More Ukrainian Events

pjdude1219 said:
yes but attached to fire control radar.
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Doesn't the US claim that fire control radar was used in this case? The missiles could also have been fired without radar, with less chance of success. Or perhaps it wasn't shot down at all, could have been mechanical failure.
 
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spidergoat said:
You don't know that. Ukraine has the same weapons.
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So you are with the conspiracy nuts who think Ukraine is deliberately shooting down its own air force. I don't suppose you have any evidence to back up your conspiracy? Putin has not yet given aircraft to his irregular forces operating in the Ukraine. The only things flying in the Ukraine besides birds are civilian aircraft and Ukrainian military aircraft.
 
joepistole said:
So you are with the conspiracy nuts who think Ukraine is deliberately shooting down its own air force. I don't suppose you have any evidence to back up your conspiracy? Putin has not yet given aircraft to his irregular forces operating in the Ukraine. The only things flying in the Ukraine besides birds are civilian aircraft and Ukrainian military aircraft.
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Since there is scant evidence for either scenario, perhaps we should withhold judgement.
 
spidergoat said:
Since there is scant evidence for either scenario, perhaps we should withhold judgement.
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Oh there is plenty of evidence. Some people like yourself just choose to ignore it, and believe basesless conspiracy theories instead like Ukrainians deliberately shooting down their own air forces.
 
joepistole said:
Oh there is plenty of evidence. Some people like yourself just choose to ignore it, and believe basesless conspiracy theories instead like Ukrainians deliberately shooting down their own air forces.
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I'm withholding judgement. I would not put it passed Ukraine to shoot down MH-17 deliberately in order to pull NATO into the conflict.
 
spidergoat said:
I'm withholding judgement. I would not put it passed Ukraine to shoot down MH-17 deliberately in order to pull NATO into the conflict.
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The US has corroberated Ukraine with radar, phone and satellite data. And you think Ukraine is shooting down its air forces too? You, like your conspiracy friends, ignore evidence to nurture your conspiracy theories.

And the leaders of the "rebellion" are Russian state security officers. That is a fact.
 
spidergoat said:
Doesn't the US claim that fire control radar was used in this case? The missiles could also have been fired without radar, with less chance of success. Or perhaps it wasn't shot down at all, could have been mechanical failure.
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The weapons system has built in radar system for fire control it can't distinguish between military and civilian aircraft it needs to be tied into more sophisticated systems to check for that
 
spidergoat said:
Doesn't the US claim that fire control radar was used in this case? The missiles could also have been fired without radar, with less chance of success. Or perhaps it wasn't shot down at all, could have been mechanical failure.
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True. Or maybe the separatists fired their missile at that Russian bomber sent to kill kids, and the bomber intentionally led the missile into the Malaysian flight, then disappeared. Or perhaps a duck got loose in the control cabin of the missile site and launched the missile.

In cases such as this, Occam's Razor generally applies.
 
Bells said:
Why would the Ukraine fire or even use such missiles against an aircraft when it is clear the drunken twats they are fighting against do not even have any aircraft? While the rebels have openly boasted about shooting down that plane, as well as several others in the weeks prior to that.

I find it astounding that you declare that you support an independent investigation, but you are openly defending the drunken murderous fucktards who are using force and threat of force to impede, harass and threaten the independent and international investigators?


You read the Moscow Times. Which is well known to cater to and dance to the tune set by the Government. Truth? What's that!

If Russia wants to find the guilty, then perhaps they should instruct their guard dogs to heel so that the independent investigators can access the site and actually start investigating.

And yet, investigators are still being threatened and harassed in their attempts to perform their duties and they are still being denied access to investigate the crime scene. Worse still, the murderers you are so avidly defending are removing evidence, tampering with the evidence and allowing all and sundry to walk across, on and through a crime scene, while denying investigators access.. I saw one video footage today of rebels hacking apart parts of the plane and disturbing the crime scene. So you all want an IACA international investigation, but you deny any access, destroy, disturb the evidence? How exactly does that compute?

They have the black box. Why haven't they handed it over to the investigators yet? Why hasn't Putin joined the chorus of condemnation for the rebels for refusing access to investigators? Why hasn't he expressed disgust at the wilful destruction and tampering of evidence by the rebels?

See, your little fingers are saying he wants one thing, but he does the complete opposite.
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But there is no evidence of the destruction of evidence at the site




...Investigators hoped two flight recorders, which have been recovered from the crash site and sent to Britain for analysis, would help to shed light on the disaster that killed all 298 on board.
LATE ON WEDNESDAY, INVESTIGATORS FROM THE DUTCH SAFETY BOARD SAID THAT THE DATE OF THE COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER WAS INTACT AND HAD NOT BEEN TAMPERED WITH.
Evidence gathered by US intelligence officials suggests pro-Russian separatists launched the SA-11 surface-to-air missile that blew up the Malaysia Airlines flight on Thursday, BUT IT REMAINS UNCLEAR "WHO PULLED THE TRIGGER" AND WHY.http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europ...-missiles-downed-jets-201472316127947474.html
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Reported by Australian news

Pro-Russian separatists have handed over the two black boxes of flight MH17 to Malaysian authorities in Donetsk The handover came after Malaysia's prime minister Najib Razak secured a deal with rebel commander Alexander Borodai, which also included guaranteed safe access for independent investigators to the crash site. Both sides signed a document at the headquarters of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, which Mr Borodai said was a protocol to finalise the handover.

Colonel Mohamed Sakri, from the Malaysian National Security Council, said at the meeting the two black boxes were "in good condition".

"I can see that the black boxes are intact, although a bit damaged," he said..http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...ysia-airlines-black-boxes-to-malaysia/5613460
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Those black boxes were handed over by the pro russian rebels. I find it interesting that even US intelligence officials say they don't know who or why but yet you and a few other's here are insistent that the assumption of guilt is evidence of guilt. You call the rebels "drunken" but it seems you are the one who is drunk on the cool aid. What's wrong with waiting until they actually have hard evidence as opposed to each side simply blaming each other?
 
billvon said:
Well, there is evidence of looting by pro-Russian forces. It remains to be seen if anything was destroyed rather than just stolen, but still - a bad sign.
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Looting is not the same as tampering with evidence which investigators (both Western and Malaysian) denies has happened.
 
joepistole said:
The US has corroberated Ukraine with radar, phone and satellite data. And you think Ukraine is shooting down its air forces too? You, like your conspiracy friends, ignore evidence to nurture your conspiracy theories.

And the leaders of the "rebellion" are Russian state security officers. That is a fact.
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Separate incidents. And I bet you wouldn't be accepting of the official line if we were using it as justification for an invasion. The evidence is circumstantial.
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Looting is not the same as tampering with evidence which investigators (both Western and Malaysian) denies has happened.
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Well, technically it is since the crash site is evidence of what happened. But it remains to be seen if they were just going after money/jewelry/personal effects/drugs or actually trying to remove evidence that might point to them.
 
billvon said:
Well, technically it is since the crash site is evidence of what happened. But it remains to be seen if they were just going after money/jewelry/personal effects/drugs or actually trying to remove evidence that might point to them.
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Technically it is not since in a downed airliner you are not going to find the evidence of who and why from the remains of dead bodies. The actual boxes themselves were handed over by the rebels untampered. If they wanted to destroy evidence they would have destroyed the boxes.
 
spidergoat said:
Separate incidents. And I bet you wouldn't be accepting of the official line if we were using it as justification for an invasion. The evidence is circumstantial.
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That doesn't make it any less valid. Fingerprints are circumstancial evidence too. Everyday, hundreds, thousands of people are convicted solely on circumstancial evidence. There is only one truth. Retribution is irellevant, only the truth is relevant.
 
joepistole said:
That doesn't make it any less valid. Fingerprints are circumstancial evidence too. Everyday, hundreds, thousands of people are convicted solely on circumstancial evidence. There is only one truth. Retribution is irellevant, only the truth is relevant.
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And every day, governments lie.
 
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