More Ukrainian Events

youreyes said:
Russians also visit most countries, including Ukraine. We do our grocery shopping as well.
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We were talking about one individual. And he didn't enter the country uninvited and with an army to illegally seize Ukrainian land as you Russians did on your grocery shopping outing. And Brennan left after a few days. You Russians have not left.
 
youreyes said:
sure delusional.

"Why CIA director Brennan visited Kiev in Ukraine"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikka...ted-kiev-in-ukraine-the-covert-war-has-begun/

Why?

To buy some ukranian chocolates for the weekend grocery shopping of course. :cool:
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Forbes is questioning the same thing but it doesn't mean their assessment is accurate

Ukraine is on the brink of civil war, Vladimir Putin has said, and he should know because the country is already in the midst of a covert intelligence war. Over the weekend, CIA director John Brennan travelled to Kiev, nobody knows exactly why, but some speculate that he intends to open US intelligence resources to Ukrainian leaders about real-time Russian military maneuvers. The US has, thus far, refrained from sharing such knowledge because Moscow is believed to have penetrated much of Ukraine’s communications systems – and Washington isn’t about to hand over its surveillance secrets to the Russians.

If you have any doubts that the battle is raging on the ‘covert ops’ front just consider today’s events in Pcholkino where Ukrainian soldiers from the 25th Airborn Division handed over their weapons and APC’s to pro-Russian militiamen and pretty much surrendered. The Ukrainian commander was quoted as saying “they’ve captured us and are using dirty tricks”. This is the kind of morale-busting incident that can spread quickly. It doesn’t happen spontaneously and it often begins with mixed messages, literally – messages purporting to come from the chain of command but actually originate from the enemy’s dirty tricks department.

So what kind of conversations did Brennan have during his visit? There’s no way of knowing for sure of course. But, according to my sources, and based on my experience of reporting on the Russian invasion of Georgia, the US-Ukraine information exchange would go a lot further than simply tracking numbers and motions of Russian tanks and soldiers. The operative term here is ‘non-lethal’ help – that remains Washington’s official position. http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikka...ted-kiev-in-ukraine-the-covert-war-has-begun/
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Reuters report major Russian irregular commander admits they had Buk missle systems which were sent back to Mother Russia after the airliner incident.
 
joepistole said:
Reuters report major Russian irregular commander admits they had Buk missle systems which were sent back to Mother Russia after the airliner incident.
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pay anyone thousands of dollars, they will say anything. Meanwhile the official investigation is on its way.
 
youreyes said:
pay anyone thousands of dollars, they will say anything. Meanwhile the official investigation is on its way.
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Pay them ten times more and they will lie for the other side then? It's too late.

Money can not alter the videos posted on the web by locals. There is certain feature data that can not be faked (landmarks like certain buildings, roads, trees and billboards, etc.) Your boys are guilty, and so is your dastardly leader.

You're just in denial, like most of Russian citizens, unable to break out of the Matrix you've built around all the Soviet-style indoctrination that Putin has resurrected. You just want to believe that, deep down, Russia has restored itself from the sins of its past. And it almost did before he put a stop to it. One thing is for sure: this incident will wake some of you guys out of your sleep--once you realize that some evidence just can't be faked. Maybe some of your comrades will even take to the streets and strike up another revolution. Once they realize they need to throw the bums out--beginning with Putin--you'll be eating all of the tripe you're posting here.
 
Even if Russia is the source of the missiles, and the separatists are responsible, it was clearly an accident. It's not in their interest (but perhaps in Ukraine's) to shoot down a passenger jet.
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Technically it is not since in a downed airliner you are not going to find the evidence of who and why from the remains of dead bodies.
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?? Bodies with missile fragments or burns from the explosion could indeed shed light on how it was brought down. Such evidence was used to determine that TW Flight 800 was not brought down by a missile.
The actual boxes themselves were handed over by the rebels untampered. If they wanted to destroy evidence they would have destroyed the boxes.
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Looks like Putin started to sweat and made a few phone calls. But in any case a black box will just show a sudden loss of power and signal. There is no "number of missiles detected" parameter in a FDR data stream, nor are there any threat receivers in a civilian cockpit that might be captured on a CVR. The actual determination of the cause of the crash will likely have to await a physical examination of the wreckage.
 
youreyes said:
pay anyone thousands of dollars, they will say anything. Meanwhile the official investigation is on its way.
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Well that is how the press works in Mother Russia. But that isn't how it works in the West (Fox News excepted).
 
spidergoat said:
Even if Russia is the source of the missiles, and the separatists are responsible, it was clearly an accident. It's not in their interest (but perhaps in Ukraine's) to shoot down a passenger jet.
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At least one transcript indicates that it may not have been; a local commander is identified as saying "they were carrying spies" - indicating it may well have been an intentional shootdown to stop the spying.
 
spidergoat said:
Even if Russia is the source of the missiles, and the separatists are responsible, it was clearly an accident. It's not in their interest (but perhaps in Ukraine's) to shoot down a passenger jet.
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The whole reason why Ukraine illegitimate forces had this missile hit the civilian aircraft was to discredit the rebels and have them labeled as "terrorists" in international community. The civilian aircraft was purposely changed course to an area of warzone. It's like Nazis putting an innocent child in the middle of the warzone and making sure he is used as a human shield and will get hit and than going to international community and saying "its their bullet that killed them, bomb them".
 
joepistole said:
Well that is how the press works in Mother Russia. But that isn't how it works in the West (Fox News excepted).
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it works the same way in West, except for sale are peoples lives overseas through massive arms sales and petrolium resources access.
 
spidergoat said:
Even if Russia is the source of the missiles, and the separatists are responsible, it was clearly an accident. It's not in their interest (but perhaps in Ukraine's) to shoot down a passenger jet.
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That seems to be tack the US is taking today. There might be some intel behind it and/or it may be a political capitulation of some sort. If the separatists launched it, then I imagine it was a combination of evil intent and gross negligence. This is why Russia's exacerbation of certain conflicts, by throwing high tech arms onto the fire, is so deplorable. And in any case, the separatists seem to have been celebrating afterwards, as if, in their hearts, they are already at war with the West (the flight was out of the West at least).

The SA-11 was once a leading edge missile, capable of counteracting the defense systems on military aircraft. It's a huge overkill for a commercial airliner which has no such countermeasures onboard. For this reason alone it would seem like a misfire of some kind, and I suppose we might even be hearing excuses of this kind once there are perpetrators in custody, ratting out their comrades in a plea bargain of some sort. If it ever comes to that.

Either way Putin has a lot of explaining to do. He's in deep shit with the NATO countries, and where else but the homeland of the World Court, to light this fire of public outrage, and perhaps finally force his hand. Either that, or I suppose he just goes more hardline on us. But this is not the same world as it was when hardliners got their way. People are smarter, or at least they're able to get the news now fairly transparently, and the goals of all the parties concerned are heavily dictated by economic interests. But I suspect the Dutch will increasingly advocate for justice, so it would seem that something's got to give. Until then, it's hard to imagine that Russia won't become isolated, either that or maybe Putin becomes isolated. I think that mostly depends on whether the the average Russian wakes up and smells the propaganda.
 
billvon said:
?? Bodies with missile fragments or burns from the explosion could indeed shed light on how it was brought down. Such evidence was used to determine that TW Flight 800 was not brought down by a missile.

Looks like Putin started to sweat and made a few phone calls. But in any case a black box will just show a sudden loss of power and signal. There is no "number of missiles detected" parameter in a FDR data stream, nor are there any threat receivers in a civilian cockpit that might be captured on a CVR. The actual determination of the cause of the crash will likely have to await a physical examination of the wreckage.
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And yet they have the bodies. Do you think they were sifting through and getting all the bodies with showing "evidence"?

Show evidence Putin made phone calls. What we know is that the rebels didn't want to hand over any evidence to their enemies in Kiev nor the supporters of their enemies which is why they handed it over to Malaysian authorities they find to be 'objective'. The Dutch government said it “would hold off assigning blame as it pursues its top priorities of recovering the victims’ bodies and conducting an independent investigation of the crash site in eastern Ukraine.” I suggest you do the same.
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
And yet they have the bodies. Do you think they were sifting through and getting all the bodies with showing "evidence"?

Show evidence Putin made phone calls. What we know is that the rebels didn't want to hand over any evidence to their enemies in Kiev nor the supporters of their enemies which is why they handed it over to Malaysian authorities they find to be 'objective'. The Dutch government said it “would hold off assigning blame as it pursues its top priorities of recovering the victims’ bodies and conducting an independent investigation of the crash site in eastern Ukraine.” I suggest you do the same.
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And the Malaysian authorities promptly turned the black boxes over to their "enemies" for analysis. Further Royal Dutch Shell has invested heavily in Mother Russian oil fields. Royal Dutch would be devastated by Russian sanctions. Royal Dutch has said it would do anything to thwart sanctions on Russia. But even so, the mood in the Netherlands is changing and the evidence continues to grow. Last year Royal Dutch Shell had revenues of 451 billion, that is more than half of the Dutch GDP.
 
youreyes said:
The whole reason why Ukraine illegitimate forces had this missile hit the civilian aircraft was to discredit the rebels and have them labeled as "terrorists" in international community. The civilian aircraft was purposely changed course to an area of warzone. It's like Nazis putting an innocent child in the middle of the warzone and making sure he is used as a human shield and will get hit and than going to international community and saying "its their bullet that killed them, bomb them".
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Except, like the many other conspiracies Putin has attempted to float to cover his ass, you don't have a shred of evidence to support that claim.
 
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