More Ukrainian Events

And the Malaysian authorities promptly turned the black boxes over to their "enemies" for analysis.

And that's besides the point. If they wanted to destroy evidence the boxes would be gone.

As its been reported "In the early hours of the investigation, determining clear accountability for a missile attack was impossible, in part because all three of the forces in or near the conflict area - the pro-Russian separatists, the Ukrainian military and the Russian military - could possess SA-11s, which are one of many legacy weapons from the Soviet Union circulating through this war." Suspecting someone of guilt does not make them guilty.
 
The whole reason why Ukraine illegitimate forces had this missile hit the civilian aircraft was to discredit the rebels and have them labeled as "terrorists" in international community. The civilian aircraft was purposely changed course to an area of warzone. It's like Nazis putting an innocent child in the middle of the warzone and making sure he is used as a human shield and will get hit and than going to international community and saying "its their bullet that killed them, bomb them".

Now you're doing what Bells and others are doing, which is to claim you know who did what and why when there is no evidence to suggest what happened either way.
 
And that's besides the point. If they wanted to destroy evidence the boxes would be gone.

No it isn't beside the point. It means the Malaysian government finds their "enemies" credible. And the black boxes were gone for a time. The inconsistent and contradictory explanations didn't work. Now they are floating conspiracies (e.g. the plane was loaded with dead bodies, it was a trap, it was a spy plane, etc.) for which they have zero evidence.
 
No it isn't beside the point. It means the Malaysian government finds their "enemies" credible. And the black boxes were gone for a time. The inconsistent and contradictory explanations didn't work. Now they are floating conspiracies (e.g. the plane was loaded with dead bodies, it was a trap, it was a spy plane, etc.) for which they have zero evidence.

And why is it interesting what the Malaysian government thinks? The rebels allowed access to international investigators and they didn't want to hand over the black box to Kiev so they gave it to the Malaysian authorities, they surely knew that an international aviation authority would examine those boxes. What is clear is that you have decided upon guilt and so the investigation nor the evidence matters much, if it did you would wait and see what comes out of that investigation. I could say that in the event of a crash in the middle of a civil war it would take time to find the boxes and the timing in which the boxes were retrieved is acceptable, hell even normal but you are like those who insist Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, no amount of contrary information will get through because you've made up your mind. The truth is that no one yet knows, even US officials say that when they are not saying whom they suspect. Why is it so hard to wait and see what the report states? Was it deliberate? An accident? A cover-up? A misdirection? Wait and see.
 
And why is it interesting what the Malaysian government thinks? The rebels allowed access to international investigators and they didn't want to hand over the black box to Kiev so they gave it to the Malaysian authorities, they surely knew that an international aviation authority would examine those boxes. What is clear is that you have decided upon guilt and so the investigation nor the evidence matters much, if it did you would wait and see what comes out of that investigation.

LOL, wait for what exactly? Wait for someone to tell me what to think? The "rebels" (I.e. Russian irregular forces led by a Russian state security major General) only turned over the black boxes after several delays and inconsistent claims. And access to the site was only allowed after the site had been thoroughly contaminated - parts had been carried off and bodies plundered. And that access has been limited to portions of the debris field. Investigators have not been allowed to interview wittnesses. That isn't much access.
 
And that's besides the point. If they wanted to destroy evidence the boxes would be gone.

As its been reported "In the early hours of the investigation, determining clear accountability for a missile attack was impossible, in part because all three of the forces in or near the conflict area - the pro-Russian separatists, the Ukrainian military and the Russian military - could possess SA-11s, which are one of many legacy weapons from the Soviet Union circulating through this war." Suspecting someone of guilt does not make them guilty.

There is plenty of guilt on several fronts. In the first place the separatists are behaving like they are at war with the west. They have effectively desecrated the bodies and tampered with evidence. This is consistent with a guilty mind. The available evidence is also telling us that they are guilty. For me the most damning piece of evidence is that the Russians did not immediately respond with their own reports of a missile launch detection. And they carry the guilt of all of their crimes preceding this event. They are unilaterally interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation that they historically have bullied as overlords. Both the Russians and the separatists are behaving as if there is no such thing as international law, as if they are running something. They are not. The government of Ukraine is the sole recognized authority over its internal affairs. The pro Russian faction probably has considerable grievances against the central government but they have failed to demonstrate restraint from undue violence and a predisposition of contempt for the rest of the world. Both of them were guilty going into this, and now the weight of the evidence suggests that they are guilty as sin of a heinous war crime. If justice be served, then the perpetrators would stand trial in The Hague without any chance of a change of venue.
 
Ukraine has no economy apart from trade with Russia. It's citizens are eligible for Russian citizenship. They speak Russian. Russia and Ukraine were part of the same country not too long ago. Ukraine is currently under questionable leadership after a coup of questionable legality. What's so wrong with taking over?
 
Ukraine has no economy apart from trade with Russia. It's citizens are eligible for Russian citizenship. They speak Russian. Russia and Ukraine were part of the same country not too long ago. Ukraine is currently under questionable leadership after a coup of questionable legality. What's so wrong with taking over?


Doing so with voting is fine but Putin wants to bully them into capitulating.
 
There is plenty of guilt on several fronts. In the first place the separatists are behaving like they are at war with the west. They have effectively desecrated the bodies and tampered with evidence. This is consistent with a guilty mind. The available evidence is also telling us that they are guilty. For me the most damning piece of evidence is that the Russians did not immediately respond with their own reports of a missile launch detection. And they carry the guilt of all of their crimes preceding this event. They are unilaterally interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation that they historically have bullied as overlords. Both the Russians and the separatists are behaving as if there is no such thing as international law, as if they are running something. They are not. The government of Ukraine is the sole recognized authority over its internal affairs. The pro Russian faction probably has considerable grievances against the central government but they have failed to demonstrate restraint from undue violence and a predisposition of contempt for the rest of the world. Both of them were guilty going into this, and now the weight of the evidence suggests that they are guilty as sin of a heinous war crime. If justice be served, then the perpetrators would stand trial in The Hague without any chance of a change of venue.

How? They are fighting with Kiev not the West. If the West attempts to force Eastern Ukraine to remain a part of a union of which they choose not to belong then its the West interfering with them, not the other way around. Where is the evidence of "desecrated bodies" and "tampered evidence"? International authorities say the evidence is intact (black box). As for the "mounting evidence" news agencies offer a different version of reality "Evidence gathered by US intelligence officials suggests pro-Russian separatists launched the SA-11 surface-to-air missile that blew up the Malaysia Airlines flight on Thursday, BUT IT REMAINS UNCLEAR "WHO PULLED THE TRIGGER" AND WHY". How is it you know more than the investigating authorities, Dutch government and US intelligence officials? I bet you still think Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

Show me the article that says it knows in fact that bodies were desecrated. I know bodies were removed and put in freezers and then handed over to authorities but maybe the National Inquirer knows more than the NYTimes. The rest of what you have written is just nonsense unworthy of intelligent discourse since you are simply posing an attitude without a shred of analysis.
 
The Dutch government said it “would hold off assigning blame as it pursues its top priorities of recovering the victims’ bodies and conducting an independent investigation of the crash site in eastern Ukraine.” I suggest you do the same.

Note the above - "The actual determination of the cause of the crash will likely have to await a physical examination of the wreckage."

What we know is that the rebels didn't want to hand over any evidence to their enemies in Kiev nor the supporters of their enemies . . . .

Do you have any proof of this?
 
Note the above - "The actual determination of the cause of the crash will likely have to await a physical examination of the wreckage."



Do you have any proof of this?

You can repeat that phrase all you want but it doesn't change this fact "Dutch investigators on Monday inspected bodies recovered from downed passenger airliner MH17 which had been loaded on to a train under rebel control, an AFP reporter said."I think the storage of the bodies is (of) good quality," Peter Van Vliet, the forensic expert leading the Dutch team, said after examining the corpses. They recovered 200 bodies and a search team is looking for 98 bodies over a 34 kilometer area. So why would these crafty rebels offer 200 bodies and hide away 98. Is it that you think they used their x-ray vision to discern which bodies showed "evidence" and which ones didn't?

Do you know where the story of "tampering" and removal of dead bodies comes from? Kiev. It was Kiev that complained and laid the accusation “the terrorists” had taken 38 bodies to a morgue in the rebel-held city of Donetsk. It said the rebels were also trying to transport the plane’s wreckage to Russia. It was all bullshit. The bodies were refrigerated and no evidence was sent to Russia. Yet you are using their propaganda even when the mainstream media writes differently. There is a difference between speculation and fact, rumor and confirmed fact. I recall something about truth putting on its boots while...




Yes I would be glad to. Pro Russian activists first refused to hand over evidence to Ukranian National Security who wanted it, they also deny access to the site. Putin and Merkel get together and discuss the matter after which they agreed to an international independent commission. Then the Malaysian Transport Minister Liow Tiong Lai went to Kiev. Putin and the Malaysian Prime Minister speak. It is then decided between the Ukraine and the rebels that a security zone would be provided around the crash site, then later its decided that the Pro Russian activists would hand over evidence to the Malaysian authorities (black box) and bodies to international authorities.
 
The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry.

July 20, 2014

In the heat of the U.S. media’s latest war hysteria – rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin – there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere – with key questions not being asked or answered. The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose?

Instead, the Post’s Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung wrote from Kiev: “The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jetliner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“‘We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,’ the official said. U.S. intelligence was ‘starting to get indications … a little more than a week ago’ that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official” whose identity was withheld by the Post so the official would discuss intelligence matters.

But catch the curious vagueness of the official’s wording: “we do believe”; “starting to get indications.” Are we supposed to believe – and perhaps more relevant, do the Washington Post writers actually believe – that the U.S. government with the world’s premier intelligence services can’t track three lumbering trucks each carrying large mid-range missiles?

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system is “Russian-made,” a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated.

However, to use the “Russian-made” point to suggest that the Russians must have been involved in the shoot-down is misleading at best and clearly designed to influence ill-informed Americans. As the Post and other news outlets surely know, the Ukrainian military also operates Russian-made military systems, including Buk anti-aircraft batteries, so the manufacturing origin has no probative value here.

Relying on the Ukraine Regime

Much of the rest of the known case against Russia comes from claims made by the Ukrainian regime, which emerged from the unconstitutional coup d’etat against elected President Viktor Yanukovych on Feb. 22. His overthrow followed months of mass protests, but the actual coup was spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias that overran government buildings and forced Yanukovych’s officials to flee.

In recognition of the key role played by the neo-Nazis, who are ideological descendants of Ukrainian militias that collaborated with the Nazi SS in World War II, the new regime gave these far-right nationalists control of several ministries, including the office of national security which is under the command of longtime neo-Nazi activist Andriy Parubiy.[See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass.”]

It was this same Parubiy whom the Post writers turned to seeking more information condemning the eastern Ukrainian rebels and the Russians regarding the Malaysia Airlines catastrophe. Parubiy accused the rebels in the vicinity of the crash site of destroying evidence and conducting a cover-up, another theme that resonated through the MSM.

Without bothering to inform readers of Parubiy’s unsavory neo-Nazi background, the Post quoted him as a reliable witness declaring: “It will be hard to conduct a full investigation with some of the objects being taken away, but we will do our best.”

In contrast to Parubiy’s assurances, the Kiev regime actually has a terrible record of telling the truth or pursuing serious investigations of human rights crimes. Still left open are questions about the identity of snipers who on Feb. 20 fired on both police and protesters at the Maidan, touching off the violent escalation that led to Yanukovych’s ouster. Also, the Kiev regime has failed to ascertain the facts about the death-by-fire of scores of ethnic Russians in the Trade Union Building in Odessa on May 2. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Burning Ukraine’s Protesters Alive.”]

The Kiev regime also duped the New York Times (and apparently the U.S. State Department) when it disseminated photos that supposedly showed Russian military personnel inside Russia and then later inside Ukraine. After the State Department endorsed the “evidence,” the Times led its newspaper with this story on April 21, but it turned out that one of the key photos supposedly shot in Russia was actually taken in Ukraine, destroying the premise of the story. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “NYT Retracts Ukraine Photo Scoop.”]

But here we are yet again with the MSM relying on unverified claims being made by the Kiev regime about something as sensitive as whether Russia provided sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles – capable of shooting down high-flying civilian aircraft – to poorly trained eastern Ukrainian rebels.

This charge is so serious that it could propel the world into a second Cold War and conceivably – if there are more such miscalculations – into a nuclear confrontation. These moments call for the utmost in journalistic professionalism, especially skepticism toward propaganda from biased parties.

Yet, what Americans have seen again is the major U.S. news outlets, led by the Washington Post and the New York Times, publishing the most inflammatory of articles based largely on unreliable Ukrainian officials and on the U.S. State Department which was a principal instigator of the Ukraine crisis. In the recent past, this sort of sloppy American journalism has led to mass slaughters in Iraq – and has contributed to near U.S. wars on Syria and Iran – but now the stakes are much higher. As much fun as it is to heap contempt on a variety of “designated villains,” such as Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, Ali Khamenei and now Vladimir Putin, this sort of recklessness is careening the world toward a very dangerous moment, conceivably its last.


Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s.

http://riseuptimes.org/2014/07/22/robert-perry-what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
 
The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry.

July 20, 2014

In the heat of the U.S. media’s latest war hysteria – rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin – there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere – with key questions not being asked or answered. The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose?

Instead, the Post’s Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung wrote from Kiev: “The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jetliner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“‘We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,’ the official said. U.S. intelligence was ‘starting to get indications … a little more than a week ago’ that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official” whose identity was withheld by the Post so the official would discuss intelligence matters.

But catch the curious vagueness of the official’s wording: “we do believe”; “starting to get indications.” Are we supposed to believe – and perhaps more relevant, do the Washington Post writers actually believe – that the U.S. government with the world’s premier intelligence services can’t track three lumbering trucks each carrying large mid-range missiles?

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system is “Russian-made,” a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated.

However, to use the “Russian-made” point to suggest that the Russians must have been involved in the shoot-down is misleading at best and clearly designed to influence ill-informed Americans. As the Post and other news outlets surely know, the Ukrainian military also operates Russian-made military systems, including Buk anti-aircraft batteries, so the manufacturing origin has no probative value here.

Relying on the Ukraine Regime

Much of the rest of the known case against Russia comes from claims made by the Ukrainian regime, which emerged from the unconstitutional coup d’etat against elected President Viktor Yanukovych on Feb. 22. His overthrow followed months of mass protests, but the actual coup was spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias that overran government buildings and forced Yanukovych’s officials to flee.

In recognition of the key role played by the neo-Nazis, who are ideological descendants of Ukrainian militias that collaborated with the Nazi SS in World War II, the new regime gave these far-right nationalists control of several ministries, including the office of national security which is under the command of longtime neo-Nazi activist Andriy Parubiy.[See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass.”]

It was this same Parubiy whom the Post writers turned to seeking more information condemning the eastern Ukrainian rebels and the Russians regarding the Malaysia Airlines catastrophe. Parubiy accused the rebels in the vicinity of the crash site of destroying evidence and conducting a cover-up, another theme that resonated through the MSM.

Without bothering to inform readers of Parubiy’s unsavory neo-Nazi background, the Post quoted him as a reliable witness declaring: “It will be hard to conduct a full investigation with some of the objects being taken away, but we will do our best.”

In contrast to Parubiy’s assurances, the Kiev regime actually has a terrible record of telling the truth or pursuing serious investigations of human rights crimes. Still left open are questions about the identity of snipers who on Feb. 20 fired on both police and protesters at the Maidan, touching off the violent escalation that led to Yanukovych’s ouster. Also, the Kiev regime has failed to ascertain the facts about the death-by-fire of scores of ethnic Russians in the Trade Union Building in Odessa on May 2. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Burning Ukraine’s Protesters Alive.”]

The Kiev regime also duped the New York Times (and apparently the U.S. State Department) when it disseminated photos that supposedly showed Russian military personnel inside Russia and then later inside Ukraine. After the State Department endorsed the “evidence,” the Times led its newspaper with this story on April 21, but it turned out that one of the key photos supposedly shot in Russia was actually taken in Ukraine, destroying the premise of the story. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “NYT Retracts Ukraine Photo Scoop.”]

But here we are yet again with the MSM relying on unverified claims being made by the Kiev regime about something as sensitive as whether Russia provided sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles – capable of shooting down high-flying civilian aircraft – to poorly trained eastern Ukrainian rebels.

This charge is so serious that it could propel the world into a second Cold War and conceivably – if there are more such miscalculations – into a nuclear confrontation. These moments call for the utmost in journalistic professionalism, especially skepticism toward propaganda from biased parties.

Yet, what Americans have seen again is the major U.S. news outlets, led by the Washington Post and the New York Times, publishing the most inflammatory of articles based largely on unreliable Ukrainian officials and on the U.S. State Department which was a principal instigator of the Ukraine crisis. In the recent past, this sort of sloppy American journalism has led to mass slaughters in Iraq – and has contributed to near U.S. wars on Syria and Iran – but now the stakes are much higher. As much fun as it is to heap contempt on a variety of “designated villains,” such as Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, Ali Khamenei and now Vladimir Putin, this sort of recklessness is careening the world toward a very dangerous moment, conceivably its last.


Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s.

http://riseuptimes.org/2014/07/22/robert-perry-what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
It's funny and sad when sidding with international law is a bias. Those troops sitting in Crimea are not Ukrainian. The folks leading the "rebellion" are Russian State Security officers.
 
Do you know where the story of "tampering" and removal of dead bodies comes from? Kiev.
And from the families of survivors. They've tried calling the cellphones of victims - and had them answered by strangers. From The Independent, quoting a news report from the Netherlands:

============
Grieving relatives calling the mobile phones of victims of the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash have had found the phones being answered by strangers, it has been reported.

Relatives in the Netherlands who dialled the numbers said they were shocked to hear "eastern European-sounding voices" at the other end of the line, according to De Telegraaf, appearing to confirm that looting has taken place on the crash site.
=================
There is a difference between speculation and fact, rumor and confirmed fact.
Indeed.
 
Ukraine has no economy apart from trade with Russia. It's citizens are eligible for Russian citizenship. They speak Russian. Russia and Ukraine were part of the same country not too long ago. Ukraine is currently under questionable leadership after a coup of questionable legality. What's so wrong with taking over?

I was speaking in the sense of international law, in favor of the principle that national sovereignty has to be respected. Ukraine is currently defined under its 1990 declaration of independence and the declaration the next year which dissolved the Soviet Union. Similarly Putin is bound by the terms of the dissolution of the USSR. While it's true that they share a lot of cultural heritage with Russians, they were for most of modern history considered a separate nation, even when they rarely enjoyed true independence from foreign powers. And you might just as well argue that the Poles should intervene, since they actually spent more time under Polish domination than the fairly recent incorporation into the Soviet Union.

But Putin and his henchmen aren't in this for the benefit of aggrieved Ukrainians (beginning with their outrage over rigged elections). No, the Russians are merely exploiting the chaos of what we might even call a failed state, for reasons that are entirely selfish. I have to admit I am intrigued by the bullshit the Russian citizens are swallowing, and wondering how long this will persist, given that they have free access to outside information through the web, suggesting that at some point the scales might fall from their eyes. It seems to compare to the way the Tea Party began, completely founded on bullshit, yet gathering considerable grassroots support by pandering to idiots.

It's hard to imagine that Russia could possibly fix what's broken, and yet by tampering with this volatile country in the throes of civil war they are wreaking havoc. The separatist complaints most often heard, like outrage over the earlier rigged elections, or discrimination against Russian Ukrainians, pale in comparison to the scale of violence that's been unfolding. The only motivation that seems to have real consequences is that dissolution of the Republic and annexing of Eastern Ukraine by Russia is perceived to bring better economic health to the East, whereas joining the European Union, they believe, does no good for them. That's a pretty lame reason to take up an armed revolt. Obviously there is a lot more to the story which fomented the violence, but now the world will forever look at them with a certain loathing which is entirely detrimental to their alleged pursuit of self determination.
 
How? They are fighting with Kiev not the West.
They just shot down an airplane out of their western sky full of Western Europeans. They have reacted to the massacre like monsters, with no respect for expectations of the world that they would treat the massacre as a crime, assisting in apprehending the perpetrators, and with no effort to secure the crime scene and expediently and promptly remove the corpses, understanding that otherwise they would immediately begin to rot. Nor did they arrange for a cease fire from the central government in the interest of preserving the crime scene and giving forensic examiners prompt access to the site with reasonable assurances they would not be caught in the cross fire or otherwise harmed. Instead they shot over the heads of foreign investigators to keep them away from the scene, and resumed hostilities with the government knowing full well this would hinder the crime scene analysis, after the government tendered an offer for a cease fire. In another era this kind of deliberate intent to do harm would have been answered with a declaration of war. So yes, they are in effect waging war with the West.

If the West attempts to force Eastern Ukraine to remain a part of a union of which they choose not to belong then its the West interfering with them, not the other way around.
Since that's not happening it's all moot. What's not moot is that Russian operatives are controlling the rebellion. That's why you should be up in arms about actual Russian intervention, not some hypothetical which has no basis in fact. For someone so concerned about evidence, you should be more concerned about the actual facts in play rather than imagined scenarios. Unless of course you're just here to defend the bad guys or to pick an argument with anyone who replies to you.

Where is the evidence of "desecrated bodies"
It's presently in the Netherlands in advanced stages of decomposition. Who knows where the contents of the purses and wallets is.

and "tampered evidence"?
see your admission immediately below

International authorities say the evidence is intact (black box).
IOW you admit that the rebels disturbed the crime scene.

As for the "mounting evidence" news agencies offer a different version of reality "Evidence gathered by US intelligence officials suggests pro-Russian separatists launched the SA-11 surface-to-air missile that blew up the Malaysia Airlines flight on Thursday, BUT IT REMAINS UNCLEAR "WHO PULLED THE TRIGGER" AND WHY".
That could mean anything. To me it doesn't mean there is any doubt the rebels fired a missile (or two), it just means they don't know which individuals from within their ranks did it, and which leaders either ordered it or enabled it to happen. But that doesn't even begin to address the issue of mounting evidence which includes:
-US reports of missile launch detection
-failure of the Russians to confirm or deny missile launch detection
-cell phone intercepts of rebel leader "the demon" naming "the Cossacks" who fired the missile
-eyewitness video of an SA-11 mobile launcher, minus two missiles from its battery, being driven in the vicinity of the crime scene, which has been hidden or taken to Russia
-corroboration by an NPR reporter who had just interviewed "the Demon" that this was his voice in the above mentioned intercept
-corroboration by an amateur that the feature data (e.g. landmarks) in the videos of the mobile launchers match the actual features of the alleged coordinates (for example he tracked down the billboard owner who corroborated that this was his billboard and this was the same site alleged by the witness who shot the video)

And so on. That's what I meant by mounting evidence.

How is it you know more than the investigating authorities, Dutch government and US intelligence officials?
How is it that you know less than what is being reported by public media like BBC and NPR?

I bet you still think Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.
I bet you go bust the first few minutes you're at poker table.

Show me the article that says it knows in fact that bodies were desecrated.
Your pals have a Russian leader named Borodai who admits he left the bodies to rot for three days before piling them onto the train cars. This is one reason why the Dutch were expressing outrage. Another is that the locals were rummaging through the passengers' personal effects. Borodai is dripping with guilt, never once expressing any emotion over the pain his people have inflicted on innocent victims. Of course he blames everyone except himself and his accomplices. They will probably use that interview in the future to illustrate the classic symptoms of psychopathy.

You can look up the last interview with him. I think it was done by BBC.

I know bodies were removed and put in freezers and then handed over to authorities but maybe the National Inquirer knows more than the NYTimes.
I wouldn't know. I was following BBC and NPR, and did a little browsing for facts. I don't have much use for your preferred sources.

The rest of what you have written is just nonsense unworthy of intelligent discourse since you are simply posing an attitude without a shred of analysis.
What I wrote was my analysis. I enumerated half a dozen examples of Russian and separatist guilt that are specific enough to engage a discussion with anyone who has about a high school level of education in world history and current events. Sorry if it went over your head, I may have overestimated your level of preparation. My bad. :)
 
Putin should be held responsible for the actions of his troops.

Obama should be held responsible for the actions of his secret agencies. They started this civilian war in Ukraine all to push their arms sales agendas and weaken Russia's control.
 
They just shot down an airplane out of their western sky full of Western Europeans. They have reacted to the massacre like monsters, with no respect for expectations of the world that they would treat the massacre as a crime, assisting in apprehending the perpetrators, and with no effort to secure the crime scene and expediently and promptly remove the corpses,

That is what Western media want you to believe, that the rebels are "terrorists", that the Kiev government is all doing the "right thing", that the plane was shot down by rebels, and that rebels are "preventing" the internation committee from finding out the truth.

In reality things are much different. Rebels are Ukrainians just like the armies bombing Donbass region right now, the only difference is that these Ukranian government armies are controlled currently by the US advisors and NATO. The plane meanwhile was shot down by the Ukraine army forces, but CNN is already lying about "mounting evidences" stating otherwise. Rebels have been securing the site of crash to prevent the Ukraine army from gaining access and altering the data. At some point all the lies told by the West will come crumbling down and their neverending backdoor ***t they keep on doing in other countries will come to a halt.
 
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