi 30:6 - prior to 1981 revision)



btw...there were answers to these questions...but, IMHO they were all a bunch of double-talk. the Momon's response to them was more an attempt to cover up the fact that yes...they are indeed racist, and biggoted..but, let's not got there.

 

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

I mean, one day, Joseph Smith was sitting, talking to God ...and, God basically tells him blacks are not worthy of the preisthood...infact, not worthy at all and are delegates/representatives of Satan. well...gosh.

then, God changes his tune years later as he's talking/chatting to one of the more recent prophets in SaltLakeCity...and, guess what?? God tells him that..now it's ok to let a black man into the church and preisthood.

now...what is up with THAT??!! do you really think God said all that in regards to blacks? and, if so...what the heck kinda prejudiced God is that??

 

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

Eureka!! i figured it out!!! the Mormon's are twisting, turning and manipulating God into the God they want HIM to be ..not wanting to accept him for the God He actually is...

 

[Lamplighter]

I'd like to know why "orthodox" Christians had slaves in the past. I'd also like to hear the justification for them believing that blacks don't have souls. And while you're at it, please explain segregation of churches and schools in the past, and all of this by "respectable" Christian Americans.

All "orthodox" Christians today must be bigots because their ancestors were.

The truth is, people grow up within the context of their cultural beliefs and practices. And if past Church leaders/members had bigoted attitudes because they were raised in a bigoted culture with bigoted values, they were in good company. It's silly to say that ONLY the Mormons had bigoted attitudes, as opposed to other Christians. Consistently, the Mormons were LESS bigoted than their sectarian Christian counterparts. Usually MUCH LESS.

And God didn't suddenly "change His mind" regarding blacks holding the Priesthood. The time came for the lifting of the priesthood ban, so it was lifted.

 

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

oh..so, God decided to lift a ban against blacks, huh?? sounds more to me like something a man woulda done ..not God. i mean, i somehow just can't see God being prejudiced. you know.

 

[Lamplighter]

And blacks were ALWAYS allowed membership in the Church, BTW.

Is withholding the Priesthood from certain groups of people unprecedented in the Bible? If so, please explain why only the Levites were allowed to hold the Priesthood in Moses' day. Why, God must be a bigot to not have let ALL the Israelites hold the Priesthood. Once again, .

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Lamplighter
Randolfo, look at it this way.

You are in a fancy restaurant and have just ordered a delicious steak-and-potatoes dinner. The waiter brings it to you, and tells you that the steak is particularly delicious today. You take one look at the plate and say, "The parsley isn't placed correctly." The waiter assures you that it doesn't really matter how the parsley is placed, but you must try the steak. You take another look at the plate and say, "My potato isn't perfectly round. Take it back!" The waiter says, "I assure you, sir, the potato is very delicious as well. Both the steak and potato are in excellent condition and are delicious."

You look at the plate again and say, "I refuse to believe that the steak tastes good because the plate is white. I don't like white plates. Take it back and bring me a blue plate, please. The steak and potato cannot taste good because they are on the wrong color plate."

The waiter assures you that the steak and potato are the most delicious he will ever taste. You keep finding things wrong with the peripherals and refuse to even try the steak or potato. The fork is slightly bent. The salad is too cold. The water doesn't have ice in it and isn't cold enough.

Finally, you get tired of complaining about the little things that bother you and you actually try the steak. It is just as the waiter promised it would be: delicious and filling! You wonder why in the world you didn't try it sooner.

Do you see where I'm going here?

Peace.

Lamp, you are so hilarious!!!, but if I ate at your restaurant, I would get indigestion first & listeria poisoning afterward. There is no other way to God, Jesus is, "the Way, the Truth & the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through" Him. John 14:6

Oh, BTW, in real life that steak & potatoes can be made many ways, depends on the culture, if it was cooked Thai style, would it satisfy the "steak & potatoes" man in you?