More Ukrainian Events

[sculptor]

People have the right to choose how they will live and under which government.
Countries have the right to choose their destiny.

These 2 rights occasionally conflict.
They conflicted 150 years ago in this country(USA).

Should Ukraine follow our path, or that of Czechoslovakia?

 

[joepistole]

People have the right to choose how they will live and under which government.
Countries have the right to choose their destiny.

These 2 rights occasionally conflict.
They conflicted 150 years ago in this country(USA).

Should Ukraine follow our path, or that of Czechoslovakia?

And you think that makes sense? So your argument is Russia has a right to invade and annex it's neighbors as it has done in Georgia and Ukraine?

The events in Ukraine are in NO WAY analogous to the US revolution. You need to beef up on your history.

 

[joepistole]

That is what Western media want you to believe, that the rebels are "terrorists", that the Kiev government is all doing the "right thing", that the plane was shot down by rebels, and that rebels are "preventing" the internation committee from finding out the truth.

In reality things are much different. Rebels are Ukrainians just like the armies bombing Donbass region right now, the only difference is that these Ukranian government armies are controlled currently by the US advisors and NATO. The plane meanwhile was shot down by the Ukraine army forces, but CNN is already lying about "mounting evidences" stating otherwise. Rebels have been securing the site of crash to prevent the Ukraine army from gaining access and altering the data. At some point all the lies told by the West will come crumbling down and their neverending backdoor ***t they keep on doing in other countries will come to a halt.

Said the pot to the kettle, the fact is you have absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support ANY of your allegations. Whereas those who you accuse do have evidence and corroborating evidence from multiple sources.

And the press you accuse of bias is not controlled by the state as it is in Mother Russia. In the West, our press is free. In the US freedom of the press is engrained in our constitution. The West and in particular the US has a long tradition of a free press and free speech. Whereas the press in Mother Russia has rarely been free. And it certainly is not now free.

 

[cosmictraveler]

When did they vote on disbanding the previous government?

That's my point they never did. That is why I said that the voting should include whatever it is that the country as a whole wants, not just the separatists, to insure that the majority will get what they want.

 

[sculptor]

And you think that makes sense? So your argument is Russia has a right to invade and annex it's neighbors as it has done in Georgia and Ukraine?

The events in Ukraine are in NO WAY analogous to the US revolution. You need to beef up on your history.

makes sense? maybe not to all, but Obama said roughly the same thing recently. When the rights of the people conflict with the rights of the state, is there a "right way"?
Do the ethnic russians of eastern Ukraine have the right to self determination?
Does Ukraine have the right to impose their will on this minority?

not the revolution(239-231 years ago)----the civil war(153-149 years ago)

not russia, but people living within the borders of "Ukraine"

joepistole: Many people mistakenly read what they think I mean, instead of what I actually post. You ain't alone, but you could do better.

 

[joepistole]

makes sense? maybe not to all, but Obama raid roughly the same thing recently. When the rights of the people conflict with the rights of the state, is there a "right way"?
Do the ethnic russians of eastern Ukraine have the right to self determination?
Does Ukraine have the right to impose their will on this minority?

not the revolution(239-231 years ago)----the civil war(149-153 years ago)

not russia, but people living within the borders of "Ukraine"

joepistole: Many people mistakenly read what they think I mean, instead of what I actually post. You ain't alone, but you could do better.

If this were about ethnic Russian minorities living in Ukraine, why are they not leading the "rebellion"? Why is the "rebellion" being led by Russian state security officers? Why are the fighters recruited in Russia, trained in Russia, armed in Russia and sent into Ukraine to fight the Ukrainian government?

Comparing what is happening in Ukraine to the American Civil war makes even less sense. The American Civil War was led, funded, and fought by Americans and not a foreign power as is the case in Ukraine. Russian state security officers are leading the Ukrainian fighters. Russia is recruiting Rusian, trainning them, arming them, supplying them and abetting them. Further, we live in a democracy. We operate under the principal of majority rule.

If ethnic Russians living in Ukraine wanted change, the appropriate place for that is in the ballot box and not through the barrel of a gun.

 

[sculptor]

If this were about ethnic Russian minorities living in Ukraine, why are they not leading the "rebellion"? Why is the "rebellion" being led by Russian state security officers? Why are the fighters recruited in Russia, trained in Russia, armed in Russia and sent into Ukraine to fight the Ukrainian government?

Comparing what is happening in Ukraine to the American Civil war makes even less sense. The American Civil War was led, funded, and fought by Americans and not a foreign power as is the case in Ukraine. Russian state security officers are leading the Ukrainian fighters. Further, we live in a democracy. We operate under the principal of majority rule.

Did not the CIA lead the coup against Salvador Allende?(dozens of other examples are available--eg: Syria)
Did not the SAS lead the "revolution" in Libya?

The pot should refrain from calling the kettle black.

You seem radically anti-Russian.

 

[joepistole]

Did not the CIA lead the coup against Salvador Allende?(dozens of other examples are available--eg: Syria)
Did not the SAS lead the "revolution" in Libya?

How is that even remotely relevant? Did the CIA annex Chile?

Did the CIA fight a civil war in Chile? No it didn't. You are comparing apples to horses again. And no SAS did not lead the Lybian revolution. Lybians led their revolution. Did SAS annex portions of Libya? No they didn't.

You seem radically anti-Russian.

So you think conforming to international law makes one "radically anti-Russian". Interesting, one nation doesn't have the right to invade and annex another. That has been international law for a long time. The US didn't annex Japan after WWII or any portion of Europe, nor did it annex Afghanistan or Iraq or Kuwait. Unwarranted invasions an occupations should have died with Hitler.

I am an investor, a capitalist. Trade sanctions against Russia will hurt my pocketbook. Because trade sanctions will hurt Europe. But there is a bigger issue here. The world cannot afford and may not survive another Hitler. And what Putin is doing in Mother Russia is exactly what Hitler did. Look up Nevile Chamberlain.

If I speak out against the American government, as I did when George II was POTUS, does that make me anti-American? That is what American Republicans said when George II was POTUS. Speaking out against the government doesn't seem to bother those same republicans now that a democrat is in the White House.

 

[pjdude1219]

Ukraine has no economy apart from trade with Russia. It's citizens are eligible for Russian citizenship. They speak Russian. Russia and Ukraine were part of the same country not too long ago. Ukraine is currently under questionable leadership after a coup of questionable legality. What's so wrong with taking over?

Actually they speak Ukrainian. But good job minimizing like your eyes did. Um what's wrong with Russians trying to reconquer ukraine um let's see it's not russian territory and the ukraine don't want to be ruled by russians

 

[cosmictraveler]

Actually they speak Ukrainian. But good job minimizing like your eyes did. Um what's wrong with Russians trying to reconquer ukraine um let's see it's not russian territory and the ukraine don't want to be ruled by russians

Why does Russia need more land?

 

[pjdude1219]

Why does Russia need more land?

it doesn't

 

[sculptor]

Why does Russia need more land?

Russia needs more people, more breeders

 

[CptBork]

Why does Russia need more land?

More land = bigger national penis, it's all about bruised fascist egos.

 

[billvon]

Do you know where the story of "tampering" and removal of dead bodies comes from? Kiev.

And now from Russians as well.
==============================
An Instagram user reportedly posted pictures of a woman with makeup taken from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine, sparking outrage online.

In the pictures, the woman holds a tube of mascara from European cosmetics brand Catrice, The Atlantic Wire reports. A caption translated into English reads, "Mascara from Amsterdam, or rather from the field, well you understand."

Other pictures show the woman wearing the mascara.

The Instagram user, presumably the woman in the pictures, wrote in the comments for one of the pictures that the mascara was provided by "an acquaintance of mine, a looter," British tabloid the Daily Mail reports.

The Kyiv Post reports that the user also wrote that she identifies with the pro-Russia separatists fighting the Ukrainian government and is "sick of everything Ukrainian due to the recent events."

The pictures received a lot of attention when a well-known Russian blogger posted them to her Facebook account, The Atlantic Wire reports.
==============================

 

[Bells]

Show me the article that says it knows in fact that bodies were desecrated. I know bodies were removed and put in freezers and then handed over to authorities but maybe the National Inquirer knows more than the NYTimes. The rest of what you have written is just nonsense unworthy of intelligent discourse since you are simply posing an attitude without a shred of analysis.

The bodies were made to fester and decompose in the hot sun because the rebels refused access to anyone, including investigators, and people to remove the bodies quickly.

When international investigators attempted to access the site, they were blocked off by gun toting rebels who denied them access.

Do you know where the story of "tampering" and removal of dead bodies comes from? Kiev.

Yes, it came from watching them do it on the news. As in literally, watching them do it on the news.

Then of course we have this:

And, in a shocking example of evidence tampering, local emergency workers have been seen using angle grinders to cut up parts of the cockpit and front fuselage section of the Boeing Aircraft.

Later they used their van with a steel cable on a tow bar to drag the jet apart, unwittingly destroying potentially vital evidence.

And this:

The wife of MH17 victim Cameron Dalziel has been forced to cancel her dead husband’s credit cards as withdrawals had been attempted from within Ukraine, CNN reports.

The South African born father of two was travelling on a British passport while travelling home to Malaysia after attending a conference in Amsterdam.

Shane Hattingh, the brother of Cameron's widow, told CNN “people are abusing it (his card) in the Ukraine.”

And this:

CORPSES bloat and the stench ripens. In July, it is sunny and warm in east Ukraine. The occasional rains hasten decomposition, and this draws another kind of army: the flies.

Relatives worldwide watch the reports. Their loved ones are the casualties of a war of which they never enlisted. It is a no-man’s land without precedent. These are the stories that ought not need to be told, about souls doomed to a badlands of peasantries and pillages. Here, their deaths are treated as an unfortunate distraction.

Men in big boots stomp through wheat fields. Their balaclava-clad heads poke through sunflower crops. A man is seen lifting a ring and putting it in a plastic bag. Piles of clothes and children’s toys are heaped next to pieces of luggage that did not blow open on impact.

An Australian journalist early to the scene checks wallets on the ground: none contains money. In Malaysia, Cameron Dalziel’s widow Reine is cancelling his credit card because it is being used in Ukraine.

In the Netherlands, relatives ring the mobile phones of lost loves. They are answered by men with thick accents. Each successful connection is another show of disrespect, another call of the wild.

An extended internet news report circulates. The footage depicts limbs at ragdoll angles. What it does not show is almost as terrible. Where are the protocols? Bodies lie uncovered, it seems, except when villagers scrunch up plastic sheeting.

The viewer’s anger swells: is the provision of the barest dignity too much to spare for these barbarian troops? For here the bodies will stay, untended, while separatists menace official observers and shellfire rumbles in the distance.

---

That commander has orders — no outsiders, including a nearby international observation team, are to get hold of the material. Khodakovsky says he is awaiting instructions on the black boxes from “our high-placed friends … in Moscow”.

It is Malaysia that announces, with pride, that it has secured access to the black boxes after extensive negotiations with Alexander Borodai, the denim-loving president of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. The boxes are unveiled from a white plastic bag. Borodai bowls up to a press conference, a study in nonchalance. “Here they are, the black boxes,” he reportedly says.

By now, after three days, bodies are suddenly being carted away. As are plane parts, for no good reason. The remains are stored in four train trucks in Torez, about 15km from the crash sites. They are refrigerated by a locomotive, but not soon enough for an inspection team engulfed by the smell in the absence of protective gear.

---

The OSCE has been on site since the day after the crash (it has been in the area observing for months, and members have been kidnapped by splinter separatist militias). It has been kept at a distance, sometimes with guns, but Bociurkiw has seen odd changes in the wreckage’s appearance.

Plane parts seem to have been sliced into. Members have observed the cockpit section being cut by uniformed men with a power saw. The tailfin looks different. Others see a crane lifting plane parts. A van tugs at wreckage with a rope. Angle grinders whirr.

This was not from Kiev. But observed by international investigators and reporters who are there.

But keep trying.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

CORPSES bloat and the stench ripens. In July, it is sunny and warm in east Ukraine. The occasional rains hasten decomposition, and this draws another kind of army: the flies. . . .

Russia had almost rehabilitated itself. We had almost forgiven and forgotten its atrocities during the Cold War. We were almost ready to accept Russia as a modern nation, one that could take its place in the civilized world.

Then they pull a stunt like this? They're still treating the Ukrainians the way they did before and during WWII: as vermin to be exterminated. Pretty much the same way the Israelis treat the Palestinians (although in their defense it must be said that the Israelis have slightly more reason to mistreat the Palestinians than the Russians have for mistreating the Ukrainians--who are not trying to kill them and who do not deny their country's right to exist).

At this point, Russia has completely lost any momentum it had gathered for being (warily) accepted as part of European culture and the European economy.

They're the same assholes they were under Lenin and Stalin. Nothing has changed except the absence of the hammer and sickle on their flag.

Yes, I know that the majority of the Russian people are just ordinary folks like you and me, who only want to get along with everybody and try to better their lives. But until they find a way to reform their government, which is Soviet in everything but its name, they will continue to pay for that government's sins.

My god, they're annexing territory belonging to other nations! When was the last time we did that: Hawaii, clear back in the 19th century?

 

[joepistole]

More sanctions are coming. Putin has backed himself into a corner. He has ignited the flames of Russian nationalism and ethic supremacy. The question is can he be convinced to extinguish them? Can he extinguish them? I think sectorial sanctions may become a reality within weeks. Putin's irregular forces operating in Ukraine are loosing. They have been pushed out of city after city. The Ukrainian government now claims to be on the verge of taking Donetsk, the largest city held by Putin's forces. With the land held by Putin's forces rapidly shrinking, Putin has felt compelled to use his regular uniformed troops. Putin's regular uniformed troops have been providing artillery and air support from Russian territory. The question is will Putin's uniformed troops stay on their side of the border as his irregular forces flee from Ukrainian troops? Putin is loosing and he is becoming more and more desperate. The 64 million dollar question is, what will he do? He is putting himself in a no win situation which is a dangerous situation for a man like Putin.

Putin does control Russian media, so he can paint whatever story he wishes for the Russian people. Perhaps he can paint a picture that makes him out to be a hero while in the throes of defeat. Though, I am just not sure what that story would be. Another interesting point here is that Ukrainians are defeating Putin's irregular forces all on their own without lethal aid from the West. If Putin's forces do cross the border, I think the West will be compelled to, at a minimum, provide lethal aid to Ukraine. And then the question becomes how long can Russians eat their oil?


Interesting Observation From Biden of Putin:
Vice President Biden told Vladimir Putin that he did not believe the Russian leader had “a soul” during a visit to the Kremlin in 2011, the vice president said in a New Yorker magazine interview published Monday.

Biden said the incident occurred while he was touring Putin’s office in the Kremlin.

“I had an interpreter, and when he was showing me his office I said, ‘It’s amazing what capitalism will do, won’t it? A magnificent office!’ And he laughed. As I turned, I was this close to him,” Biden said, signaling that the two leaders were standing just inches apart. “I said, ‘Mr. Prime Minister, I’m looking into your eyes, and I don’t think you have a soul.’”
Pressed on if the anecdote was true, Biden confirmed, “absolutely, positively.”

“And he looked back at me, and he smiled, and he said, ‘We understand one another.’” Biden said. “This is who this guy is!”


Read more: http://thehill.com/policy/international/212805-biden-to-putin-you-have-no-soul#ixzz38iO3LR00
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook


What will the soulless Putin do? That is the question. He obviously cares little about the lives of those he rules and even less for those he doesn't.

 

[p-brane]

Vice President Biden told Vladimir Putin that he did not believe the Russian leader had “a soul”

It would've been funny if Putin had replied "correct" and left Biden wondering what he meant by that.

 

[youreyes]

Putin has and will always have an overwhelming majority support higher than 85% currently in any case of US economical sanctions. We, Russians stand by our president and by the people of Ukraine firmly. Anyways, this US-Ukraine project will soon cost US too much money to support. They already are loosing their precious oil in Iraq and Syria isn't going to be their pie either. The rebels will continue to have full support.

I wan you to understand something joepistole, people like you are plenty in US government, the anti-Russians who always preach for liberty and justice and that US has the right to decide who is right or wrong. Well Russians don't give a ****t about what US thinks. We simply do not care for any economic sanctions, no matter how heavy they are. I grew up in an epoch of collapse, I speak for all Russians, we are a strong nation and we know how to survive and excel in the times of hardship, no matter if half the world is against us.

The only, and I repeat, the only soulless human during that talk between Biden and President Vladimir Putin, is Biden. Treacherous, lying, piece of sh**t.

 

[billvon]

Putin has and will always have an overwhelming Russian population majority support higher than 85% currently in any case of US economical sanctions.

Saddam Hussein had 99% support from the population according to his polls.

Anyways, this US-Ukraine project will soon cost US too much money to support.

Fortunately we won't have to. Now that all the nations of the world are at risk from rebel aggression, it will quickly become a much wider effort.