Well it isn't nice to decieve and lie to folks.
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- Thread starter Yazata
- Start date
Well it isn't nice to decieve and lie to folks.
Youreyes,
We aren't trying to mob you that's where you wrong. The problem is that you've got this position in regards to how you see the west, I don't know where you got that, Perhaps it was media, perhaps it was parents, perhaps you gamed with some people on COD and they grieved you... I don't know.
The reality is that I'm sure I have no argument with most average Russians, I don't hate Russians, if anything sometimes I don't understand Russians, that's what most westerners suffer from.. not understanding.
The west doesn't want to war as much as you might think, you might see all the news stating US this, UK that and assume it's all propaganda or some evil ploy. The reality though is the world has a few countries that make more noise than other ones, the ones that are quiet usual are so because they know it's better to be more reserved.
In any effect the West (popular to disbelief) doesn't want to invade Russia or steal her... (*insert whatever it is to be stolen here*), the problem is that all these events in the world trigger our political leaders to do some really stupid stuff that just seems to reignite past differences that we've spent decades trying to get past. If you try to look beyond the concept of borders and politics, most (if not all) people just want to be able to live there lives, not placed in harm by needless wars, corruption or greed. Most of the time we want to be able to get along with each other, if not because of it being socially responsible but just to not add further to problems.
I can't tell you why Putin does what he does, or why things work out the way they do.
To me it's like all the nations are sat down to a card game, Russia holds it's cards close to it's chest worrying about the west spying, while the west is actually more worried that Russia isn't playing the same card game by the same rules and not actually interested in the cards Russia actually is holding.
Most US stocks are up. US stocks have been rising since 2009. You are cherry picking. And those companies have more than one customer and more than one product line. Boeing (BA) earns most of its money selling commercial aircraft.
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lets see every armed force uses missiles. most of the countries with strong economies use ballistic missiles so its not viewed as a problem unless actively firing them at civies. use anti personal land mines is viewed as the next best thing to a war crime.
Bells
Staff member
Your lying, deceitful argument and frankly, making things up, is not nice either. For example, you are going to the point where you are making racist attacks against someone because of the colour of his skin and supporting the use of landmines in well used farmland where that plane came down after it was shot down? You are willing to sink that low?
So you don't get to use the "I'm Russian" card after the racism you have espoused in this thread.
Which Ukraine?
The South-East was Russian till 1922
that's problematic map for several reasons. most of that land was populated by ukrainians or ruthenians go back way before it was even controled by the common wealth of poland and lithuania. if fact the green area and most of the yellow were part of the common wealth until 1772 so kind of hard for russia to have gifted. generally speaking almost all of that area was viewed as the territory of the Ukrainian people. the proposed creation of a ducky of ruthenia in the Treaty of Hadiach would have put almost all of that would have been part of the it.
it pushes the idea that the ukrainians and their state are an invention of the russian which isn't the truth.
Which Ukraine?
The South-East was Russian till 1922
The Ukraine which Russia did not demand in 1991 when it capitulated to Ukraine's independence from the USSR. There's no taking back, so it really doesn't matter how many times the boundaries changed between the era of the Polish empire until the dissolution of the USSR. Of course, if that were your position, then maybe you wouldn't mind returning your own home to the nation that held your land in 1654.
Exactly, the whole argument is frankly stupid. Historical Ukrainian boundaries are irrelevant. Ukrainian borders were fixed and had been widely recognized and recognized by Russia for several decades. There is only one Ukraine and only one Ukrainian government.
Bells
Staff member
And?
It is now a part of the Ukraine and recognised as such. In other words, Ukraine has set borders. It does not mean that Russia can simply stomp their way in, hand out passports to the local residents and then call them Russian citizens as a means to steal the land from another country.
Unless of course you think that Russia can simply shop around for whatever parts of other countries it can steal because those countries used to be a part of Russia 100 or so years ago? In which case, hand back Israel to the Palestinians and hand Texas back to Mexico.
You do realise you are defending the indefensible, right? Because right now, the remains of our loved one's are still in that area and the Russian armed and backed rebels are denying our people and international investigators access to retrieve them and to investigate what actually happened. Which to me looks as though they have so much to hide that they are willing to deny access to international investigators while holding their guns in hand and even, apparently, lay landmines in farmland where those remains and the downed plane happens to be. So they obviously have a lot more to hide and are doing all they can to deny anyone the ability or the chance to find out the truth. But this is what happens when you arm uncivilised and uneducated buffoons and tell them to fight for the motherland.
And?
How's Melbourne? All peaceful, yes?
Well it's built on bones of aboriginal Australians.
Wow, they lived in their land and than the English came and killed most of them and are now preaching about nonviolence and keeping borders. Can you imagine that Bells?
Hypocrisy and double standard, write that in your dictionary.
The vampire has to retreat to his graveyard. It's way too bright for him out here in the sunlight where most of us are immune to mirrors and the occasional crucifix.
And on top of playing the Russian card he was griping about Fascism.
Notice the careful departure from "totalitarianism". And notice how we aren't even talking about the 300 mostly Dutch people who were massacred by "the Cossacks" anymore? Another classic marker for psychopathy is that the perpetrator (or in this case sympathizer) takes the victim stance. Worse: here he's complaining about deaths the Russians at best proximately caused, by pouring gasoline on the fire. It's an utter lack of remorse. Racism and lack of empathy over landmine victims paints that more completely. I've pretty well come to the conclusion that just about all the cranks posting here--whether it concerns world events such as this (even as a gratuitous opportunity to revive Cold War Communist propaganda), or the attacks on science and academia seen in the science threads--are expressions of something we might recognize as clinical markers for psychopathy. I wonder if the UN has tried to define it as such. It's the underlying cause of violent international conflict, so there really ought to be an attempt to form a committee dedicated to measuring the policies of countries in terms of their psychopathic content. Remember the way all the foreign diplomats refused to shake Bush's hand at Kyoto? It's that way the whole world recoils in horror at the arrogance of the psychopathic personality type that makes this so recognizable at the gut level even for folks that never took a moment to analyze it technically. But I think it's appropriate for the UN to adopt a resolution acknowledging that there are psychopaths steering international policies, and there are cases where large segments of various populations unite under a sort of mass hysteria that is reeking with pathological markers, particularly in genocide and all other war crimes, but even in more nuanced behaviors of the most blatant of psychopaths like Putin, who manipulates that latent tendency of all people to be corrupted by a false sense of honor and patriotism.Armed with such a definition, the UN could begin to formulate a standardized protocol for handling offenders, modeled after modern psychological techniques. In this case I think they are on the right track, by isolating Russia with sanctions. Hopefully some of these will put Putin in a straightjacket. I'm particularly encouraged by the possible stress put on the Russian banks by cancelling their credit. And I'm glad the UN did this so promptly. I think they are going to be a formidable adversary to Putin after all. It's a pretty good sign that the world community is maturing after so many centuries of being stuck in their "terrible twos".
On a side note, I also find it interesting that China has arrested a top member of the Politburo, a general, and bound him over for court martial on corruption charges. Not that they are the model for either justice or remorse, but it does offer hope that they too will finally grow up, perhaps in time to take responsibility for the huge segment of the world population that they must serve and protect. Now if the Russians would just take a cue from this, they might grow out of their infantile worship of Putin and their bizarre denial of what is happening in Ukraine.
Oh look Drac is back. He couldn't answer why Russian nationals are in charge of southeast Ukraine so he had to stop and fuel up on more lies and propaganda.
Classic psychopathy. Justify your own crimes by blaming others. In this case, for the sins of the fathers. Well we were talking about the ongoing criminal activities of Russia. So get back to that. And leave the denial and blame-gaming for your comrades back at party HQ.
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
Yeh, If i could'a found a map without the word "Gift" I would'a
(wild guess du jour)
Russia will not step in until western media grow tired of Ukraine, and focus on some other tragedy of the day.
Then if Ukraine army kills too many ethnic russians, the gloves come off. Most likely preceded by words spoken in the UN.
All of this to try to trump the logic which folks like you brought to bear against the gratuitous resurrection of Cold War propaganda.
Imagine how easy WWIII would erupt if every country started playing the same same game, pretending that boundaries are reversible.I'm still waiting for the answer to the nationality of Borodai and Bezler and how that reconciles with the claim that the US is "inserted" in Kiev. Dracula is doing a hemoglobin count.
It looks like you haven't read the answer (oh wait youreyes never answered me did he) --- that the "Prime Minister" of southeast Ukraine is a citizen of Moscow, a Lt Col who admits ties to the Russian intelligence service. Same for Bezler, the CO of the area near the debris field, who has been identified as the voice on the cell phone intercept, who calls the people who launched the missile(s) as "Cossacks".
Also, the burn stripes on the field where Russians launched rockets onto Ukrainian positions, now cratered, says that Russia has stepped in.
Bells
Staff member
Cold I'd imagine, seeing as they are having a particularly cold winter.
Yes. You don't see me denying that, do you? Then again, why do you care? I'm actually surprised you didn't call them "Nigerians" as well, since by the looks of it, all black people are the same to you.
No, did not kill most of them. History lesson, since you appear to be going off on a tangent with very little knowledge about the subject matter. Most were not killed. Had you been talking about Tasmania's Indigenous population, then you would have a point, as they all died off due to being killed or they died from the diseases white settler's brought with them. Mainland Australian Indigenous population suffered varied fates and to varying degrees, but no, most of them were not killed off.
That aside... See, Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians all agree, 100%, that arming uneducated and untrained, mouth breathing and drunken retards and blowing passenger jets out of the sky, letting the bodies of innocent men, women and children rot in the fields while armed gunmen threaten anyone who tries to remove them or treat the bodies with respect (ie, not wrapping their now decomposing remains in garbage bags and leaving them on the side of the road and letting others rot in the fields) and denying any chance of an investigation for what and how that plane was blown out of the sky and supporting their lies, Putin's lies and the continued support and arming of said retards, is a bad thing.
Funny that, isn't it?
I live here, so I don't have to imagine what Indigenous Australians are going through. I can go out and see it. But once again, they, even after all they have been through historically, would never agree with what Putin did (ie. arming uneducated drunken twats) and encourage them to fight to rejoin Russia, which by doing so, resulted in a jet full of innocent men, women and children being literally blown out of the skies. How proud you must have felt at that very moment, so much so that you have taken it upon yourself, the "single Russian" on this site to spread disinformation and lies to match the lies and deceit of Putin and his henchmen, along with your racist vitriol.
Which is an absolute laugh coming from you. Let me know when you've stopped feeding off the teat of the US and have moved back to the motherland, Putin's fanboy.. Assuming you even have a Russian passport, which, I would guess, you do not.
How ironic that this allegation would come from a person who worships a system which is rooted in ethnic cleansing, anti-Semitism, and all of the atrocities of Stalin and Lenin, to include the mass murder and mayhem from all the invasions of sovereign nations that Russia annexed into the USSR. and of course the subjugation or imprisonment of a large portion of the world population, with its associated brutality. By contrast, the British Crown was engaging in claims to lands in pursuit of commercial trade with the Orient, and relying on the laws of that era which gave no sovereign status to primitive nations. So regardless of the outcome (slaughter of innocents) the harm inflicted was probably at least mostly lawful by those long-obsolete standards. By contrast the early Soviets were building the most barbarous system conceivable, which effectively converted all free people within its claws into chattel, and thereafter systematically threw the lives it didn't want into the trash. There simply is no comparison. Only a depraved mind could try to shift blame away from the pathos of Soviet Russia, resurrected recently by Putin, and stand unremorseful about the sins of his own fathers, a flaw made evident by trying to make you feel guilty about the sins of your fathers.
Indeed, they had little or no evidence of the nature of contagions and while it could be said there is liability, in the sense of proximately causing so much death from disease, the point is that there was no deliberacy in infecting them (it was not biological warfare), whereas the Soviets had drawn out intricate procedures to realizing their horrific scheme, and developed it over nearly 8 decades of concerted effort, to include the most heinous kinds of deliberate death, disease and pain of every description. And Putin is drawing from those same methods today. It's that chronic sense of murder with impunity, and theft of the victims' property and subjugation of the survivors, which makes their motive so obviously criminal. By contrast the English were attempting to prosecute criminal conduct by establishing prisons on the Australian continent. Again, no comparison.
The world will not forget this. It needs to go to court immediately, so the Dutch and the other survivors can complete the grieving process, try to heal, and try to move on. Russia simply has to stop being the boat anchor that swamps the world with its baggage of Soviet . . . (well penis envy I guess, borrowing again from CptBork.) Or, I would prefer that the UN and the Hague classify it as "state-sponsored psychopathy" or something along those lines.
The lack of remorse completely exposes their guilt. All but the criminal minds expressed shock and outrage. Even an accidental launch (I doubt that) by a "courageous band of freedom fighters" would have been followed by a cessation of hostilities, support of the forensic teams, and apprehension of "the Cossacks" for immediate extradition to the Netherlands or Malaysia. This they would do to legitimize their movement. The cold blooded reaction will kill them in the end. Now they are all seen as cowards, riddled with guilt and merely trying to save their own necks. That's why no one believes they are fighting for self determination. Gandhi was fighting for self determination. This is why there are international laws regulating war crimes. There are simply no more Gandhis left who can be trusted to police themselves. Especially not at the steppes of Russia. And Putin goes down for this, for failing to order a cease fire and having the debris field treated with the same security he would impose if an Aeroflot jet had been shot down. And he should have immediately released all communications intercepts, including all of his army's own traffic, and of course the missile launch detection from his own surveillance satellites, plus all the electronic intel that comes from the ancillary systems like trackers. An innocent person would do no less. But of course he is buried under a mountain of guilt, unable to extricate himself, now practically a deer in headlights. I wonder if he is hiding in a bunker, anticipating an attempt on his life. There's a possible scenario-maybe he will implode into a drooling paranoid schizo. But the world needs to see him on trial, preferably able to tell the court what day it is.
Probably just an agitator who gets his thrills by stirring the pot (I would note that harassing strangers for the buzz is also a marker for psychopathy).