pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
that is a good point, my friend.
Mormons are a CULT!
- Thread starter pumpkinsaren'torange
- Start date
that is a good point, my friend.
L
Lamplighter
Guest
I guess I'd better finish what I started.
Randolfo wrote:
Yes, they are. The Mormons both want to be Christian and are Christian.
Actually, Joseph Smith has nothing to do with Muhammad, and Muhammad has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I don't care what Muslims believe. That isn't the subject of this thread. And since Joseph Smith taught that Jesus was the Son of God, unlike Muhammad, this is a false analogy.
I just wanted to respond to pumpkins here and say that if he/she wants to wear a symbol of Christ's sacrifice around his/her neck, that's fine with the LDS. The LDS choose not to worship the dying Christ, but rather the LIVING Christ, so they feel that the cross is not an appropriate symbol. They aren't offended by it--they just don't use it.
He was talking to God the Father. Mormons do believe in the Trinity in the sense that there are three personages in the "Godhead." They just don't believe that these three personages are one-and-the-same substance.
I don't have a clue what you're talking about here. Could you be more specific?
Perhaps because the men at Nicea were influenced greatly by Greek philosophy, while the LDS are influenced directly by God's revelation. This is not to say that none of the Niceans were inspired, but they were so steeped in neoplatonism that they actually defined God in philosophical terms rather than theistic ones. To wit, they defined God as non-material because of the neoplatonic idea that all matter is evil. God is all good, they reasoned, so He must be completely immaterial. They replaced the biblical Deity with their own version of a "philosophically-correct" god.
I'll read your links when you read mine.
Three personages, one in unity and purpose.
Yep.
I have no idea. Mormonism doesn't even speculate on that question.
All the faithful who receive the ordinances (baptism, endowments, and celestial marriage in the temple) and endure in faith until the end, are exalted and become joint-heirs with Christ, receiving what He receives.
"All those wives"? Polygamy isn't necessary for exaltation.
How did God become God? I guess by being righteous and receiving all truth, rejecting all evil.
The LDS Church is already restored to true Christianity. True prophet, true religion.
-----
On the usage of the excessive smiley faces: I used exactly two, and this was in response to the liberal usage that pumpkins was using. Why don't you criticize him/her, Hmmmm....?
And the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be a history of the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel." You're getting your information wrong.
Uh, thanks. I have no idea how you tie in L. Ron Hubbard to BYU sending archaeolgists to Mesoamerica, or how Futurama fits into this picture, but...whatever.
---
Remember, when Christianity was in its infancy, it was also a "modern concoction," at least to the Jews. So let's use early Christianity as a comparison to what you're saying. The early Christians had to prove its truths to the Jews:
1) That the "New Testament" is the true history of the Messiah. (BTW, the Book of Mormon, as mentioned above, is not primarily a history book, nor does it claim to give a "history of the so-called 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.'")
2) That Jesus is the true Messiah and the Apostles are "true" prophets. (Yes, they are, but you must prove this, according to your standards that you're setting for Mormonism.)
3) That anything Peter and Paul did was true and biblical (including Peter's denying that he was one of the Apostles--was that a "true" concept, Hmmm...?)
4) That the early Christian church is the "true" Messiah's church.
5) That the early Christian understanding of what Biblical & religious words mean, are the true meanings of those words, according to Judaism.
6) that what the early Christian church says can be trusted as true & Biblical in the Jews' eyes &
7) that what the early Christians said can be trusted as true & Biblical to the Jews' understanding.
I submit to you that you would have the same problems convincing the Jews that Jesus was the true Messiah, and that Christianity is the true religion, that the LDS have today in "proving" that they are the true religion to fundamentalists and evangelicals (and other sectarian Christians).
Please furnish all of YOUR answers in scientific &/or historical proofs (such as, prove scientifically that Jesus was truly resurrected), that any layman could understand without having to learn some exotic language (like Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, hmm....?) or mathematical theory.
DISCLAIMER: I myself do believe that Christianity (specifically, LDS Christianity) is the true religion and that Jesus WAS bodily resurrected and is the true Messiah. I present these arguments only to show you that the same stiff requirements you are making of the LDS can be applied to your own religion as well. If you can't prove to an atheist that Jesus was resurrected, why do you expect the LDS to "prove" their position using scientific &/or historical proofs? Faith is required, and always will be, before you receive the greater witness to the truth. Please don't misjudge Mormonism just because you don't have all the proof you require.
Peace.
Randolfo wrote:
Yes, they are. The Mormons both want to be Christian and are Christian.
Actually, Joseph Smith has nothing to do with Muhammad, and Muhammad has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I don't care what Muslims believe. That isn't the subject of this thread. And since Joseph Smith taught that Jesus was the Son of God, unlike Muhammad, this is a false analogy.
I just wanted to respond to pumpkins here and say that if he/she wants to wear a symbol of Christ's sacrifice around his/her neck, that's fine with the LDS. The LDS choose not to worship the dying Christ, but rather the LIVING Christ, so they feel that the cross is not an appropriate symbol. They aren't offended by it--they just don't use it.
He was talking to God the Father. Mormons do believe in the Trinity in the sense that there are three personages in the "Godhead." They just don't believe that these three personages are one-and-the-same substance.
I don't have a clue what you're talking about here. Could you be more specific?
Perhaps because the men at Nicea were influenced greatly by Greek philosophy, while the LDS are influenced directly by God's revelation. This is not to say that none of the Niceans were inspired, but they were so steeped in neoplatonism that they actually defined God in philosophical terms rather than theistic ones. To wit, they defined God as non-material because of the neoplatonic idea that all matter is evil. God is all good, they reasoned, so He must be completely immaterial. They replaced the biblical Deity with their own version of a "philosophically-correct" god.
I'll read your links when you read mine.
Three personages, one in unity and purpose.
Yep.
I have no idea. Mormonism doesn't even speculate on that question.
All the faithful who receive the ordinances (baptism, endowments, and celestial marriage in the temple) and endure in faith until the end, are exalted and become joint-heirs with Christ, receiving what He receives.
"All those wives"? Polygamy isn't necessary for exaltation.
How did God become God? I guess by being righteous and receiving all truth, rejecting all evil.
The LDS Church is already restored to true Christianity. True prophet, true religion.
-----
On the usage of the excessive smiley faces: I used exactly two, and this was in response to the liberal usage that pumpkins was using. Why don't you criticize him/her, Hmmmm....?
And the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be a history of the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel." You're getting your information wrong.
Uh, thanks. I have no idea how you tie in L. Ron Hubbard to BYU sending archaeolgists to Mesoamerica, or how Futurama fits into this picture, but...whatever.
---
Remember, when Christianity was in its infancy, it was also a "modern concoction," at least to the Jews. So let's use early Christianity as a comparison to what you're saying. The early Christians had to prove its truths to the Jews:
1) That the "New Testament" is the true history of the Messiah. (BTW, the Book of Mormon, as mentioned above, is not primarily a history book, nor does it claim to give a "history of the so-called 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.'")
2) That Jesus is the true Messiah and the Apostles are "true" prophets. (Yes, they are, but you must prove this, according to your standards that you're setting for Mormonism.)
3) That anything Peter and Paul did was true and biblical (including Peter's denying that he was one of the Apostles--was that a "true" concept, Hmmm...?)
4) That the early Christian church is the "true" Messiah's church.
5) That the early Christian understanding of what Biblical & religious words mean, are the true meanings of those words, according to Judaism.
6) that what the early Christian church says can be trusted as true & Biblical in the Jews' eyes &
7) that what the early Christians said can be trusted as true & Biblical to the Jews' understanding.
I submit to you that you would have the same problems convincing the Jews that Jesus was the true Messiah, and that Christianity is the true religion, that the LDS have today in "proving" that they are the true religion to fundamentalists and evangelicals (and other sectarian Christians).
Please furnish all of YOUR answers in scientific &/or historical proofs (such as, prove scientifically that Jesus was truly resurrected), that any layman could understand without having to learn some exotic language (like Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, hmm....?) or mathematical theory.
DISCLAIMER: I myself do believe that Christianity (specifically, LDS Christianity) is the true religion and that Jesus WAS bodily resurrected and is the true Messiah. I present these arguments only to show you that the same stiff requirements you are making of the LDS can be applied to your own religion as well. If you can't prove to an atheist that Jesus was resurrected, why do you expect the LDS to "prove" their position using scientific &/or historical proofs? Faith is required, and always will be, before you receive the greater witness to the truth. Please don't misjudge Mormonism just because you don't have all the proof you require.
Peace.
Don't you ever have doubts? If you were educated in an islamic environment wouldn't things be different? Why not doubt? How many religions are out there? Why do you think your belief is better than others? Is mormonism really misjudged? Aren't you tired of seeing the world through the eyes of Joseph Smith? Why not use your own eyes?
L
Lamplighter
Guest
Sure, I've had doubts, especially as a child and teenager. Who hasn't?
Yes, I think I would probably be a moslem if I had been born into an Islamic environment. So what? Just because you're born into a specific religion, that doesn't say anything about the veracity of that religion. It merely gives you a greater probability of being a member of that religion, true or false. In other words, if I was born a capitalist, would that make capitalism automatically incorrect? SOMEONE has to be born into the true religion (if you believe there is such a thing, which is a whole nuther debate).
I don't necessarily think my belief is better than others'. But I do think that my religion is true. So shoot me! Sure, there are many religions out there, and most if not all of them have SOME degree of truth to them. Mormonism isn't the ONLY true religion; it's just the MOST TRUE religion, and it is the only religion upon which God has officially bestowed His authority, the Priesthood.
Hold on a minute. "Honey, where did you put Joseph Smith's eyes? I seem to have misplaced them."
"Last I saw of 'em, they were on the table."
"If that darn dog got ahold of them again, why, I'll..."
Seriously, though, I actually do think for myself and look at things through my own eyes. That's my right and privilege, and the Church encourages independent thought in its members. Just because I agree with Joseph Smith's views doesn't make me a mindless automaton. Agreement doesn't equal blind obedience. At least, not in my book.
L
Lamplighter
Guest
Sango sends his regards, your Holiness.
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
thanks for responding..
i must collect my thoughts....i will get back to this in a bit. (i just got off work, and my brain feels ..well...crispy...kinda fried, actually...)
p.s. hi Randolpho
i must collect my thoughts....i will get back to this in a bit. (i just got off work, and my brain feels ..well...crispy...kinda fried, actually...)
p.s. hi Randolpho
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
Good response, let me have time to write mine, probably tomorrow. I like the FAITH & scientific part, touche!!
L
Lamplighter
Guest
Randolfo, pumpkinsaren'torange, et al,, I'm gonna make this really easy for you. If you want to know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, simply do this:
Go here to get a free copy of the Book of Mormon.
Then turn to page 529 and read Moroni 10:4. Following those instructions, you can't go wrong. If you follow them correctly you will gain a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true.
Logically, it follows that if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then the Church he founded is the true church. So you see, everything hinges on whether or not the Book of Mormon is true. If you have a testimony of it's truthfulness, you will know in your heart that the LDS Church is true.
And that's all I'm going to say. This is the heart of Mormonism. We could argue back and forth, quote Bible verses at each other all day, and neither of us would convince the other of our position.
Let God tell you whether it's true or not. He will, if you listen.
Peace.
Go here to get a free copy of the Book of Mormon.
Then turn to page 529 and read Moroni 10:4. Following those instructions, you can't go wrong. If you follow them correctly you will gain a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true.
Logically, it follows that if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then the Church he founded is the true church. So you see, everything hinges on whether or not the Book of Mormon is true. If you have a testimony of it's truthfulness, you will know in your heart that the LDS Church is true.
And that's all I'm going to say. This is the heart of Mormonism. We could argue back and forth, quote Bible verses at each other all day, and neither of us would convince the other of our position.
Let God tell you whether it's true or not. He will, if you listen.
Peace.
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
Already have a copy thanks, it's a good fantasy novel
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
unfortunately Lamplighter, i could just as easily throw the forthcoming quip out: (and, it has been used many times to refute the validity of the Holy Bible as well) ...
the quip: that book was written by a mere human.
and, furthermore ..by a human who deemed/self-annointed/appointed himself a prophet. just so you know.
the quip: that book was written by a mere human.
and, furthermore ..by a human who deemed/self-annointed/appointed himself a prophet. just so you know.
L
Lamplighter
Guest
Well, pumpkins, you'll never know unless you apply "Moroni's promise" found in Moroni 10:4, the Book of Mormon. No one can refute Mormonism's basic claim to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon without applying Moroni's promise, with real intent.
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
why is Maroni a man whose promise is should even belive? what makes him so??
L
Lamplighter
Guest
Moroni was a prophet in ancient America. He invites all who read the Book of Mormon to ask God if it is true or not, with real intent and faith. Notice that it's not Moroni who is giving you a testimony. He's just pointing the way for you to find out for yourself, from the very source (God) whether the Book of Mormon is true or not. Try it!
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
The following is a copy of the email response that The Smithsonian Institution sent me last year, regarding what a Mormon had stated, namely that the Book of Mormon was used as a guide for new world archeology. Just sharing this, but check the link out.
The date at the bottom may indicate a form letter response from April Fool's Day in 1998?
Last edited by a moderator:
L
Lamplighter
Guest
Randolfo, the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to be a history of ALL the early inhabitants of the Americas. I read an article that I can't find now on the web concerning this issue. Lehi's family could not possibly have been the only early Americans, and there is evidence in the BoM that they interacted with other cultures that were already there.
But you're missing the point. Heed Moroni's promise and find out for yourself if the Book of Mormon is true, straight from God to your heart. Have a little faith that God is capable of revealing truth to you.
But you're missing the point. Heed Moroni's promise and find out for yourself if the Book of Mormon is true, straight from God to your heart. Have a little faith that God is capable of revealing truth to you.
The Holy Bible tells us that there is only ONE God.
for example,
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 43:10
and many, many other places.........
The mormon church tells us that there are MANY gods.
Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.
for example,
God the Father is a god.
Jesus Christ is a god.
Holy Spririt is a god.
Goddess Mother is a god.
and the list goes on and on.................
Now, who am I to believe? The word of Jesus, or the word of man?
><>
for example,
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 43:10
and many, many other places.........
The mormon church tells us that there are MANY gods.
Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.
for example,
God the Father is a god.
Jesus Christ is a god.
Holy Spririt is a god.
Goddess Mother is a god.
and the list goes on and on.................
Now, who am I to believe? The word of Jesus, or the word of man?
><>
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
Inspector
i know how some cynics will want to answer that question..
and, LampLighter...that macaroni guy is JUST a guy... just like you. you know...he is NOT divine... who's to say where his inspiration came from...
i know how some cynics will want to answer that question..
and, LampLighter...that macaroni guy is JUST a guy... just like you. you know...he is NOT divine... who's to say where his inspiration came from...
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member