More Ukrainian Events

[Billy T]

Facts, what facts BillyT?

I told you the widely accepted facts, both by Westerners and Russia in post 1017 * but here is the most important one again:

'This is not a question of who to belief but a conclusion that follows from the facts all accept. Especially that the holes in plane's skin are round."

BTW, MH17 came down in rebel held territory and Russia has a lot of the physical evidence as a result but all do agree that the holes in the plane's skin are basically round. Russia at first tried to use this fact as proof a fighter's cannon made the holes. (Perhaps not realizing immediately that pre-1999 Burk made holes were round too.)

You are just, as usual "blowing distracting smoke."

* A convenient link to post 1017 is: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/more-ukrainian-events.141330/page-51#post-3303160

 

[joepistole]

I told you the widely accepted facts, both by Westerners and Russia in post 1017 * but here is the most important one again:

'This is not a question of who to belief but a conclusion that follows from the facts all accept. Especially that the holes in plane's skin are round."

BTW, MH17 came down in rebel held territory and Russia has a lot of the physical evidence as a result but all do agree that the holes in the plane's skin are basically round. Russia at first tried to use this fact as proof a fighter's cannon made the holes. (Perhaps not realizing immediately that pre-1999 Burk made holes were round too.)

You are just, as usual "blowing distracting smoke."

* A convenient link to post 1017 is: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/more-ukrainian-events.141330/page-51#post-3303160

So fact and reason are "blowing distracting smoke" are they? Where is your evidence Russians examined the aircraft after it was shot down? Where is your evidence Russians removed portions of the aircraft for examination as you have asserted? The Russian armament company you cited didn't reference possession of actual physical evidence or examining actual physical evidence. One of your problems BillyT is you penchant for spurious sources. Just because Putin's armament company says something, it doesn't make it true. Putin and his cronies have a long track record of lying.

If this is a simple matter of fact as you assert, if Western sources agree as you assert, where are those sources?

 

[joepistole]

"The group describing itself as a Russian investigative committee said the testimony of the man “is important proof that Ukrainian military was implicated in the crash of the Boeing 777”.

However, previous claims of Ukrainian involvement in shooting down the civilian passenger jet have been roundly dismissed. Efforts to shift the blame from the Kremlin have extended to supposed satellite photos that were said to implicate the Ukrainians but were quickly identified as crude fakes and dismissed.

The MH17 flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down over territory in eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists, who have been fighting Kiev forces since April.

Ukraine and the west say a Russian surface-to-air missile launcher was used to shoot it down but Russia has issued several opposing theories."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-airfield-witness-who-blames-ukrainian-pilot

Your Russian source is just the latest attempt to deflect blame in order to seek economic relief from Western sanctions.

"First they said it wasn't a Buk missile. Now, suddenly, they're saying it is but it wasn't them. So I just think the credibility is not 100 percent here on that," said U.S. State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf in Washington."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/02/russia-missile-mh17_n_7491446.html

The Dutch will release the result of their investigation in October of this year. And not even your source has said they have examined the actual evidence as you. Your Russian source says they have only examined pictures and their conclusions are based on those pictures.

 

[Schmelzer]

This is a Russian land grab. The "separatists" are led, financed, supplied, and directed by Putin. According to the "separatist" leader, they are mostly staffed by vacationing Russian troops. I am not sure who is the titular leaders of the separatists at this time. But the original separatist leader was a Russian state security officer as was the military commander.

No, this is no Russian land grab.

The initial military leader, Strelkov, has been, in the past, also a Russian state security officer, but already retired. At that time, he was simply an adventurist. He has started his action coming from Crimea - with 50 other guys, how many of them with russian passports and how many with ukrainian ones is not known. In Slavjansk, there have been already several hundreds of local guys waiting for somebody with military knowledge to lead them. Then, the claim by Sachartshenko was that there may be there are, among the volunteers from Russia, also some in active duty but simply in vacation. The "mostly" is clearly your invention (or, of course, of some Western media which are full of lies).

Sachartshenko himself is a local ukrainian guy. There was some Russian pressure to change the power. But it was directed agains Strelkov - the Russian guy who you claimed to be from Russian state security. Guess why the Russian side wanted to get rid of him? I can explain: His program was to fight, without any peace negotiations, and then to join Russia. Thus, if Putins plan would have been land grab, Strelkov would have been the ideal leader.

 

[Billy T]

So fact and reason are "blowing distracting smoke" are they? ...

No but you have not presented any - only demands that others document their claims. I can not prove what Russia removed from the HM17 crash site in the more than a month in which only they had any access to it, but strongly suspect they did not go home empty handed.

 

[joepistole]

No but you have not presented any - only demands that others document their claims. I can not prove what Russia removed from the HM17 crash site in the more than a month in which only they had any access to it, but strongly suspect they did not go home empty handed.

Then you should not have represented it as fact. One would think that if Russia removed material the Dutch would be aware of it and one would expect to see some photographic evidence. Not even Russia or the Russians you cite claim to have removed material from the crash site as you did. The bottom line here is there is no new news. Russia continues to obfuscate in order to weasel out of Western trade sanctions.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I am a firm believer that if you want the truth you have to study the raw info available immediately after the event and not months later... example:
If you listen closely to the voices on the telephone intercept ( presume correct interpretations for the text ) the transcripted telephone conversations are pretty damning that separatist shot down the airliner.

I also notice in the transcript one of the unknown militants asks a question "Is there anything left of the weapon" even after being told it was a commercial airline. (my interpretation: he was expecting a weapon to be on board a plane he also expected to be shot down... suggestive of premeditation)

You may also notice the unknown "militants" take a superior position to that of the known Major.

 

[Quantum Quack]

full written transcript ( translated to English)
src: http://www.ibtimes.com/mh17-crash-f...between-russian-intelligence-officers-1631992

Note the emphasis regarding a supposed weapon. (in red)

Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. That was “miner’s group. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Grek”: Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

“Greek”: Are many people there?

“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this. They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

Nikolay Kozitsin (a Cossack commander): That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.
=====
One can only wonder what weapon the "Greek" was referring to?

Billy T, Is it possible that the separatists had used a BUK missile system they had captured from the Ukraine armed forces at an earlier stage in the conflict?