Mormons are a CULT!

pumpkinsaren'torange, I'm not "copping out" when I decline arguing with you. But just so you can see the fallacies of your arguments, let's discuss them one at a time. I will talk about one, and ONLY one, topic per day in this thread.

Let's start with this issue:

quote: I wrote:
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Yes, Mormons DO want to be known as Christians and always have been Christians. This is not a recent development. The Church has been a Christian religion since April 6, 1830, when it was first organized by Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ."
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Then you wrote:

No, that is not true, this IS just a recent development.
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Okay, so the issue is, have the Mormons always been a Christian religion? The answer is quite definitely "yes!" for honest historians. The following proofs are submitted:

*** The name of the LDS Church is officially "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Now let's look a little closer at that name. "The Church" : self-explanatory: the religious organization that Joseph Smith organized on April 6, 1830 was a "Church." Now, if you look very, very closely at the fine print, you may see the following: "of Jesus Christ". So far we have a Church that is "of" Jesus Christ. In other words, a Christian Church. Are you with me so far? I don't think I need to analyze the Church's name any further. Do you agree that 1830 was not a very recent time? If so, and if the Church at least CLAIMED to be Christian back in 1830, how can you say that the Church's claim to Christianity is a "recent development"? You may disagree that the Church is, in fact, Christian, but you cannot logically say that it hasn't CLAIMED to be Christian from the very beginning.

*** In the Book of Mormon, the first English edition of which was published in 1830 also, we read the following on the first page: "[The Book of Mormon's purpose is to convince] the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations".

So here we have both a Christian name for the Church AND a declaration by the sacred scripture of this Church that its very purpose is to convince people of Christ's divinity and Godhood.

I think it's clear by now to even the densest mind that the Church has ALWAYS claimed to be a Christian religion. It doesn't matter if you don't agree that it is a Christian religion. That's not the issue. You are claiming that the Church has only RECENTLY claimed to be Christian, while I have shown pretty conclusively that the Church has claimed to be Christian since its very organization in 1830.

I'll address your next point tomorrow.

Peace.
 
I have had a change of heart about my posting to this thread. I don't believe I'm going to change anyone's mind by being stuffy and arrogant about my beliefs. Obviously I disagree strongly with pumpkinsaren'torange's statements about Mormonism. However, I have decided that I am not going to argue with him/her anymore. I don't feel that the spirit of argument was ever a way to get people to come to Christ. So I am bowing out of this thread.

I'd like to leave a couple of links before I go, however, for those who are honest in heart and want to know the truth about Mormonism. The first link is to an online book called "Are Mormons Christians?" by Stephen E. Robinson, a BYU professor. The second link is to the "All About Mormons" website, where you can research Mormonism on your own. Here they are:

Are Mormons Christians?

All About Mormons

And of course, the Official Site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

With that, I leave this message board. I hope that even if I have only reached one person or influenced them to research and study Mormonism, it will have been worth it. I apologize for my arrogance, but I do bear testimony that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church upon the face of the earth today, and that Jesus is the Christ. People may be offended or disagree with this testimony, but it can never be taken away from me. God wrote it in my heart.

God bless, and take care.
 
..i decline arguing with you..
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and...


However, I have decided that I am not going to argue with him/her anymore
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see? that's part of your (and all of ours' problems) ...you don't perceive things the way i do and vice-versa...

i don't agree with you on your above statements...i wouldn't call our bantering discussions "arguing"...i consider it debating. to me the word "arguing" has many more negative connotations associated/attached with with it. arguing is like yelling and sceaming back and forth at each other without each other even hearing what the other one might actually be trying to say. very close minded. but, i don't think that our "discussion" is an argument...we aren't yelling back and forth (i least i don't think we are) and, we are "sort of" listening to what each other is attempting to say.


confucious say: he who posts the most links on a subject ususally has the most to defend.


i wonder why.
:D
 
Um....no.

Not even, pumpkins. You haven't understood me at all if you think that you "scared another Mormon off." The prophets of Mormonism have instructed members NOT to argue or debate our religion. Yep, we're one-sided. We do not debate whether or not our religion is true (or at least, we're not supposed to). Missionaries are instructed to simply teach whoever will listen to them. If someone doesn't want to hear the word or they are argumentative, trying to trap people in their words, etc., they're just instructed to move on. There are too many people who need to hear our message to waste time arguing with those who won't listen to it anyway.

So when I say I will not argue (or debate) with you, I'm simply following prophetic instructions. You didn't "scare me off," LOL.

Faith is the ultimate proof of our beliefs, and as you know, faith cannot be proven or disproven. Only God can prove the truth within our hearts.

That is why I'm withdrawing from the debate. You haven't scared me a bit, mi amigo.

Now, if you want to actually learn about Mormonism, the missionaries are in the phone book under "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Or visit a local LDS church on Sunday--visitors are always welcome.
 
Wow what an interesting thread.

I have a question. The main arguments against the LDS, (about which I have very little knowledge incidently), being a religion seem to be:

They have revised their policy regarding blacks in the priesthoodand they are not mainstream Christians and may in fact not be Christians at all.

Why do these make them a cult rather than a religion?

The Church of England, which I was brought up in, very recently allowed women to be ordained, but is not regarded as a cult and there are many non-Christian religions.
 
Cults

A religion is what I belong to.
a cult is what you belong to.

The problems with defining Mormons as a cult are:

1. The word "cult" has several definitions. Under one definition, ALL religions are cults, since they are "systems of worship." Under another use of the term, which seems to be leveled at Mormonism a lot, a cult is simply "a religion I don't like." And of course there is the definition of "cult" that inspires visions of human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mind-controlling, mad leaders, and complete brainwashing. This is often the definition that anti-Mormons would like people to think about Mormonism. Unfortunately, that definition is silly, especially if you've had any real experience with the LDS Church (which IS Christian, regardless of the nay-sayers' statements to the contrary).

2. Any definition of "cult" that would apply to Mormonism usually also applies to early Christianity and most other religions in their infancy.

I don't know how pumpkinsaren'torange defines the word "cult," but I just bet it's the "Mormonism is a religion I don't like" version of the term. This definition usually tells us more about the accuser than the religion that is being accused.

For more info about the fallacies of calling the LDS Church a "cult," please see the "Are Mormons Christian?" online book by Stephen E. Robinson link that I provided above. Once you're there, click on the "Exclusion by Name-calling" chapter.

Peace.
 
well, ya see....i've thought long and hard about this ...and, i do believe my dislike for the mormon religion stems from the fact that they are hanging around like spiders (good analogy here, Pumpkins:D) waiting to capture their unsuspecting prey.
in otherwords, it seems to me like the person who has not been raised in a religious home of some sorts, nor has any inkling of where to go for answers when he finally starts exhibiting/ expressing an interest in the Church, AND, has finally decided to give the Church a chance AND starts asking questions about God and the Bible and so forth...well, if that ususpecting soul even begins to question a Mormon, the Mormon will twist and turn and manipulate that poor person until they have no choice but to give into the brainwashing that the mormons are so adept at. but, that's only if a Mormon gets to them first. let's hope a "regular" christian attends to their spiritual needs first. hope, hope, hope.
yeah, i do have a bit of resentment built up towards the Mormon church, but, to me it is a righteous resentment, and, it's not only my own behalf that i hold that resentment.. but, rather, on the behalf of the countless lost souls who unwittingly became dupped into the mormon church. Mormons are purposefully deceiving the novice who comes innocently seeking answers to their questions of Christ and faith. but, the mormons will have to account for their trasgressions on that matter on the Final Day...aka Judgement day. enough said. enough sad.
 
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Pumpkins, did you know that Mormons also eat good Christian babies after stealing them out of their cribs? It's just awful. :rolleyes:
 
Mormonism was created by a man who didn't want to cheat is wife no more. So, to wash out is sins he made all good to the eyes of god, the dirty bastard.
 
You just helped fulfill a prophecy about Joseph Smith: that his name would be both good and evil spoken of among all nations and peoples. :D

You said the evil. Now let me say the good: Joseph Smith was the best blood of the 19th Century, and he has done more for the salvation of mankind than any other person who has ever lived except for Jesus Christ Himself.

Sorry, that "proverbial nail" you're hitting couldn't be further from the truth.
 
Originally posted by Lamplighter
You just helped fulfill a prophecy about Joseph Smith: that his name would be both good and evil spoken of among all nations and peoples. :D

You said the evil. Now let me say the good: Joseph Smith was the best blood of the 19th Century, and he has done more for the salvation of mankind than any other person who has ever lived except for Jesus Christ Himself.

Sorry, that "proverbial nail" you're hitting couldn't be further from the truth.
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I'm also a prophet and I'm going to create an anti-mormon religion. My prophecy is this: all mormons will say that axonio98 is satan. All anti-mormons will say that axonio98 is the new maome. :cool:

I don't no what good Joseph Smith did. But i bet Louis Pasteur can beat him any time
 
Originally posted by Lamplighter
Several short points:

Yes, Mormons DO want to be known as Christians and always have been Christians. This is not a recent development. The Church has been a Christian religion since April 6, 1830, when it was first organized by Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

No, Mormons DO NOT want to be known as "mainstream" Christians, according to the current definition of the word. Mormons believe that the Church is a RESTORATION of true Christianity, not merely a reformation.
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Wanting to be Christian and ‘being’ Christians are two different things. By the way, muslims claim that Jesus was a ‘muslim’ & followed islam, and that Muhammad was merely restoring the ‘true’ religion of god. WOW!! two prophets!!! Muhammad, Joseph.....Joseph, Muhammad. Who should we believe? Hmmm…???



The Cross: they aren't really "offended" by it; they just don't feel that it is an appropriate symbol of the LIVING Christ. If Jesus had been killed by a gun, would you hang a tiny gun around your neck to symbolize your faith?
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Why not? The NRA does!!!


The Triune God: The so-called "3-in-1 Trinity" is not a biblical doctrine. It came with the "creeds" when uninspired men decided that they were going to modify biblical doctrine to fit their own philosophies.
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That’s a matter of opinion, so who do you think Jesus was talking to, when he was praying?” When reading Revelation, what do you think is happening there? Who are the major “players” there? Also, why would those men at Nicea be so uninspired, but those LDS guys can be so ‘inspired’? Hmmmm…???

See this old Sciforum link below: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=5647&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Is Jesus considered as "God" in Mormonism? Yes. As a member of the Godhead, He is "God the Son," one of the three personages who constitute the Godhead (the other two being God the Father and God the Holy Ghost). Your belief that Mormons don't believe that Jesus is INDEED God is false. They do.
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Just exactly what is a 'godhead'? Do you mean ‘trinity’ or three gods? Also, is your explanation in the Bible? By the way, exactly how many gods are there in the universe? Is it still true that each good mormon gets to be god of their little ‘earth’? What about all those wives to get those spirit beings populating their new planet? Tell us, exactly how did this ‘godhead’ become our planet’s ‘god’? By the way, “How does a restoration work?” Can we help restore the LDS church to true Christianity, like the World Wide Church of God? Or will they stay like Islam; false prophet, false ‘true’ religion? Hmmm.....???
 
Randolfo, I've given several sites where you can research Mormonism on your own, especially the "All About Mormons" website. Please refer to that site for your questions about the Church. I'm done with this thread.

Contact the missionaries for more information.

Peace.
 
Originally posted by Lamplighter
Randolfo, I've given several sites where you can research Mormonism on your own, especially the "All About Mormons" website. Please refer to that site for your questions about the Church. I'm done with this thread.

Contact the missionaries for more information.

Peace.
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No thanks, I regard Mormonism as one of the first fruits of a young novelist, namely Joseph Smith, who wrote a fantasy called "The Book of Mormon", which he turned into a religion. Not bad, to have over 10 million people live their lives as if it were true history. By the way, when non-mormon archeologists find evidence of these so-called 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel" here in the Western Hemisphere, make sure you post it for us to see (with plenty of smiley faces to remind us how very wrong we were). This is why BYU sends teams to Mesoamerica, trying to prove that these so-called lost tribes (the Lamanites and Nephites, the Jaredites), influenced the Olmec, Mayas etc. Seems to me, that L. Ron Hubbard did the same thing years later with a sci-fi bent, then forming this new religion, (I think they have other planetary gods to, sending their spawn to little ol' earth). I hear the C of S uses some from of galvanometer, an early scientific instrument that measures electrical charges, to clear peoples' souls or something. Oh, and if "Futurama" is to be believed, Gene Roddenberry, who also wrote a little bit, will have started a cult called "Trek", were people will believe in strange and exciting things, wear funny clothes, make-up, learn exotic languages and customs, etc..
Live long and prosper.
 
damned, Randolpho!!!!


I think i love you...!!!!



I love your brain...i want to pick it. I covet your intelligence... *steals it*

thanks for stating (so eloquently and coherently) what i have been trying to (but failing at) put across here. :)
 
Originally posted by pumpkinsaren'torange
damned, Randolpho!!!!

I think i love you...!!!!
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Thanks, I think

I love your brain...i want to pick it. I covet your intelligence... *steals it*
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Thanks, but you'd better hurry, old age is fast taking any excess

thanks for stating (so eloquently and coherently) what i have been trying to (but failing at) put across here. :)
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Actually, you did a good job, maybe a little too hard-edged for Lamplighter (to accept or even to listen to, "Hey, are you still with us Lamplighter?").

Remember, that as a modern concoction, the LDS has to prove its so-called "truths" to the outside world;
1) that the "Book of Mormon" is the true history of the so-called "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", the early inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere, & Jesus’ mission here
2) that Joseph Smith & his successors are 'true' prophets
3) that anything Joseph Smith did or said, was true & Biblical
4) that the LDS church is a "true" Christian church
5) that the LDS understanding of what Biblical & religious words mean, are the true meanings of those words
6) that what the LDS church says can be trusted as true & Biblical &
7) that what LDS members say can be trusted as true & Biblical

For these questions, all the answers should be evident in scientific &/or historical proofs, that any layman could understand without having to learn some exotic language or mathematical theory.
 
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